Math Mods' Office - 2023-05-07

user977780

19:00

0

Q: Shouldn't it be our responsibility to help him?

Shouldn't it be our responsibility to help him? I am attaching a few of his comments in the chat room (the only way he can communicate with us). He posted a lot of comments, and in every comment, he earnestly asked the moderator to suggest an alternative way. As a spectator, I felt really sorry. ...

Bill Dubuque

19:28

@AlexanderGruber @XanderHenderson There is possibly an issue regarding SV PSQ suspensions not being mentioned as policy - see my comment on this deleted meta question. The EOQS page may need updating...

Xander Henderson

@BillDubuque I think that the policy has always been that you may have your account suspended if you repeatedly engage in behaviour which you are told not to engage in.

Alexander Gruber

has nothing to do with eoqs really

Bill Dubuque

The point is SV PSQs are not mentioned as official policy violations anywhere i am aware of, so this should be corrected

Xander Henderson

And, as @AlexanderGruber says, this is not about EoQS, which a procedure for suspending accounts of answerers.

Bill Dubuque

@XanderHenderson However you want to frame it, it needs to be mentioned as official policy

Xander Henderson

19:31

@BillDubuque I don't understand what "official policy" you believe has been enforced here.

Bill Dubuque

Since when do "qauiity standards" not apply to questions?

Xander Henderson

@BillDubuque This is a non sequitor.

Bill Dubuque

Do you have any intention to address the matter I raised? If not I will not waste any further time...

Xander Henderson

EoQS is a specific procedure meant to limit the rate at which low quality questions are asked by punishing the answerers of those questions. The reason that this was announced as a procedure is because we have not, historically, treated high quality answers to low quality questions as low quality content.

Hence it was reasonable to warn the community that this was coming.

On the other hand, it has always been policy that low-quality content (questions or answers) will be moderated, and that users who consistently post low-quality content may face suspension.

Bill Dubuque

Ok, I hgad not idea that you did not intend EOQS to apply to answers.

Alexander Gruber

19:34

@BillDubuque for the record, you were actually one of the commentors advising the OP to follow SV standards on main

if i'm hearing what you're saying, you're wondering if there's a meta page we can point to outlining guidelines for SV

user977780

This is cruel :)

Bill Dubuque

@AlexanderGruber Of course I know that. But I also belive that to enforce such we need to ensure that users know what the official policy is, e.g. the meta EOQS page

Xander Henderson

106

Q: Enforcement of Quality Standards

Math SE has a long-standing policy regarding what constitutes a Good Question. The policy is intended to ensure that the collection of questions and answers here is of high quality, is searchable, and is generally of use as a long-lasting reference. Historically, we have tried to deal with low-q...

discussion exact-duplicates policy low-quality-posts

> In order to address this dynamic, we will be taking a more active role in moderating the actions of users who post a large number of moderate- to low-quality answers in response to low-quality and/or duplicate questions.

The post is pretty explicit in stating that it is about answers.

Alexander Gruber

@BillDubuque this is the page I've been using to inform people about how to ask SV

user977780

Is his account deleted permanently?

Alexander Gruber

19:38

@user977780 no, he is welcome to come back after his suspension ends.

user977780

@AlexanderGruber Ok.

Bill Dubuque

Ok, I reread the EOQS and it does not specifically address SV PSQs. If you beleive that there is some official policy stating such then please specifically link to it. My point is thagt there should be such, either on that EOQS page or elsewhere

Alexander Gruber

@BillDubuque EoQS is not our only policy page. I'm not sure why you're stuck on that.

Bill Dubuque

@AlexanderGruber I seen no specific link there - that's what I'm stuck on.

Alexander Gruber

why would there be?

Bill Dubuque

19:40

@AlexanderGruber Where is the policy stated?

Alexander Gruber

@BillDubuque in general, there is a policy against low quality questions, and we use this page to discuss how that interfaces with the SV tag.

and keep in mind, this isn't like, a one and done insta-suspend thing. Users have multiple warnings, including friendly nudges towards that page at first.

user977780

@AlexanderGruber Warning for what? Repeatedly PSQ post on mathSE?

Alexander Gruber

@user977780 when users are not conforming to question asking guidelines, in general, whether it is PSQs or otherwise

Bill Dubuque

@AlexanderGruber Where is it stated that the current mod team is enforcing the recommendations in that 12 year old page as policy. My point is that mention of this enformcement should be in EOQS too (or some other high-profile place). If that had been done then issues like this would not arise.

Alexander Gruber

@BillDubuque it's stated in multiple prior mod messages to the user.

user977780

19:51

I think this will change with time and some experience. It is difficult for new users to maintain all the policies, which are themselves ambiguous in some places. It's difficult to follow "how to ask a good question". Some questions seem dumb in the first place, and it may be difficult to expand beyond PSQ.

Alexander Gruber

@user977780 Of course. Absolutely.

