Game Development

Lasse

00:03

speaking of being out of shape, I'm getting back to shape again

I've lost 9kg already

yaaay

that's 20 pounds for you imperialists

my goal is to lose 30kg, which would be awesome if I could do that

so 21kg to go

allright, 4h sleep left, night folks

Shroeder

Helo

@SpartanDonut you around

SpartanDonut

sup

Shroeder

K i'm back at home

I'm testing serializable data

So far I've found that SpriteFont's dont serialize

Suprisingly enough Rectangles, vectors, texture2d, enums, strings, ints, and every else i use work

SpartanDonut

cool

Shroeder

So I proved that whenever I try to serialize my class of Item, it fails

So I took every public property of Item and put it into a test class, then serialize the test class

While using [XmlIgnore] on my spritefont properties

I succed in serializing all of Item's properties

But when I remove them from the test class, then put in a simple one property of public Item theItem;

It can't serialize it

I tried to put [Serializable] above the class declaration of Item

I can't [XmlIgnore] it, because I in fact need that class being saved serialize

Any ideas?

I also proved that complex types are serializable, by setting properties to other classes in my game, and serializing them successfully

github.com/shroeder/GameRPG I pushed out my example as it is

if you would like to look at it, I have a test class set up where all you have to do is put public properties in it and the globalvariables class tries to serialize whatever is in there

SpartanDonut

00:18

ok

so

without all the confusing subtext... what have you tested that works and what have you tested that doesn't work

because... you lost me

Shroeder

Right on

I know for a fact that all data types I use are serializable except for SpriteFont

Including Classes I create

My problem is I cannot serialize the Item class

So I took each thing being serialized in the class of Item, ie
public List<Affix> AffixList = new List<Affix>();

[XmlIgnore]
public SpriteFont Font1;

public Random RNG = new Random();

those are three of many

And verified that every thing in the Item class serialized

Following that logic, I then deduced that I should be able to Serialize the Item class, because I proved that I can serialize all parts of the Item class, for the exception of SpriteFont's which I now ignore

When Trying to serialize an Instance of the Item class, It fails to serialize.

public class Test
{

public Item ClampedItem;
}

serializing the class Test in this case fails

user4704

Define "fails."

Shroeder

One moment

A first chance exception of type 'System.InvalidOperationException' occurred in System.Xml.dll

Additional information: There was an error reflecting type 'TextureAtlas.GlobalVariables.GameData'.

public static void SaveGameData()
{
GameData data = new GameData();

afx = new Test();
data.afx = afx;
}

        XmlSerializer serializer = new XmlSerializer(typeof(GameData));

user4704

That sounds like the serialization implementation is trying to serialize GameData.

Shroeder

It is

user4704

00:25

That's not the same as serializing Test.

Shroeder

As an example, I am serializing a savable structure, GameData, which contains Test, which contains Item

Test serializes perfectly

It is what I use as my static test subject

By changes things within test, I can scientifically prove exactly what is failing to serialize, based on the control that it succeeded in every other case.

In this way I have found that SpriteFonts do not serialize

user4704

That's not necessarily true (or needed at all). The exception tells you what the problem is.

user4704

Look at the inner exception.

Shroeder

I cannot

Its bugging me terrible

I know I can

user4704

Turn on break-on-throw and examine it there.

Shroeder

00:29

but something in my settings is jacked up where I can't look at the inner exception, so I'm looking for it in the output window

Yes of course, I am on the break

user4704

Or catch the exception, put a breakpoint there, and examine it there.

Shroeder

noramlly i am used to seeing a link that says' view detail, in which i click it and it shows me the stack trace and inner exception

user4704

Or put $exception in the watch window

Shroeder

I will set up a try catch

oo

There was an error reflecting property 'afx'

public static Test afx { get; set; }

public class Test
{

public Item ClampedItem;
}

You up to speed with me?

So now we know that Item is in fact the problem right?

user4704

No.

user4704

00:33

The property is the problem.

user4704

It's static.

