The Skunk Works

HDE 226868

00:15

@Fred suggested that the pro-tem mods nomination post should have a title change indicating that it's completed and/or closure. What should the close reason be?

user41796

03:32

@HDE226868 meh

user41796

But where was said comment?

Trevor Archibald

13:25

I am also "meh" on closing that

If suddenly a bunch of people decide to nominate people in a couple weeks, we can close it. I think it'll die on its own though.

dcorking

14:59

@HDE226868 Did any of the controversy around Keystone Phase 4 relate to engineering questions?

@GlenH7 is there a meta.SE about immediate and significant harm?

Trevor Archibald

15:29

@dcorking You mean questions about significantly dangerous situations?

dcorking

@TrevorArchibald yes - like the homemade pipe reactor

user41796

5

Q: Potentially dangerous and harmful (physically) activity related questions action

I've encountered a question describing a harmful (with a potential of lethal or health affecting results to people) activity. And I am wondering how possibly action can be taken to prevent it, in case the person continuing with this activity. The question I am talking about is here.

user41796

25

Q: Is there a policy on dangerous answers?

I have a pretty active discussion on SO right now, about giving an answer, that could potentially harm the questioner. The question is Do I have to escape sql command when ajax-ing it? and discussion is in comments to my answer. In short, the OP asks for a way to implement a really dangerous th...

discussion answers

dcorking

I too feel a bit queasy about the pipe. No mods answered that question. Is there SE policy?

Trevor Archibald

For one, there's this issue meta.engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/28/…

The SE TOS has a liability disclaimer, putting the responsibility for ensuring their safety on the people acting on the advice given

There are other moral or ethical issues, but I don't think it's a good idea to close those questions, because people who ask them won't take a close as a "don't do it."

HDE 226868

15:33

@dcorking I vaguely recall something, but I don't remember anything definite.

dcorking

That disclaimer protects those with a contract with SE. It doesn't protect ordinary users.

Trevor Archibald

I think it's better to answer the question by saying "BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL" and notifying them of the most dangerous parts of their plan

HDE 226868

@GlenH7 Said comment was below the main post. I'm not sure if Fred deleted it.

dcorking

Anyway - I am not so concerned about legal liability than moral responsibility for encouraging or enabling harm.

Trevor Archibald

@dcorking It includes "members"

dcorking

15:35

I tend to go with Mad Scientists's idea of 'dont answer' but I think we could go further and declare questions about homemade high energy devices as off topic.

user41796

@dcorking Trevor touched upon this too, but site users are covered under the SE TOS as well.

Trevor Archibald

My thought is, either they don't get an answer and do something stupid, or they get an answer that warns them of the danger. In situations like that, I would shy away from giving exact numbers, because that opens it up to the real world equivalent of copy-paste without knowing what's going on.

dcorking

I didn't see 'members' buried in the TOS - I guess that might apply to us (though what about unregistered posters?)

Trevor Archibald

More an issue than dangerous questions are dangerous answers I think

I'd hope the community would take care of those, but I don't know if an answer being downvoted is enough.

dcorking

A dangerous answer would be worse - a dangerous question closed as off-topic would be mostly harmless.

user41796

15:39

@dcorking by definition, an unregistered user has little to identify them beyond an IP address that's not publicly accessible. Hard to pin anything on anyone when all you have is a set of numbers that may or may not be shared by other people.

dcorking

There are certainly many dangerous answers to that question - certainly any that skips over how difficult it is to design pressure relief for two-phase mixtures.

user41796

@TrevorArchibald It becomes a slippery slope

HDE 226868

@dcorking That can apply to lots of questions, come to think of it.

dcorking

IP address and a geolocation can be had with a sub-poena. In some countries, suits can be filed against John Does with IP addresses. (I don't know who has to respond to the summons.)

user41796

All of the examples I can think of off-hand are specific to technique like working with tablesaws or working with energized lines. But some answers require approaches with an increased risk of danger.

Trevor Archibald

15:42

@GlenH7 It really does. How do we decide what's a dangerous answer, and how dangerous does it have to be before we delete it?

user41796

Precisely. And I don't have a good answer for that question

Trevor Archibald

And there are a LOT of dangerous things in engineering. It's the nature of the field, we're harnessing significant power and energy to do great things, but that comes with risk.

user41796

There are some who almost argue that you need a full suit of armor before you should even consider plugging in a tablesaw. How do we determine reasonable risk on a consistent basis?

dcorking

Most engineering - including hobby electronics - involves a certain amount of taming lethal energy sources.

Trevor Archibald

So maybe this is a time to revisit the disclaimer, not dissolving us of liability, but stating that you need to properly safeguard yourself before doing anything dangerous

user41796

15:44

@dcorking I'm comfortable with the answers provided in our meta question about disclaimers as well as with the linked meta.SE answers. If you're not comfortable with those answers, I'd recommend opening a question on meta.SE about it. And yes, meta.SE as it would be applicable to all SE sites.

