Game Development

Dominic Hughes

17:00

vbo[0], vbo[1] , vbo[2] //good
vbo1, vbo2, vbo3 //bad

has to be the same too

MickLH

@DominicHughes You should have a careful reason for combining or splitting VBOs

The hardest hitting detail is probably index buffers, but that becomes trivial when you got a bit deeper because of things like offsets and strides

Your core cases are (Write Once, Read Once), (Write Once, Read Many) and (Write Many, Read Many), then any of these cases can happen with your CPU as the reader or writer, your GPU as the reader or writer, or one as both reader and writer

DH.

@Sie Oh OK, so you just want to switch between different colliders to prevent weird behavior

MickLH

in the "CPU <-> CPU" case, you don't bother to involve OpenGL, but in any of the cases involving a GPU on one or more sides, you should read this page: Specifically read how the "usage" parameter is explained: opengl.org/sdk/docs/man2/xhtml/glBufferData.xml

That can motivate some decisions, like combining meshes if their polygons will never change, or splitting the position & normal apart from the texture coordinate if you plan to change one of them over time, but not the other

DH.

Unfortunately there's no basic way, you'll need to first delete the existing collider then add the ghost one

Sie

Why not make a temporary child object, add the ghost collider to that object, and when the editing is done remove it.

MickLH

17:09

@Jon I just realized "greenlight" is code for smoking pot

Jon

So baked

Sie

I wonder if Gabe is bored of Steam and games.

If he were I'd understand.

Jon

Lords of acid: marijuana in your brain

MickLH

In my ShaderX book one of the articles uses an octree, but when they interpolate it naively it of course has artifacts at the edges... Their solution was to use a distance weighted average of all nearby nodes, instead of a trilinear interpolation

They could have just fixed the artifacts in the trilinear way easier

Almo

@Jon they not bad

Jon

17:18

Lol old

Almo

@Sie you get today's grammar award for proper use of the subjunctive mood

DH.

@Sie But would that be called too much in a small time frame? I don't feel comfortable with adding and removing a child object

Jon

Don't. Disable / enable it instead

Adding/removing a lot is bad. Mmmmkay?

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmkay?

Almo

he's right

adding/removing is memory allocation, and you don't want to do that if you can avoid it

MickLH

they are both right

Jon

17:25

Especially me

MickLH

so many people have contributed to the social proof, it has to be true by now

Almo

Especially jon

Jon

Mmmmkay?

MickLH

Also if you don't listen to Jon, you're being a fuckup

Dominic Hughes

@MichLH So I need to be very aware of the usage of the data . I'll goo look at those usage hints

MickLH

17:27

@DominicHughes Just how it pertains to dividing data between vertex buffers

Jon

Brotherly love goes viral,yeeeeeeeeees!!!!!!!!!!!!!

►

Dominic Hughes

@MickLH You mean sharing vertices between different buffers of the same name?

just clarifying : )

Almo

Aphex Twin - Come To Daddy (official video) 1080p HD

►

that's some weird shit there :)

tkausl

17:47

Does it even matter what I define to be one "unit" in OpenGL?

Sie

@DH. It could just stay and sit around until I need to add it. It's not like an empty child object will harm anything.

Almo

@tkausl yeah it does

if 1000000000 units is one meter, you'll get floating point inaccuracy problems when trying to make some thing on a normal scale

tkausl

Yeah, sure

but I mean

Almo

try to make 1 unit fairly close to what would be a "normal" scaled item in your game

tkausl

if 1 unit is 10cm or 1 meter

does it make a real difference in the rendered image?

Almo

17:48

then whatever makes sense to you

tkausl

What is a "normal" scaled item?

