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00:00
partially relevant
5
Q: Are "why did game X do Y questions" not constructive?

Jonathan HobbsI am bringing this up because of this question: What constraint (if any) limits crowd animation variety? What's being asked in this case is: why did these companies make this decision? I feel like this is a rehash of the situation dealt with in Is “How was entire game X made?” off-topic? The...

@SpicyWeenie hey
would you by any chance want to help me and my videogame?
@EliteGamer Kinda caught up in mine. Thought you had modelling specific problem. I dont use UDK
ok, um what game are you making/
00:52
I can't tell if bad questions are more a waste of time or bad metaquestions about bad questions are more of a waste of time
01:13
I'm starting to really hate valve : dotabuff.com/pages/2013-01-25-shutdown
user58869
02:10
@Jimmy bad questions I reckon
03:08
Funny how someone showed up, understood my question and gave a good, in-depth answer. Which goes back to what I've told others: If you dont know the answer of a question, leave it for someone else who may be more knowledgeable to answer it before you get vote-down-happy because you cant answer it.
Down votes are there for questions that are bad for the site.
@From
@ToddersLegrande True, but users are using down votes for questions they dont have experience in more often. Would it be fair if I downvoted a question about memory if I have little to no thorough knowledge about the subject being asked?
03:22
Do you have an example of that happening?
In the question I think you are referring to I definitely did not see that.
Put simply, if you ask a question like "Why does x + y = z," anyone that has no experience with the this type of problem may downvote it based on the simple fact that they don't know how to handle the problem or never experienced it nor a solution.
To answer your question, no it wouldn't be fair.
I still say thats not what happened at all
I think that most people that do those kinds of answers are simply trying to help to the best extent of their abilities, maybe some can't even comment yet and one thing is for sure, an answer does get much more exposure than a comment
The questions that were asked in the comments of your question are trying to figure out what your actual problem was and if it was a good fit for the site. They were trying to help you improve the quality of the question so that it actually fit the site and people would have reason to remove their down votes and maybe even upvote them instead
So what is this site?
03:28
People are not downvoting because they don't understand your question. They are downvoting because it doesn't meet the rules of the site.
In your own words
^About and FAQ pages
My question fit within Game Design
So how did it not fit?
But it also fell under "which technology is better", "which technology should I use" and "what technology did game X use" which are not fitting types of questions
define technology
03:31
And if you change the question to "whats the difference between X and Y" it could potentially fall into the "could write a whole book on the subject" category
You are reading too far into the question
Then update the question! :)
The question has already been answered by someone that 1. understood the problem 2. Had some experience with this situation. Nowhere was technology mentioned. Only technique.
And yet he didn't actually answer your question.
Weird...
Game Development and Game Programming are two different animals
03:36
I don't think anyone denies that
and this is not strictly a programming site. No one would tell you that
But people treat it as such
When someone asks for an "implementation problem" they are asking you to provide details on the problem you are having for making your game
not just "which is best"
I already have the details
And I stated them
But they didn't look. Maybe next time I'll add pictures :)
Well let me ask you this.... you talked about looking into 3d environments for games
What did you know about height maps and 3d models for environments prior to asking the question?
I already knew about them
03:41
What about them?
I know their limitations
Give me some examples
I know how Gears of Wars world was likely built. I'm curious as to how red dead redemption was though. I'd like some insight into Rock Star's toolchain.
But what people kept missing is which yields the most practical results for a given situation
03:43
You are also missing something. It's in the way your question was framed, while you probably do have a valid reason for asking the question you framed it as What do they do
just a random :D, ignore it
I agree with Noctrine. I think there is one or two good questions in there (I'm leaning towards splitting it into two) but the question as it stands isn't fitting
Which is why Byte said earlier that his method of doing it would be different from your method of doing it. The reasons why terrain is created different ways isn't always by preference or whats best sometimes its pretty arbitrary
A lot of the time (like in the case of just about anything made with UE3 and legacy) based on legacy stuff.
How you create terrain for one type of game is not always the best for another
This is true
And how terrain is created isn't always the best for your game.
03:47
the 3 games have different terrain styles
Or at least, in the case of some of the games you listed. In a lot of the cases its based on what the toolset is.
I'd say a game like worms 3d would also be different, since you can destroy and re-shape it
but I dont know much about the area so...
Would you use a heightmap to make the floors of a spaceship?
then its not arbitrary
03:49
I didn't say it was, I said it could be.
@SpicyWeenie but that's a concrete example
But bringing it back around, this is why "How did X do Y" is discouraged. Only the developers of the title (barring a dev diary or something - or things like the toolset existing for modding purposes) they are hard to answer.
@SpicyWeenie I would say it depends! If the whole map is just the interior of a space ship... why not?
Especially if its just one level and the rest of your game uses height maps
Code is already written for it
Since I'm lazy, I pretty much always start with a heightmap.
when you guys stalked about the floor of a spaceship I immediately thought about startopia...
dammit, now nostalgia wants me to play it
03:51
I know Gears is UE3. So the basic stuff is all using its CSG stuff.
now even that you can't render Red Dead Redemption all in one shot, wouldn't it be safe to say that they used a series of heightmaps to rough out the terrain?
Because of the scale. I would say that they used heightmaps at the very first pass to get a rough cut of what the level would be
exactly
now what about a city level of MW3?
I didn't say that the question couldn't be answered.
wouldn't that be hand-modeled
03:53
I said that you asked it in a way that isn't completely proper for the site
A whole city? Unlikely, that's a waste of resources
Check out CityEngine
cityengine sucks
too many extras
That's not the point
A tool can easily be put together that can do what you'd need
@SpicyWeenie It's probably not perfect but I think the question is more fitting for something like:

What criteria do developers use for choosing their approach to creating terrain and large environments for levels?

Explain some background information on your problem and maybe list a couple examples that you know about, etc.
So it isn't worth it to put together each building by hand
I'd be a bit irritated if the modelers I hire spent forever working out the details of non-important buildings when there were important things to do.
You are assuming that I would model every building instead of making a few and cloning
03:54
I'm not assuming anything about you, except that you are sticking to your guns on this question for what I believe are the wrong reasons.
I'm saying that when people do the kind of work that you are asking about, forming processes to do things is a much more efficient use of time.
@ToddersLegrande 1 star == 100 facebook likes (+/-)
haha... not sure that comment deserved a star
@Noctrine have you done 3D modelling?
Then Im sure you know the cost of modelling everything by hand
Plus the loading cost depending on how the data is stored
03:59
@ToddersLegrande was more to say "I agree" xD
Ah. I recommend just typing ++ :P
We spend a lot of time working on how we package and stream assets
(its our informal +1 on a comment)
haha I know what ++ is, never seen it here though... nice use for it though :P
I'm proud to say I recommended it one day and it kind of caught on.
At least for a few of us
I've been meaning to use it more
04:01
We use it in inter-office email when someone needs to know that we agree.
A small MP level in a city I would model by hand. RDR, Arma, OFP: multiple heightmaps. GoW3 Heightmaps with hand-modelled terrain (ie ship level)
ehhe, it is a neat idea so
@SpicyWeenie a big problem I'm having is if you know this already, why ask?
@ToddersLegrande gotta love when there's 2 parallel conversations going on
04:02
@ToddersLegrande Thats based on the answer I received which made every other question make more sense
But I guess it's my fault that others aren't that good with reading comprehension as others. :P
Derp. I should have known that
But seriously... its not about reading comprehension its about question quality.
/me has the new simcity 2013 :D
beta access
guna give it a try back in a bit
Alright, time to get to work.
04:05
I find question quality on par with giving a letter grade to an english essay. Depending on which teacher/professor is grading it, you could get an A or an F
@SpicyWeenie did you say you do 3D modelling ? can i see some of your art
Which is why you don't take one or two down votes seriously. When you've got 6 - thats telling you something
but if u get -3 and want your bronze badge you can delete :P
which is silly to be honest
@Dave my profile pic is one of my early ones.
04:07
bit small to see
7Gb for a beta jeese
@Dave dayum! how did you get it?
i applied for a beta key
@ToddersLegrande lol downvoters are like lemmings. One after the other because the one in front took that path
The Mrs. applied a while ago and was never invited. :(
you can ask on simtropolis and pm the staff of maxis for one if you are lucky
if she applied within time she will get one in her email
they roll them out in batches
04:09
Downvoting past a point is kinda like that yeah. I'd say it's the close votes. I'd do the last one myself (even though I understand the question because I said, framing)
But I like it when the community does stuff :\
@Madcowe ??
@Dave it's a bit bigger there x)
It's slightly larger on the profile page. It looks like the android mascot
04:10
i was referring to the profile page :P
yeh does remind me of android bot
I made a really awesome Lego dude when I went to college. Unfortunately I have no clue where the files to it went
and an apple
I made that a couple years ago
i can make a cube in blender
the kind macchintosh computers had way back then
04:10
suck it
Android has a pistol
I once made a 3D cube on flash only with code, and if I clicked and dragged it would spin in place
that doesnt sound fun
too bad it was copy paste from the internet though... I learned a bit from it