Trevor Archibald

brb meeting time

HDE 226868

I seem to recall there was a meta post on Physics after someone asked a question related to creating explosives. It might be interesting to look at. I'll see if I can dig it up.

dcorking

this might put it in better perspective; I wonder if anyone ever blamed a textbook author for enabling them to cause harm.

user41796

absolutely

HDE 226868

What kind of a textbook are we talking about?

user41796

15:54

and in re-reading that question, I think the author is simply trying to do something that requires high pressures. They explicitly state they want a high factor of safety.

dcorking

@HDE226868 an engineering textbook (in our case) but a medical or chemistry textbook would be similarly apt

@GlenH7 (high pressure = high stored energy)

HDE 226868

There would probably be a disclaimer in there somewhere, but people will absolutely blame the author.

dcorking

@GlenH7 (high pressure = high stored energy)

HDE 226868

Whether that blame is just or not is a different story.

dcorking

sure - but if that textbook author lost their engineering licence or academic post as a result of a complaint - it might be relevant. I have never heard of it happening, but in 2015, I would not be too surprised!

HDE 226868

17:03

How do we deal with the questions about this question, given that the user isn't on Engineering?

0

Q: What kind of carbon allotrope coating do I have to give to a plough to make it more efficient?

So I have this situation: I am doing a school project on the usage of carbon allotropes instead of steel, but I recognized a problem: The much lighter weight of carbon allotropes, although stronger, would give the plough less momentum. So the issue is: what kind of coating and on what mass and t...

mechanical-engineering chemical-engineering

Trevor Archibald

17:13

I don't know that there's much we can do

The user should get a notification that their question has been migrated, no?

Trevor Archibald

17:30

The answer to that is yes, and anyone who has answered the question pre-migration gets a notification too.

So it's really the same issue as any other question where the user asks it and never follows up in response to any comments

user41796

17:44

@TrevorArchibald Yes, they'll have received a notification about the migration. Presuming they ever came back to check on their question to begin with. :-)

Trevor Archibald

Right. And that's an issue I don't think we can really fix.

user41796

Nope. But other sites have to deal with that too

user41796

In theory, a mod could always superping them to a room. But that's a bit heavy-handed just to have some clarifying comments addressed

Sam Weston

22:42

@GlenH7 I deleted my question about research, I'm not sure any answer from it would be useful to a wider audience and I was asking mostly from curiosity

user41796

Yeah, I was really struggling to figure out how to make that one constructive

user41796

Short answer is "it depends"

Sam Weston

Yeah I kinda realised that after submitting it

user41796

I've worked a variety of different roles, most recently for a traditional engineering firm

Sam Weston

Oh cool, what was the case there?

user41796

22:43

When I worked for a very large, international software organization, I had to review patents to see if their claims conflicted with the applications we were about the file for

user41796

Other places I've been have been pretty indifferent and just rely on the consultants they hired. :-(

user41796

Current place is patchy

user41796

We do a lot of bids & proposal, so there's a fair amount of work in staying abreast of current field developments and technologies

user41796

but not everyone does that

Sam Weston

@GlenH7 That sounds like hell, did you have to deal with much patent trolling?

user41796

22:45

"meh", I was pretty sheltered from that point of view. I worked in software development and I simply needed to provide a "reasonably skilled in the art" interpretation of the potential conflicting patents

Sam Weston

@GlenH7 That's pretty cool, the company I'm with are trying to do more of that, although I'm the only engineer here xD

user41796

I never ran into any that weren't a distinctly different domain so we were free to file

user41796

but if we did conflict, no biggie. The attorneys go negotiate a licensing deal if necessary

Sam Weston

Ah right, that's really interesting

user41796

That software company got sued a lot, but that was a given with their size

user41796

22:47

Once you get past a certain size, you just need to plan on being sued on a regular basis

Sam Weston

Ha ha, yeah I suppose so

user41796

Current firm is a lot smaller and doesn't get sued anywhere near as much

Sam Weston

'merica

user41796

but they don't do a lot of new patent filings either

Sam Weston

google.com.au/…

relevant

user41796

22:49

yeah, pretty much

user41796

some suits have merit; some don't.

user41796

Never got deposed for them either

user41796

But I knew lots of folk who had

Sam Weston

That's a shame

user41796

depositions aren't all that much

user41796

22:50

attorneys from the outside party are simply trying to find information

user41796

it's nothing like TV / hollywood. Honestly, it's kind of just boring.

Sam Weston

oh ok

user41796

liability stays at the corporate level so individuals aren't really under pressure short of the company going under because of the findings. But that's rather.... extraordinary

Sam Weston

Hey Glen what do you think about the quality of this answer engineering.stackexchange.com/a/696/340

user41796

It's a confused question. :-)

Sam Weston

22:56

ha ha yeah I'm trying to just keep the answer percentage up where ever I can, but I'm not that experienced so, vague answers for vague questions :I

user41796

Assuming they want a horse drawn plough or similar, it seems like an XY problem

Sam Weston

yeah I know right

user41796

They're focusing on solving Y when the problem is really X

user41796

And from that point of view, I think your answer is on the right path to addressing that

Sam Weston

ok great

anyway I gtg, it was good chatting with you glen

user41796

22:58

It's not necessarily the momentum of the plow that that makes it useful - it's the animal's ability to pull it and keep the plow at the right level in the ground

Sam Weston

@GlenH7 My thought too

anyway I'll chat later

user41796

@SamWeston yep

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