MickLH

Consider how floats work

Overall, precision is distributed exponentially

tkausl

negative-exponential, no?

most precision near zero if I remember correctly

Jon

hmmmm

MickLH

Exactly, think about an exponential function

The derivative is small when the number is small, and large when the number is large

Jon

17:59

my win10 pc has been prompting to reboot my pc for the past 3 days... every single hour

MickLH

I think this is a simpler way to put it: You can rely on about 6 digits of precision. Regardless of where the decimal point is.

see 0.00000123456 vs 123456000000

Almo

@tkausl if I were making an FPS, I'd say a person is a normal sized item

If I were making a space game, it would be a cruiser-sized ship.

Jon

if you were making a space game, it woudl suck :P

tkausl

So it would be more like 170 cm for one unit

but in this case, I'd rater stick to my 1 unit = 1 meters approach

MickLH

Is it bad if I don't explain my stance, and just drop bombs about it?

Almo

18:03

it's close enough

that's the point

you wouldn't make an Astronomical Unit (distance from earth to sun) one unit for an FPS

but a person or a car is the right size

MickLH

For rendering, scale matters very little, watch the global offset though. For physics though, it can matter more.

Also the further your scale is away from something "reasonable" (@Almo's suggestion), the more you amplify the risks of numerical instability

Usually some slight rounding error in the video goes unnoticed, actually it normally does in the physics too, but the physics is a complicated feedback system

With that said though, the rounding error can be analysed and accounted for... it's just a lot more work than the usual programming

Jon

I like to use a 1:1 ratio in unity

It just makes everyTHING much easier

MickLH

I actually went with a crazy choice like I usually do, my units are decimeters

Jon

whoa, I was hearing noise from my PC and was like noooooo

Then I realized it was coming from my old PC

Phew.

tkausl

decimeters is still a good choice

MickLH

18:09

lol

tkausl

I'd call you crazy if you'd use 13.147 centimeters per unit

Jon

i'd call him crazy regardless

Almo

INCHES

Jon

I measured my foot and went with that

Sounds crazy? Not in the US.

MickLH

Get some.

Jon

18:10

@Almo you think I should pick up this lot?

kijiji.ca/v-old-video-games/moncton/…

he has that 1 original in the back there, with the original sid

Almo

if you like stuff like that, go for it

I can't because there isn't enough room in the apt

Jon

I don't want the revisions

those are literally shit to me, lol

Almo

heheh :)

Jon

i'm waiting for him to let me know when I can come over to check it out anyways

Also, can you play rocket league or what tonight?

I wanna see how good you are at hoops

Almo

still in OT mode

I might be able to play a few games around 8 my time

we in same time zone?

Jon

18:13

1 hour ahead of you

Almo

ok so 9 pm your time

Jon

ok i will see, might be able to

Almo

ok

if not, we try tomorrow

Jon

that is usually snuggle time with the bitches

Almo

haha :)

Jon

18:14

my dog and my gf

Almo

:)

Jon

so there is this thing i saw online lately that says dogs don't like hugs

My dog seems to enjoy them

user4704

Yeah I read the same thing.

Jon

she friggen wants hugs in the morning that is for damn sure

user4704

Sounded like BS "science" to me.

Jon

18:18

I think it depends a lot on the way it was raised

user4704

In that it was billed as science but had no evidence of actual science involved.

Almo

^

user4704

Just a bunch of speculation by psychologists -- who generally study humans -- presented as fact.

Jon

Kinda like naturopaths

Almo

just look up temple grandin squeeze machine

user4704

18:18

And universal fact, indeed.

Jon

It works if you believe. Otherwise it doesnt.

Almo

(I'm serious, it's a thing, and addresses the subject)

user4704

It's like saying "dogs don't like to roll over" because my dog doesn't like to roll over (which he doesn't).

Jon

mine hates to roll over too, lol

user4704

The only vaguely valid point out of that article was the implication that dog behavioral signs aren't the same as human ones.

user4704

18:20

Which is decidedly true.

user4704

But it was sort of hand-waved once or twice and moved along.

MickLH

I have one dog that is annoyed by hugs, and one dog who will growl at you if you don't hug her enough. It would take strong evidence to convince me that all dogs have the same preference on being hugged.