^^
but forgot it some time later, oh well
04:12
@Dave I can do an entire monkey head, with about the same amount of work :p
never really wanted to get much into 3D anyway (in flash at least)
i tried to follow a blender tutorial 2 hours long on making a spaceship i lasted 15 minutes and got pissed off :P
I cant stand blender
Blender tutorials are kinda fun like that. I recommend checking out CGCookie. A lot of the older ones are now really hard to follow with the UI Overhaul.
@Madcowe if u need graphics you either learn to make them or have a good sized wallet :P
blender is the only good free one though
04:13
true lol
by free i mean legally free.
even more true
lol
do you use maya ? or 3dmax
im told those are the top 2
@Dave eheh I know that, even though I'm working 2D the game I'm making is horrible because of that... I'm not that handy with drawing x)
2d pixel sprites or some kind of isometric angles? @Madcowe
04:14
I use maya more than max only because I havent had time to get good with max UI
zbrush is hell though
when i had a go at maya i rendered with transparent backgrounds my models had a 1px white border all the time
btw now that I think about it... can someone tell me what are the differences between a portable program and a... well... non portable one?
like flash cs5 and flash cs5 portable?
one doesn't need to install it
@Dave flash, so... drawings
@Madcowe i know but isometric are drawings too
04:15
so far at least... the biggest issue is the backgrounds and the menus
@Madcowe portable probably means you can just copy and paste the program and it will work i think
oh menus = photoshop easy with a basic tutorial to make buttons ec
I really want to get good with Zbrush. I spent a few moments with it and determined that it required way more time than I had to get to where I would want to be
you need pen and tablet for zbrush for best results
@SpicyWeenie yes that I know... but since one is so much smaller than the other, I was wondering what one of them had that the other didnt?
04:16
I remember this one tech expo I was at though, there was a program like zbrush attached to this pen with force feedback.
I could never get past zBrush basic tutorials
That was awesome. Was almost like real sculpting. And yeah, now that I have my Cintiq 24 I am gonna spend some time with Zbrush
Maybe over vacation
@Madcowe good question
@Dave well I have photoshop, but never tried to use it to later import into flash... I just used the flash drawin toolss
@SpicyWeenie think I should ask it?
my friend made this in zbrush with a pen
04:17
@Madcowe Hell no! lol
thanks for warning xD
@Dave awesome...
oh btw, speaking about pens and tablets...
@madcowe just use images import them in to flash and use mouse position to check if its over the image
@Noctrine Let me have your Cintiq!!! I got the BS non-visual type
@Dave yea I know, I just never tried to do it... but since I only do simple stuff anyway, photoshop work made by me wouldnt be much different from flash...
lol :P
04:20
guys I've been thinking about buying a pen and tablet, to help make drawings and such... and I was wondering if you could give me tips on good and bad ones
Anyone used Mudbox? I wish zBrush had a UI like Mudbox
Haven't but I'll check it out
on a store here where I live, I saw some there and am thinking of buying one when I return (but I probably will just buy from the internet because the pricing was crazy!)
@SpicyWeenie briefly. but yeah, coming from 3ds max mudbox felt very natural.
Do I watch this: http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-00-introduction-to-computer-science-and-programming-fall-2008/
or this first?:
http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-001-structure-and-interpretation-of-computer-programs-spring-2005/
 
2 hours later…
06:38
yay know the basics of lisp
and now going to bed
 
4 hours later…
10:45
f*** yeah, original SICP first
computer science isn't a science and it's not about computers
 
5 hours later…
15:50
-4
Q: Human behavior as it relates to interactive game development

thomas BodettiWhy is human behavior so often repeated even when the process of learning and interaction is applied in an even manner across a gaming platform? A great example is the prevalence of so many posts discussing not the question that has been asked but the reasoning behind the question, the way the q...

16:11
this reminds me
I wish there was less regurgitation of manuals, tutorials and "gamedev 101" stuff on the website, as well as less "help me solve artificial design problem" questions :P
it's basically all I see these days :P
there is the occasional "real API issue" but there's very few questions like that
also it's somewhat disappointing to see questions without a "what I've tried" section
means the guy probably doesn't give a damn and want someone else to solve his problems
it was one of the first things I was taught in forums
17:12
@michael.bartnett that's what he said
@snake5 I would assume most of the people around the site are fairly new game developers, as such they expect game making to be easy and just click here and there, type this and that.

And when something doesnt go as they plan, they just kind of "give up" trying and simply ask for solutions
 
4 hours later…
20:47
user image
2
21:22
@ToddersLegrande did you get your simcity key
 
2 hours later…
23:09
@Dave yeah turns out she got it today. What timing!
it closes tomorrow
so dont waste time :P
Oh snap!
Thanks for the heads up
23:42
damn beta is down

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