Math Mods' Office - 2021-09-14

9:43 AM

@XanderHenderson: If you're around, could you please help with the flag I just raised about the junk question on the HNQ?

Joe

11:13 AM

@amWhy: I tend to use "I" in questions, and "we" in answers. I do find it a bit odd when someone begins their question with "we need to solve foo"—no, you need to solve foo, and no one else is obliged to help you. This irks me most when the question is a PSQ. On the other hand, it is common in mathematical exposition to use "we"—I find it rather endearing.

Xander Henderson

1:17 PM

@user21820 I believe that I have dealt with it?

user21820

1:31 PM

@XanderHenderson Yes thanks! Sadly, it has already acquired 39 upvotes, probably mostly from the HNQ. It's so ridiculous that these kind of questions are what 'showcases' Math SE to the rest of the network...

And it's also annoying that the asker doesn't even seem to want to learn before making statements, in the last edit still saying it's not about compression...

Xander Henderson

Hay, gaiz! I maked new KOMPRESHUN ALGARHYTHM! Is BESTEST algurthm EVAR!

user21820

Aha I found a comment that says what I want to say:

I haven't voted on this, but if I did, I'd be tempted to downvote because of two things: (1) the question suggests you're completely unaware of some basic principles of information theory (e.g. pigeonhole principle) that would prevent this from working as well as you seem to think it would (2) it also suggests you really think you can beat the performance of other compression algorithms with this approach. To me, that suggest a certain level of arrogance and disdain for existing expertise in this area. I'm sure you didn't intend for it to come across that way, but to me it does. — David Z 14 hours ago

"sending blueprints on how to build something, and relying on the computation and knowledge at the receiving end to fill in the blanks" is compression in the traditional sense — user253751 1 hour ago

Also, I feel that the last edit was also quite arrogant, because the asker said "There is more than one correct answer, and will mark correct the one with the most votes." despite not even having the basic expertise to evaluate the correctness of the answers... But that's a problem with Q&A forums in general. Oh well.

@XanderHenderson It should be "All-go-rhythm".

And it actually reminds me; I think I saw one crank before who really didn't know the spelling of "algorithm" and kept misspelling it.

Xander Henderson

@user21820 I thought it was a dance performed by a former vice president?

Al Gore Rhythm?

(He invented the internets, you know. Very first guy to put together a series of pipes.)

user21820

@XanderHenderson LOL!

The Amplitwist

2:03 PM

Just to clarify, should I avoid flagging a comment suggesting a possible duplicate as "no longer needed" even when the question has been closed as a duplicate of that same link posted in the comment?

amWhy

2:30 PM

@Joe Exactly. Your words describe my own preferences; I also use the inclusive we when teaching.

Xander Henderson

For the record (concerning "we" vs "I"): please do not make edits to change this. Edits should preserve the voice / style of the original question. This is no different than the stricture not to change spelling from AmEng to BrEng (e.g. color to colour, or vice versa).

amWhy

@user21820 both are now deleted.

@XanderHenderson I do not fully agree in some contexts. I will surely refrain from editing that alone, when a question is well asked. But I'm really tired of the diffusion of responsibility among PSQ askers.

Xander Henderson

← 3 messages moved from CURED

(sorry; I put my comment in the wrong place)

@amWhy I don't think that it is a "diffusion of responsibility". They are mimicking the kind of writing which they have seen before. I don't think that we should discouraging this, and I think that the first person singular is strictly worse style than the first person plural (though I would prefer not to use any pronouns at all).

amWhy

E.g., you found it perfectly appropriate, as did I, to discourage one users use of "Preamble, ... , ..., ..." in every post they submitted. But that would be messing with said users "voice."

Xander Henderson

@amWhy But I don't think that I would edit a question to remove that. One can make suggestions in the comments, but taking it upon oneself to edit for style is, in my opinion, a step too far.

I can hate how a question is written (e.g. it comes across as arrogant), but it is not my job to make everyone conform to my own ideas about what "good" mathematical writing should look like.

So yes, discourage users from using the mathematical "we" if it is not appropriate. Encourage them to either take responsibility for their own work, or to remove pronouns entirely. But don't make that unilateral edit yourself. Please.

amWhy

2:43 PM

@XanderHenderson If I am editing other matters (grammar, formatting) and find a clearly awkward attempt to use "we", I might edit that, only when there are other matters to edit. My style is to express gratitude, but SE discourages that. Why do you get to pick and choose what is "personal style/voice" and what is not?

Xander Henderson

(Note: I am not admonishing anyone, and I don't know that anyone is making such edits; I am just trying to be clear about what the editing guidelines are).

@amWhy If the pronouns are making something awkward, then fix them---but I doubt that changing "we" to "I" is generally going to fix that kind of awkwardness.

And it should be done as part of a larger edit---there is no reason to edit a post just to edit the pronouns or remove a salutation or closing.

amWhy

So my requests on CURED, I can speak I can assert, "We discourage that. We must close foo, we must delete fung. Or "@Xander, we are having trouble following your reasoning. I can surely address mods by making requests: We are wondering why... " etc. Be careful what you ask for.

Xander Henderson

@amWhy Are your requests in CURED meant to mimic the style of mathematical exposition? Is your use of "we" in CURED the inclusive / mathematical "we"?

If so, go for it.

But I think that there is a clear difference between the intended audience and (for lack of a better word) "formality" of a post on the main site, and a comment in chat.

amWhy

@XanderHenderson Why not mathematical exposition? Because you condone the use of We in PSQs, which is never mathematical exposition.