Bill Dubuque

This matter is particularly important for SV PSQs since they are far more contentious than normal PSQs, so it is essential that the community has the chance to discuss these matters on meta. Xander often writes that he is elected to perform the will of the community but there is no meta discussion where the community has had the chance to give its feedback on SV PSQ suspensions (since there was no announcement of such).

Alexander Gruber

@user977780 This is why we have so many mods, like me, and experienced users, like Bill, who try to help new users understand how to ask. The vast majority of users take this advice, rather than writing it off as 'only opinion' and continuing to do the same thing.

Bill Dubuque

@AlexanderGruber mod messages to a users do not count as community discussion of the matter.

user977780

Can we replace "suspension" by "suspension over a particular tag"?

Xander Henderson

19:55

@BillDubuque Do you believe that as user who consistently has their questions downvoted and closed should be warned that they need to improve the quality of their questions and, if they do not, that they should be suspended?

Bill Dubuque

That's not the matter I am discussing. Please stay on topic.

user977780

@XanderHenderson You have to make sure that the OP knows the relationship between closed vote or downvote and suspension.

Xander Henderson

@BillDubuque It is absolutely what we are talking about. You are trying to make it about a specific tag, but, without getting into the details of a specific user or moderator action, that isn't the issue. Nobody has been suspended simply for misusing any particular tag.

Alexander Gruber

@user977780 multiple warnings do that.

Xander Henderson

@user977780 Are you assuming that users are suspended without warning?

This sometimes happens, e.g. when a user behaves abusively towards others, or posts a lot of spam, or is otherwise behaving in a manner which requires quick action. However, most suspensions occur after at least one warning.

Bill Dubuque

20:01

@Xander My point is simply that probably most (new) users have no clue that they can be suspended for multiple SV PSQs, because there is no easy to find statement about (current) policy enforcement of such, and the community has widely varying opinions on such (much more so than PSQs) so they won't necessarily be able to infer such from voting or random comments.

user977780

@BillDubuque Even after spending more than one year, I'm not aware of that.

Alexander Gruber

@BillDubuque again, we message them multiple times before any suspension happens, and direct them to the relevant guidelines.

Xander Henderson

@BillDubuque Your assertion rests on the assumption that a user can be suspended for posting multiple solution verification PQSs. I fail to see any evidence that this is a policy which is being enforced. Hence your assertion is built on a faulty assumption.

Bill Dubuque

To be clear (for readers who may not know), I do support enforcement of SV PSQ quality, but I think it needs to be instituted as policy in a fair manner.

Xander Henderson

@BillDubuque You may support such a policy, but no such policy currently exists.

Bill Dubuque

20:05

@XanderHenderson So you will not suspend a user who posts too many SV PSQs?

Xander Henderson

I would not suspend a user simply for posting a lot of questions tagged solution-verification. I would certainly suspend a user (after warning them) for posting a large number of low-quality questions.

Bill Dubuque

Is an SV PSQ low quality?

Xander Henderson

E.g. if a user posts a large number of questions which are ultimately closed and/or downvoted.

@BillDubuque I mean, you keep tacking on the "PSQ" bit. Problem statement questions are, almost by definition, low-quality. I am not sure what is being added by the "SV".

Alexander Gruber

right. it's not about the tag.

Bill Dubuque

C'mon let's not play word games. My above point still stands. Users are being suspended because SV pSQs are deemed low quality one way or another and to be fair (esp. to new users) there should be highly visible official statement of such.

Xander Henderson

20:09

You are simply wrong on the facts, @BillDubuque.

user977780

How do you decide if a question is of low quality? For example, I have posted a question on MO that is only a statement, and I don't have any clue how to approach it. I believe if this question is posted on MSE, it will be closed within a few minutes. So I am curious to know how you decide on a low-quality question. Is every PSQ low quality?

Bill Dubuque

@XanderHenderson I have better things to do than waste futher time playing word games. I think the way you are doing is extremely unfair to the community

Xander Henderson

@user977780 Personally? If it is closed or downvoted, I tend to believe that the community has adjudicated it as low-quality.

Alexander Gruber

@user977780 that's because math.se has a policy on context that is different from MO

Arctic Char

There is a thread on meta on how to ask a good question. If a question does not meet any of the criteria of a good question there, it is quite reasonable to consider it of low quality. A PSQ more or less by definition does not meet any criteria of being a good question.

Xander Henderson

20:15

@BillDubuque You saw a post on Meta which asserted that a user had been suspended simply for posting solution-verification questions, and inferred that moderators are enforcing a policy against such questions. Based on this faulty inference, you are attacking the actions of the moderation team, and demanding that some new policy be invented. You are welcome to feel that this is unfair, but, again, you are wrong on the facts.

user977780

@AlexanderGruber Convinced. I agree as research oriented question may be PSQ some times and MO is a research oriented site.

Bill Dubuque

@ArcticChar This is not about general PSQs but rather SV PSQs, which are much more contentious.

Xander Henderson

@BillDubuque You keep asserting this. It is simply not true. The tag is a red herring.