Jon

my dog hates being kicked

do all dogs hate it? probably not

some of them are probably machosists

MickLH

lol hates being kicked? I bet he'd really hate being banned

user4704

Yeah.

Almo

18:22

Masochist: Hit me!
Sadist: No!

user4704

Have seen what they eat?

MickLH

hahahahaha

Jon

lol

if you kick a dog every day, chances are it won't eventually enjoy it

so training a dog to enjoy physical abuse , is that possible?

MickLH

I'm sure it is

Jon

science to the rescue!

tkausl

18:24

good god

Almo

are you sure?

MickLH

People get trained to like it, why can't dogs?

Jon

It is an interesting idea, but I sure as hell ain't going to prove it

I sent my ID to steam

how long does it take for them to validate my identity?

MickLH

If every day since they were a puppy, they learned that getting smacked means you're about to get food or go on a walk, it just becomes the "sound of Pavlov's bell"

DH.

I didn't even know that SteamDev needs to validate ID

MickLH

18:27

@tkausl Rest assured, this choice I've made is a bit crazy because the world size I am using

tkausl

how big?

Jon

ah it was done already, cool

I needed to send them an ID

MickLH

@tkausl >10km^2

Jon

Well, an image of an ID

oh man... the game edit page is overwhelming

tkausl

So you need to stream your world

I'll also need to do this eventually

MickLH

18:29

@tkausl I mean, it's not crazy at all because it's deeply integrated into the system design, and I've made very specific accommodations. But in a more traditional system, the "naive" methods don't do what I want at that scale

tkausl

do you use some sort of relative coordinates?

MickLH

Yes, all computation happens in relative spaces

Jon

can u see that?

MickLH

It is a little bit overwhelming lol

I mean, it's nothing crazy, but I'd sure feel pressed up against a wall if steam came at me like that... "Bro you got that release yet?"

Jon

haha, no rush

DH.

18:33

That's a cool "dashboard"

Jon

Yeah, it is easy to understand what I need to do

MickLH

@tkausl btw, I have to use relative coordinates exclusively, if you pack a world space coordinate into a float3 and unpack it, it's severely snapped-to-grid by the time you get to the edge of the world

I use 12 bytes per component, 288-bit world space positions

And there is no "Origin" in the traditional sense, in calculations I use an object (preferably the player) or the world cell enclosing the script

That's the main reason why it can work

Dominic Hughes

Is using a modelviewmatrix not mainly used for positioning vertex positions ?

tkausl

I quite like how eve online does this in their massive world

Dominic Hughes

Id like to do independent positioning of my 2d shapes but it seems that when I try and change modelviewmatrix differently for each shape they all move on the last modelviewmatrix set.

guess it makes sense since modelviewmatrix is mainly for moving all the models of the scene .

manual vertex positioning it is .

tkausl

18:41

@DominicHughes you should have one model-matrix for every object and a single view-matrix for the whole scene

MickLH

@DominicHughes ModelViewMatrix = Model Matrix * View Matrix

Dominic Hughes

@tkausl How do I use two different modelviewmatrixes at the same time then?

umm

MickLH

You have to be more specific about this "Same Time" idea

Dominic Hughes

the logical same time.

MickLH

There is no such thing as "at the same time" in the universe because of how physics works lol

tkausl

18:42

well you don't draw all objects with the same mvp-matrix, right?

Dominic Hughes

OMG everyone has to be so picky about silly stuff but yes sometimes it's important to be picky about what someone is saying .

Jon

you need to start a new spritebatch call

MickLH

No it's not fucking picky

You need to be specific, if you say "at the same time" again there is ZERO information.

Dominic Hughes

@tkausl

MickLH

Nobody knows wtf you are talking about @DominicHughes

Same time? You mean two lines of code ran at the same time?

Seriously? The CPU did 2 instructions in the same clock cycle?

Seriously? No. Didn't think so. What does "same time" mean EXACTLY? STOP BEING LAZY ABOUT EXPLAINING.