SpartanDonut

@Shroeder looks like you are in good hands... sorry I was afk

Shroeder

How so, I'm serializing the static property right now

SpartanDonut

and still am mostly

Shroeder

Inc spam

public class Test
{

public int quality;
public int affixes;
public int ItemType;

public Boolean hover = false;
public Boolean invhover = false;

public Vector2 worldloc;
public Vector2 location;

public Rectangle Bounds;

public string ItemName;

public List<Affix> AffixList = new List<Affix>();

[XmlIgnore]
public SpriteFont Font1;

public Random RNG = new Random();

public Texture2D LegBeam;
public Texture2D TextureBack;
public Texture2D ItemTexture;
public Texture2D LegendaryBg;

public string ItemTextureName;

user4704

00:34

"There was an error reflecting property..." indicates that there was an error reflecting the property.

user4704

Not necessarily (just) the property's type.

Shroeder

Without making any changes to the way things are being serialized, my program is now serializing this same static Property perfectly, the only difference was that I changed what was inside of it

Now can we conclude that It is not the Property?

user4704

I don't understand what you claim to be saying.

Shroeder

I linked this example on my github, but I will try to explain again

user4704

The error says what the problem is. Something about that property does not meet the requirements of the XmlSerializer.

Shroeder

00:37

The error essentiallyl is saying "Hey there is a problem with this property you fed me"

user4704

c.f. stackoverflow.com/questions/17222900/… and stackoverflow.com/questions/1293496/serialize-a-static-class

Shroeder

cf?

user4704

"Compare with."

Shroeder

Ahh gotcha

Icy Defiance

can I flag a question just because the OP is incapable of basic problem solving and I don't want to explain the whole "position and velocity vectors" thing again?

or maybe I just shouldn't scan the questions any more today, lol

user4704

00:45

If you can find the duplicate, yes.

Shroeder

I want my Serializer to Ignore the method I use to Intanciate the Class, but can't figure out how to do so

public Class Item{
public Item(param1,2,3){
}
}

I can't preface that public Item with [xmlIgnore]

Because its not a Property, but I thought that the serializer only tried to serialize properties

making it private solves the problem, but then I can't call the method to instanciate the class

user4704

...I don't understand what you are saying.

user4704

That's a method. XmlSerializer won't serialize methods.

Shroeder

Yeah thats what i thought

user4704

Are you saying you don't have a default constructor?

user4704

00:53

You have to have a default constructor.

Shroeder

I guess not

Example?

user4704

That's how XmlSerializer instantiates your object.

Shroeder

just an empty constructor

user4704

A constructor that can be called with no parameters.

Shroeder

yeah

I'm with you so far

user4704

00:57

So does Item have one, or not?

Shroeder

No, i'm trying to override it

but can't remember what to use to share the method to have difference params

i thought it was overridable

user4704

Override what?

Shroeder

public overridable Test()

user4704

"Override" has a specific meaning here that I don't think you are intending.

user4704

Are you thinking of enabling a method for dynamic dispatch? That's done via the "virtual" keyword, and you can't do it to constructors. It doesn't make sense.

Shroeder

00:58

    public Test();
        public Test(Vector2 Location, Texture2D tex, int itemtype, int ItemLevel, itemSlot itmslot, int SubType = 0)

just want to be able to make the call empty or with the params i normally use

Icy Defiance

public Test() : Test(Vector2 Location, Texture2D tex, int itemtype, int ItemLevel, itemSlot itmslot, int SubType = 0) { }

wait no

Shroeder

gracias

user4704

Close.

Shroeder

Too much vb.net at work:(

user4704

public Test() : this(locationValue, textureValue, itemTypeValue,...etc...) {}

Icy Defiance

00:59

ahh right, this

and no param types

user4704

That's an over*load* not an over*ride*.

Shroeder

Indeed it is haha

why no data types?

user4704

Because that's the syntax.

Shroeder

How does it know then

user4704

You're just calling a function.

Shroeder

01:01

even a function needs data types

user4704

Not when you call it.

Shroeder

indeed not when you call it

user4704

And that's what you are doing.

Icy Defiance

the definition of the other constructor will have the types declared

user4704

Calling a function (in this case another constructor).