Arctic Char

@BillDubuque I am just replying to user977780's question "Is every PSQ low quality". I have to admit that I still have no idea what is a SV PSQs. Can you or anyone tell me what that is?

Alexander Gruber

@ArcticChar SV = solution verification

it's a tag

Bill Dubuque

20:18

@XanderHenderson It is not I but rather you that is making a false inference. The meta post made me think about this general matter (independent of how much it applies to that particular case).

Arctic Char

So SV PSQs means a PSQ with the tag SV? @AlexanderGruber

Alexander Gruber

yes

Xander Henderson

@BillDubuque You asserted "Users are being suspended because SV pSQs are deemed low quality one way or another...". This assertion is false, except insofar as users who post large numbers of questions which are downvoted or closed are often suspended, regardless of what tags are applied to those questions.

Are you suggesting that we should have a different policy for solution-verification questions than we have for other tags?

Bill Dubuque

@ArcticChar By "SV PSQ" I mean a solution verification question that is missing necessary SV context, i.e. the precise step of the proof that is being questioned, and why so.

user977780

@XanderHenderson This is dangerous as any one( with a little reputation)can downvote a question.

Alexander Gruber

20:22

@user977780 the important part here is consistency

Bill Dubuque

@XanderHenderson Again you are playing word games. If the reason those questions are being deemed low-quality is because they are SV PSQs then my assertion is true. In any case that is a red herring since my point is to discuss the general matter, not any particular case.

Alexander Gruber

one downvoted question won't get you suspended. A consistent pattern over time of questions that are downvoted and closed will get you suspended (after warnings).

Xander Henderson

@BillDubuque Do you really believe that accusing others of playing games is a healthy form of discussion?

user977780

@AlexanderGruber Convinced.

Xander Henderson

I have been very clear: questions which are downvoted or closed are, generally speaking, regarded as low quality. If a user has a significant number of downvoted or closed questions, it is likely that they will get a warning from the moderation team. If they continue to post questions which are downvoted or closed, it is likely that they will be suspended.

The solution verification tag is utterly irrelevant here.

Bill Dubuque

20:27

@XanderHenderson No it is certainly relevant if those downvotes are because it is a SV PSQ and the user has no clue that their is offical policy against such (and there currently is not)

冥王 Hades

Are different tags more or less susceptible to this?

Alexander Gruber

@冥王Hades to what, low quality questions?

Xander Henderson

@BillDubuque So, essentially, you are arguing that solution verification questions should be handled differently from questions with other tags.

冥王 Hades

@AlexanderGruber Yeah, and subsequently down voted ones

Bill Dubuque

In any case, SV PSQs are a different enough beasts than other PSQs that we should say more about them in policy statements in order to be as fair as possible when it comes to suspensions. I don't understand why there is disagreement about that.

Alexander Gruber

20:35

@冥王Hades i don't have the statistics, but in my experience precalc and calc tags tend to attract low quality questions. but they're also the largest tags so that could be sampling bias.

@BillDubuque Your assertion seems to be that users of the SV tag are suspended while unaware that their questions are low quality. But the questions are heavily downvoted and closed, and they are contacted by mods (without suspension) with guidance on how to ask. They are aware.

Bill Dubuque

In case anyone doesn't remember, when I was a mod I went out of my way to treat everyone as fairly as possible - even engaging in long offline discussions with users to determine the heart of problems in order to help devise good solutions (e.g. the sandbox and reopen request pages). I realize that not everyone has the time to do so, but we should at least strive to do so.

Alexander Gruber

When it comes to suspensions, it's just like any other tag.

@BillDubuque I'm surprised you assume we don't do that. We do.

Bill Dubuque

@AlexanderGruber I was the only mod who did that on my mod team. If yours is better then you are very lucky.

Alexander Gruber

@BillDubuque There have been a lot of improvements since your team. It's been very different for many years.

冥王 Hades

Will I get suspended for laughing or making fun of anither user's suspension?

Bill Dubuque

20:57

@Xander Let's abstract a little and instead of SV PSQs let's consider some other contentious matters such as use of color, or not enough words (mosly math vs natural language). If a few users always downvote negative questions of this sort then would you suspend a user for having many negatively scored questions, even though there are widely varying opinions (and no stated enforced policy) on use of color or too-concise exposition?

Bill Dubuque

21:19

^^^ above is not purely hypothetical since some users do downvote for such (e.g. many of my answers have received downvotes for such, even with comments explaining that as a reason).

冥王 Hades

I can anecdotally attest to being downvoted for not enough words. I often posted answers to geometry problems as mere pictures (as in, proofs without words) and got downvoted for it

Bill Dubuque

@冥王Hades That's not the same as math (vs. natural) language because math notation is rigorous, whereas "proofs by picture" usually are not (though there are some rigorous ways to do so in some contexts, e.g. see Proof theory for linear lattices by Mark Haiman, based on ideas of his teacher G.C. Rota). Scroll through it to see some non-planar proofs.

Maybe someday we'll see "I downvoted this proof because it is non-planar"!

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$Mathematics$ Math Mods' Office