You render one thing, then you render the other, then you move the camera?

tkausl

18:44

we have multicore-cpu's these days

NaCl

What's a good way to implement moving-rulesets for tiles?

Dominic Hughes

@tkausl sooo Id have to manually add a new matrix for each shape I want too have an indepedent position in the shader?.

MickLH

@DominicHughes Does "same time" mean all the things that happen, between movements of the camera?

Dominic Hughes

@MickLH I get it mick sorry for the lack of clarity : ).

MickLH

@tkausl We extremely do NOT need these kind of pedant comments here.

@DominicHughes Don't be sorry, just answer

Jon

18:45

when you call upon the graphic-majiggy to draw, you pass in a view matrix somehow

you need to stop drawing, pass in another view matrix to the graphic-majigger

then draw again

MickLH

@tkausl This is an actual example of the "picky about silly stuff" coming up and I know it's meant to be humor, but it's really dangerous for people who don't have a clear understanding and are looking for the first easiest thing to latch on to.

Dominic Hughes

Urgh fine whateever I'll go do what I think need to do.

MickLH

LOL

@DominicHughes Please don't, lol

Jon

MickLH

"Do what I think I need to" is basically code for doing the wrong thing in this situation lol

Dominic Hughes

18:47

not always ;)

MickLH

Sure, doing the wrong thing over and over leads to eventually understanding

But you could just pause whatever has you so distracted.... and analyze

Blue Bug

failure comes handy if you can learn from it.

Jon

failing is essential.

Icy Defiance

but often you can learn faster if you think instead of failing

MickLH

Failure is only a small part of the puzzle though, LEARNING from the failure is the key

NaCl

18:48

You guys are right, I should abanon those enums and use functions for any tile-type

Jon

i never said that

Almo

I think I just saw the best Kinja headline ever:

"Tetris Is Going to Be a Movie Trilogy and Someone Needs to Stop This Shit Immediately"

io9.gizmodo.com/…

Blue Bug

U can't fight your own stubborn small narrow view of the world without failing from it. Me learned a lot from my stubborn small narrow point of view.

Dominic Hughes

omg I was redining the matrix rather then adding too it lol !

redefining*

NaCl

@Jon I know, helped myself :P

Almo

18:50

hey blue bug not seen you in a while :)

Icy Defiance

hey I'll take being right even if I don't know what you're talking about

Jon

he just left again

he just came in to give us his wise words

Almo

hey icy: don't play garen vs teemo

Jon

and then vanished... amazing.

Dominic Hughes

MickLH: I find failing a disgusting way to learn .

Blue Bug

18:50

Hi Almo. It's been a while!

Almo

:)

Jon

Oh wait nevermind, there he is

Blue Bug

Yes I meditated in a cave to study the truth of the world. Learned to speak some wise(pretentious) words.

MickLH

@DominicHughes idk I think it's gotta happen sometimes

Jon

what cave?

Almo

18:51

Learning is good. It enables us to recognize a mistake when we make it again.

MickLH

I think excessive failure is definitely gut-wrenching though

Dominic Hughes

MickLH: When their is no other way defiantly!>

: >

MickLH

@DominicHughes So you know once you draw pixels, you're done with the vertices?

Jon

might be easier if you just drew on paper with some crayons @DominicHughes

MickLH

After you draw pixels, you can dump every matrix and you'll keep the pixels, then you can draw more pixels on top with a different matrix

Dominic Hughes

18:52

sometimes if you use extroverted intution also known as possibility finding.

MickLH

So you never need two matrices at the same time, and never need two buffers at the same time

You can use one after the other

Blue Bug

this cave

Jon

is that your dad?

MickLH

No it's him

Jon

totally not a cave

you were scammed

MickLH

18:54

Yeah that's definitely a waterfall

Blue Bug

the cave meditating didn't improve my English unfortunately; I meant waterfall.

MickLH

@DominicHughes hahahaha

Dominic Hughes

:P

just being precise about it that's all lol.