Xander Henderson

@amWhy I feel like we are going in circles here. Again, askers have learned that the mathematical "we" is often used. They are mimicking that style. Why assume that they are intentionally trying to remove responsibility from themselves? That seems to be the least charitable explanation.

amWhy

2:51 PM

PSQ's are informal, like comments, and often ludicrous. If they show work using "we then integrate"... I have no problem with that.

user21820

@amWhy I was just going to say that, indeed, if a PSQ uses "we" as in "how can we proceed?", then we can comment "We do not see any reason to proceed with a PSQ.". =)

Xander Henderson

If it is a PSQ, is changing "we" to "I" going to improve the question to the point where it is not a PSQ? If not, why bother? Just close and delete.

And I did suggest leaving comments (I would prefer a less snarky comment, but comments encouraging the asker to change the pronouns are entirely appropriate).

10 mins ago, by Xander Henderson

So yes, discourage users from using the mathematical "we" if it is not appropriate. Encourage them to either take responsibility for their own work, or to remove pronouns entirely. But don't make that unilateral edit yourself. Please.

amWhy

@XanderHenderson By that argument, we ought not complain about PSQs, because "they have learned that mathematical" questions are asked in the imperative. This is where I must say, like Wittgenstein famously wrote, "You just cut off the branch you were sitting on."

Xander Henderson

@amWhy I am not making a binary statement here. The choice is not between "ignore the issue entirely" and "make unilateral edits".

There are options in between, including posting comments to encourage users to change their behaviour.

And there is a world of difference between complaining about a questions style, and choosing to edit the question in order to change the style.

amWhy

@XanderHenderson I am not trying to be difficult, but my objection to your initial "as for "we"", which was dichotomous. I was the one saying it is not so cut and dried. So I am happy you see the matter as not an either/or situation. That's been my hope all along.

Xander Henderson

2:56 PM

All I am asking is for folk to not make edits for the exclusive purpose of changing the style of a post.

@TheAmplitwist If a question is reopened, I think that having the possible duplicate is a useful roadsign. I prefer to keep such comments around. It is impossible to do that without declining the flag.

amWhy

@XanderHenderson Then again, changing a psq changes the style of a post. So please warn against rephrasing PSQs, because in doing so, it changes the style of the post.

Xander Henderson

@amWhy I have reverted many edits in which a well-meaning third party has attempted to add context to a post ex facto. We even have a policy on the meta page about adding invented context.

In the same way that users are encouraged to use comments to get the original asker to provide context, comments should be used to encourage the use of appropriate pronouns.

In any event, I need to teach now.

amWhy

@XanderHenderson Oh, and I totally agree. I'm am not arguing for the sake of arguing. I agree overall, mostly with what you're saying, and I'm a stickler against "putting words in an askers mouth."

@XanderHenderson Ooh, I'll let you go, then.

The Amplitwist

@XanderHenderson I see. Thanks for clarifying. I trust this is a moderator consensus.

Xander Henderson

@TheAmplitwist I don't know that this particular issue has ever come up before---the general moderator consensus is that comments should be left alone unless they are really, really unnecessary, or they violate site policy in some way (e.g. they are abusive). In any event, class officially starts very soon, and I need to pay attention. I really am off now.

Oliver Diaz

4:43 PM

Mods, in the past few days I have notice that points have been subtracted my rep (between 20 to 30 points each time). In the past I would get a message that would explain the reason: user is removed, or an specific answer that was voted the OP undo her upvote and/or acceptance of an answer, etc. This time however I have not gotten messages. How can raise a flag to moderators about this?

Arctic Char

5:30 PM

@OliverDiaz May be you have some answers deleted (I think you can check your recently deleted answers in your own profile)

Xander Henderson

5:58 PM

@OliverDiaz It looks to me that (1) a question you answered was deleted ( math.stackexchange.com/q/4240458 ) and (2) you deleted two questions with positive scores (math.stackexchange.com/q/3808024 and math.stackexchange.com/q/3745627 ).

Oliver Diaz

7:26 PM

@XanderHenderson I see that a question (which you quotes in your previous message to me) that I answered was deleted, however I answered it as Community Wiki. I am under the impression that such types of answers (or questions for that matter) do not count towards rep. As for questions deleted, would not I get a message telling me that some rep was deleted for that reason? Thanks for taking a loo at this. If this happens again, I will let mods know with a little more info (screenshots, for example)

Xander Henderson

7:39 PM

@OliverDiaz It appears to me that it wasn't made CW until after it got two upvotes and a downvote. So you got +18 reputation before it was made CW, then lost that reputation when it was deleted.

Alternatively, you earned +18 reputation before you marked it CW, and lost those 18 reputation when you marked it CW. The timeline is not entirely clear to me.

As for deleted questions, you are not supposed to get a notification:

13

Q: Reputation notifications not showing after my answer was deleted

Recently, a question that I had answered was closed and deleted (along with my answer) for being a duplicate, and I lost all the reputation (105 points) I'd gained from my answer. That's no problem, but what was strange was that afterwards I didn't get any notifications for reputation gained from...

Note that the question is tagged status-bydesign.

There is further discussion of this behaviour elsewhere on the main meta site: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/208900/… .

Oliver Diaz

8:40 PM

@XanderHenderson Thanks for letting me know about the intricacies of the system.

amWhy

9:39 PM

@user21820 Or perhaps even better: "We need to read [How to ask a good question](URL). Then we need to improve our question using suggestions we learn from that post."

@Xander I understand your points about editing out the use of "we"s in PSQs. I will abide by your request. I was just surprised when you insisted we don't edit in such cases. But I have no problems with your recommendation.

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$Mathematics$ Math Mods' Office