Shroeder

01:01

I thought this was the declaration of both

Icy Defiance

public Test() : this(whatever) will call the other constructor first, then go back to the default one and do whatever is inside there, then it'll finally return

but you have to declare the other constructor separately

Shroeder

I'm missing something syntax wise

nvm got it

YES

It serializes!

I remember reading about empty constructors in MSDN today, just didn't pay attention to it

@JoshPetrie @IcyDefiance Thank you

I can move forward again

Icy Defiance

I give you 5 minutes before you hit another wall. That seems about average for me, at least.

Shroeder

Is it good form to have empty constructors always?

user4704

Default.

Shroeder

01:07

A lot of times I get pissed since I have like 12 inputs into a class that are required

user4704

Not empty. Empty is something different.

Shroeder

Default Constructor.

Icy Defiance

I don't worry about making default constructors (except with structs, because they're required)

just require the things that need to be required

user4704

And you should only have default constructors when it makes sense that an instance of the class can be created with no parameters.

Icy Defiance

^

Shroeder

01:08

For Serialization It is required to have a default

user4704

No it isn't.

Shroeder

Unless you lack the method that instanciates the class.

user4704

For XML serialization using the BCL XML serializer it is.

user4704

But you can serialize things without default constructor fine if you need to.

Shroeder

How so, that was the problem I just had.

user4704

01:09

Read what I just said.

Shroeder

Reading

BCL?

user4704

There is a difference between "serialization" and "serializing using the BCL XML serialization system."

user4704

Base class library.

Shroeder

You have to assume I know very little, have I demonstrated otherwise?

Can you explain the difference briefly or not really?

Icy Defiance

there are a few things I don't like about that XML serializer. requirements like that default constructor thing is one of them. not that it can be helped without making the programmer put a bit more effort in.

user4704

01:11

@Shroeder Using C#'s XmlSerializer is one way to do serialization.

Shroeder

I really didn't want to have to manually write all of my properties out again, so I am happy this works.

user4704

There are many ways to do serialization in general.

Shroeder

okay, and I am using BCL

right?

user4704

Yes, the BCL is essentially the C# standard library.

user4704

Everything in System.* and such.

Shroeder

01:12

base class library means vs2013's ability to deserialize using thier library?

ok

user4704

No.

Shroeder

?

user4704

VS2013 has nothing to do with the base class library or C#, other than offering a compiler.

user4704

The BCL is the base class library for the CLR (common language runtime). .NET is a an implementation of the CLR.

user4704

You're using the XML serializer from some particular version of .NET.

user4704

01:13

Not Visual Studio.

Shroeder

.Net 4.0

That is a collection of libraries?

user4704

And runtimes, yes.

Icy Defiance

yep

Shroeder

Thank god, I couldn't handle another no

Icy Defiance

no, you totally could ._.

Shroeder

01:14

Haha

Josh you have a nack for precision

I can't squeek by with bad terminology around you, I like that

Almo

back icy

Shroeder

Runtimes?

user4704

The thing that supports the execution of your program.

Shroeder

K

user4704

Everything your write in any computer language has some kind of runtime environment or host. With the exception of machine language, all of those runtimes are effectively themselves programs or libraries.

Shroeder

01:18

Machine Language

user4704

(for example, C# usually uses .NET or Mono as a runtime environment, and C++ programs have a vendor-supplied runtime they are usually linked with.)

Shroeder

Python?

HTML?

user4704

HTML is not a programming language.

Shroeder

Machine Language is something that requires you to run it through something that isn't built in?

user4704

Python is interpreted, so it's runtime environment is the interpreter and its support infrastructure.

Shroeder

01:20

Okay.

user4704

Machine code is the code the chip itself executes directly.

user4704

(thus its runtime is the hardware)

Shroeder

Okay Its clicking

So when I say public List<int> theList, the runtime takes that and interprets it for processing?

user4704

No.

Shroeder

Damnit.

user4704

01:22

C# is compiled. So first the compiler converts the C# to something. In the case of C#, it is converted to CIL (common intermediate language).

user4704

CIL is JIT-compiled by the runtime environment into machine language.