Icy Defiance

it's definitely a waterfall, but the man is definitely not in the waterfall

Jon

yeah that is his aura

MickLH

18:55

Wait, the whole waterfall is inside a cave

Icy Defiance

lol some weird smudge shit above his head to make it look like he's underneath it

Dominic Hughes

aura of virgin Haha

smudge shit lul

Blue Bug

I mean, what I were trying to say were, maybe Dominic go ahead do whatever he thinks is right, and may succeed or fail; either way profit if he can learn from it.

MickLH

Ugh he already tried stuff though! It's time to think about what happened analytically!

Blue Bug

and Yes, Congrts on your greenlit @Jon

MickLH

18:56

yeah congrats on lighting up that green, @Jon

Blue Bug

he left

Jon

thanks

Almo

woa

user4704

@DominicHughes Not appropriate.

Jon

MickLH

18:57

hahahaha

o shit @YanKarin I guess you can't use chat yet :/

tkausl

free key givaway?

MickLH

@JoshPetrie do you know a way around the chat rep wall?

user4704

@MickLH There's some convoluted thing you can do but it involves creating a new room.

Jon

i think you can open a room with them

Almo

yeah go edit some posts

Jon

18:59

get to work :P

user4704

He can't be granted write permission to this room unfortunately.

Blue Bug

hi @YanKarin

MickLH

Ok this is bad form, but if someone gave him one upvote, I think he can chat here

1

Q: Implementing proportional navigation in 3D

Good afternoon guys, a = N * w' * V is the formula for the commanded acceleration required to hit the target, where N is the proportionality constant, w' is the change in line of sight and V is the closing velocity. If I'm given both interceptor and target positions, velocities and orientations, ...

Jon

why you giving him pref treat?

he some kind of hillary clinton supporter or something?

MickLH

LMFAO

Blue Bug

19:01

u can't be nice to people on internet... sigh but I guess an exception... upvotes

MickLH

@YanKarin I think you should be able to re-join and talk now

Jon

he needs 100

user4704

20. It's 20.

Jon

naw, its 20

Almo

the chat barrier is pretty low

Jon

19:03

he's at 16

LOL

Almo

it's why we usually say "ask a good question or edit some posts."

MickLH

oh I didn't know new users could edit posts for rep lol

Blue Bug

if he accepts an answer, wont it boost him up to 20.

MickLH

lol but we're already stretching the system so far

Almo

yeah, anyone can edit. if you're no0b, it goes to the queue for votes before being accepted

Jon

19:04

we run the system

DH.

Accepting answer gives only 2 rep

Jon

chill

best thing to do is just give up really.... or get another vote

Blue Bug

this was the nicest kindest gesture I have seen/done on internet last year and half.

I feel no more good left in me. I cannot be nice to people anymore.

MickLH

lol shit, I give up too

can't figure out how to open a new room for him specifically

Jon

just keep commenting

it will eventually say "Hey man why don't you get a room you two?"

Blue Bug

19:07

he is now on 21.

MickLH

ooooo yeah

user4704

@Jon That does not actually circumvent the rep limit.

Blue Bug

we bent the system! refresh the page @YanKarin to join the chat.

Jon

:)

it is in our nature to bend systems.

Blue Bug

plot twist, he never meant to join the chat. The collaborated good act of internet goes to waste.

MickLH

19:10

lol that would explain why it was possible to happen

since the internet is pure evil and all, an act of kindness there must only be for the purpose of disappointment when it fails right?

Almo

so retract your votes

Blue Bug

the glimpse of hope for goodness disappears.

DH.

Wait what? He said he needs 20 rep on SO

user4704

SO is his chat parent site then.

user4704

Not here.

DH.

19:14

Didn't know I had parents on SE

Blue Bug

lmao

Icy Defiance

he's wrong. when I got 20 rep on this site it let me chat here, but not in SO rooms.

I got 20 rep on SO later which unlocked those rooms, but I was chatting here for a while before that happened

user4704

Yeah SO is some weird arbitrarily separate network for Reasons.

user4704

The whole permission gate is super complicated and confusing.

Blue Bug

I suppose it is more secure because it is complicated and confusing.

user4704

19:22

Security through obscurity isn't secure at all.

user4704

The reputation gate is purely to combat spam. The implementation of the rep gate is due to the kludgy nature of chat in general.

Almo

:D

Blue Bug

"Hi guys our team made this game. We have demo and stuff and it is 9.99$ check this link to play our demo and buy the game"

MickLH

@Almo I did lol

Darth_Wardy

19:41

@JoshPetrie i really wish Microsoft thought of this when they wrote identity framework

tkausl

20:43

"Windows cannot access the specified device, path or file. You may not have the appropriate permissions to access the item."

Anything I can do about it?

a friend got this message when I sent him a exe of my game and tries to execute it

NaCl

support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/2669244

tkausl

I know this site but this won't help me

if it's blocked by windows or antivirus how to solve it?

NaCl

Remove either of it :P

tkausl

I can't tell everyone who wants to play my game to remove their antivirus...

And I don't have the money to buy a code signing certificate

Blue Bug

it seems odd that your program is somehow blocked by system/antivirus.

tkausl

20:50

Yeah

And I can't reproduce it

I have Win7 and when I download my own file it asks me if I want to execute it as it might be insecure

But for him it just blocks

He has win10 I think

OMGtechy

Run as admin?

And it's probably because it's unsigned and not part of their SafeScan thing yet

tkausl

Doesn't help, same message

NaCl

"To resolve this, just right click on the file and then choose 'Properties'. In the properties window, at the bottom you will see a security notice which says "The file came from another computer and might be blocked to help protect this computer". You will also see a 'Unblock' button next to it. Just click on 'unblock' and then 'Apply' and then click 'OK' to close the properties window." java-samples.com/showtutorial.php?tutorialid=1537

Icy Defiance

did you use an absolute path in your code?

it might not be the exe itself, but something it's trying to access

the path may not exist on his computer

tkausl

The only thing hardcoded is the assets-file which is right next to the exe

Blue Bug

20:52

hardcoded, with relative path...

tkausl

yeah relative of course

If a dll is missing i should've gotten another message, right?

Blue Bug

is your program actually a virus?

tkausl

Its not a virus..

On Virustotal only one exotic system thinks its a virus

Blue Bug

crosses off a case in the list

OMGtechy

It's clearly a virus

He just doesn't want to tell us

so we'll offer to help and download

then BAM we're infected

tkausl

20:55

I don't want you to download it, i'd be ashamed by how bad this actually is o.o

OMGtechy

aha

the worse it is, the more you're about to learn

Blue Bug

a sacrifice to be made to help tkausl. Bring the rope and knife!

OMGtechy

on a more serious note, it's probably a good idea to get a VM going to test the exe on

tkausl

I'm not even sure if I'm allowed to share this as this "steals" some graphics from another game because I was to lazy to create my own for developing

OMGtechy

with a different username etc

maybe you'll be able to reproduce it then

Come to think of it, I had a similar bug once because the user had a space in their username

so some script interpreted it as two paths instead of one

MickLH

20:57

lol of course, that

OMGtechy

@tkausl we've all done it ;)

-1

Q: Why dosent javascript modulus work?

so I made this code: y = 0 for(x = 0; x <= 1000; x = x + 1){ if x % 3 == 0 or x % 5 == 0(){ y = y + x } } console.log(y) to add all the multiples of 3, and 5 between 1, 1000 and I get a message saying "syntax error, unidentified identifier", pointing to that. Can you help me?

javascript

because you're doing it wrong >.<

> if x % 3 == 0 or x % 5 == 0()

like, what is that

> 0()

MickLH

a neural net most of the way there

just like any other recurrent neural net error lol

OMGtechy

it's skynet

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