Almo

JIT = "Just In Time"

user4704

Specifically, for .NET, the toolchain produces a PE (portable executable; an .exe) file with the CIL embedded in one of the sections of the file.

Shroeder

I hope I can remember half of this man.

user4704

There's also a predefined chunk of native code shoved into that PE to invoke the loading of the CLR runtimes via the operating system and transfer execution to them.

Shroeder

01:25

I don't know how you retain all of this.

user4704

But this code is only used by pre-XP Windows, as from XP onward the OS itself knows where to directly look for the managed assembly contained in the PE.

Shroeder

Okay.

So this PE is only temporary?

user4704

No, the PE is the .exe file.

Shroeder

Why is it "Portable"

user4704

Because all implementations of Windows support it.

user4704

01:30

(and in fact, it can be "run" from DOS, although all it does is print a message saying you can't do that)

Shroeder

Thx for the info man

@JoshPetrie Are you currently developing a game?

user4704

Yes.

Shroeder

Any released ones for purchase?

John McDonald

heh

user4704

Yes.

Shroeder

01:38

What would you recommend?

I would like to see it.

Or them.

Or whatever.

I'm curious to know what that kind of knowledge produces.

user4704

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catan_(2007_video_game) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rise_of_Nations:_Rise_of_Legends en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars_2 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Decay_(video_game)

Shroeder

I love settlers of Catan

user4704

(plus two in development actively and a few cancelled products)

Shroeder

Thats a shitload of experience... Did you start straight into game development once you graduated or what

user4704

I did.

Shroeder

01:42

How'd you pull that off...

Do those companies contract you out as an individual? Or are you part of a team that is contracted on these projects?

user4704

I just applied for a job and went through an interview.

user4704

I've never worked as a contractor, I've always been directly employed by the studio.

Shroeder

Why for so many?

Noctrine

:O

Rise of Nations! Well, the weird one - but still cool :p

user4704

There's even more if you count unreleased stuff (moonrise-game.com and Halo 5, for example, a few scrapped sequel projects I can't discuss, and the game Undead Labs is currently working on, which isn't really announced.

user4704

01:47

@Shroeder Because I left each company for one reason or another at some point.

Shroeder

Has it scewed your idea of video games being enjoyable?

user4704

No.

Shroeder

Did you have to travel for these jobs. Or do they let you VPN to work.

Noctrine

Is remote work even a thing in the gaming industry?

user4704

@Noctrine In some places.

user4704

01:53

@Shroeder I moved for all of them.

user4704

Which isn't as bad as it sounds. Big Huge Games was in Baltimore, near where I grew up.

user4704

After that (and a brief stint working for Raytheon doing military work) I moved back to Seattle.

user4704

Where I had been for school; ArenaNet, Microsoft (343) and Undead Labs are all in the greater Seattle area.

Shroeder

Now you are a Senior Tools Engineer. What does that entail?

user4704

where did you find that?

user4704

01:57

that was my title years ago.

Shroeder

On your profile.

Noctrine

@JoshPetrie You haven't updated your chat profile

user4704

Oh.

user4704

Fixed.

user4704

I was a senior tools engineer at ArenaNet, then I was the lead engineer, then I left to be a senior tools engineer at 343.

user4704

01:59

Now I'm a developer at Undead Labs.

user4704

A tools engineer makes tools.

Shroeder

I don't believe it

Did you go to PAX with the company then?

Or do you have media people that do all that jazz?

user4704

I went to PAX with ArenaNet. I'll probably go with Undead; both of those companies value the idea of having fans interact with developers.

user4704

I didn't do anything public-facing for Microsoft.

user4704

343 is too marketing-driven to permit that.

Shroeder

02:04

Crazy. Would you ever release an Indie game of your own making?

Or is working at a game studio all the satisfaction you need?

user4704

I might, if I ever found something i wanted to make outside of work.

Shroeder

LethalFrag has started streaming, I will be on twitch. It was nice to peek into your world. Very exciting stuff. You are a very intelligent person, hopefully I'll get a chance to learn from you in the future.

user4704

Thanks.

Shroeder

Thank you as well.

Almo

02:39

@Lasse What about it.

Shroeder

03:22

My save file is 5.4 Gigabytes!

Chris

yikes, that sounds large lol

Shroeder

I must have a little recursion going on in the object I am attempting to serialize on my game's save method :P

Chris

a little recursion? ;) haha

Shroeder

Haha

Chris

Looks like Joe pinged me a couple hours ago, talkin about game stuff!?

Shroeder

03:30

Not sure, wasn't around at that time.

Chris

@Shroeder this message hehe, just up above?

Shroeder

?

Chris

(click the reply arrow thing for the reference link)

13 hours ago, by Shroeder

Never talked to "Chris"

ah derp, 13 hours, good ol timezone conversion

Shroeder

O yeah

I didn't ping you though.

Chris

hehe yeah, just seein Joe's ping and reading a bit there

Shroeder

03:33

I see. I'm still learning the interface in chat. They were talking about you, I forget what was said. I had a question about financials or something regarding developing indie games.

O wait unity2d

Again sorry. Still learning I can go back and look at stuff that was said earlier.

Chris

my tl;dr would be, I've been using Unity for 3 years, finally sat down in December and have been making my game Tallowmere, sold a few copies through a bundle and a couple stores, while still in Alpha stage

yeah Unity 2D is what I'm using

hehehe it's okie

Shroeder

I had some general questions about Unity. Right now I'm just getting the basics without it.

Chris

sweet
I fell in love with it pretty quickly when I first started learning it

Shroeder

Been trying to save for the last three days. Hopefully I'll get her figured out at some point.

Pretty easy to streamline content into your game?

I spent a good 8 to 10 hours on a sprite sheet two weekends ago. Not my idea of fun.

Chris

ah yep, yeah I don't have any experience saving games... most I do is save highscores to a file, but not full game level states

Shroeder

03:37

5.4 gig save file seems ok...

Its saving too well

Chris

creating content, yeah in terms of importing it into Unity and piecing things together, mostly painless once you get the hang of it

lol

Shroeder

I'm definately interested in it.

I hopped on Unity a while back and wasted some time getting nothing done. If i were to do it again I would have to do a tutorial of sorts.

I'm told they have some good documentation and lessons online.

Chris

for me, the ability to pause the game at any time and click on anything in the scene and inspect all the scripts/components and their variables, and to even tweak them in real-time, is just awesome

yeah, the Unity community is pretty good, usually just a google search will bring up what you're after

Shroeder

@IcyDefiance Hey

Icy Defiance

shh don't blow my cover

Shroeder

03:39

That does sound awesome.

Chris

Icy man, jeez, gotta work on your sneaking stats

Shroeder

@IcyDefiance http://bartdesmet.net/blogs/bart/archive/2004/07/23/356.aspx
To make sure everything is working correctly, I needed to expose some attributes as properties to make these persistent (in fact, I only had some indirect methods that were setting the attributes, so these were not made persistent since there was no equivalent property for the attributes). Assume the attribute was:

What does he mean by this

"Persistent"

Most of my Properties don't have a get set

Is that what he means by this?

I'm running into a recursive loop when serializing one of my objects.

@Chris where is the post that has your game's cover on it, someone linked me earlier

Chris

ah, this meta post I think? meta.gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/1576/…

Shroeder

Yeah, that game looks badass

Chris

I dunno anything about that persistent stuff there in the XML serialization :<

Shroeder

03:45

I was hoping @IcyDefiance could help.

Chris

hehe thanks, it's simple but hard but good for the odd run through, see how far you can get

yeah hopefully! there are lots of knowledgeable people here :)

Shroeder

I have found that the case

JoshPetrie has been helpful

Icy Defiance

I've never used the serialization functions that you're using, so anything I can tell you is just from reading references

Shroeder

Its hard for me to pick out what I need from references

Chris

I am not very technical with issues like that... usually roll my own ways of doing things if existing methods look or prove to be too problematic

Shroeder

03:47

Unless its exactly what I am looking for, I'll read up more on MSDN

2.25KB

A little bit less that 6.4 GB

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