a chatroom is as serious as its users are

If it's really a bad question, I think it's 100% fine to tell them to spend some legit time writing a nice question for the main site

@AlexM. It's true, though. This chat DOES represent our community.

nothing changes that, it's in the nature of communities

In fact, I think we have some major issues on the main site.

I don't really have a problem with Shog. He's mostly nice to me.

@VaughanHilts again, splitting has been tried without success. we don't need to split anything. we just need to shut up when someone asks a question. if it's a bad question, shut up, give him a lmgtfy link, and then start talking again. that should be worst case scenario right there.

I've been more active on the main site and have seen some seriously bad issues.

Even though he probably secretly hates me for being such a problem child.

@GnomeSlice lol

And if it's simple enough, an lmgtfy will do it like you said, @IcyDefiance, and anything else can easily be solved here

@GnomeSlice that was random

@JoshPetrie P.S: nice job on nearly quadrapuling my score on the PNG meta-data question :)

@JoshPetrie ehh, I'd agree with that if it could be defined how far that is. I can't come up with anything for that myself.

let me know once you finished with all the papers (i.e. meta posts) to get to the conclusion that

well I'm not even sure what conclusion you'd like to get to

Me either.

I saw the upvotes skyrocket and I was like... huh?

I would have typed a better answer if I knew, heh.

It was a cool question, I even looked at it :)

It was something I rushed to put together in 5 minutes before I headed off to school

@GnomeSlice What the fuck

Mods shut it down

I shut it down.

@hasherr I accidentally linked it to gaming, not gamedev

I see that

Damn it, Gnomey!

Do not open any other rooms for a while.

Don't make another one, I don't think we need it right now

No, you need to clean up your behaviour and keep things on-topic.

I'm out for a while, gotta get to work anyway

fuck I did it again lol

I've been disgusted enough as is

cya

@rolfl On topic with what? That's why we made a chatter room.

More on-topic, has anyone seen this game on CodeGolf? it's gamey and fun: codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/25347/…

Also, if you can't tell, this room doesn't even have a topic anymore

Read the FAQ for SE Chat:

Today I started building tutorial projects for my engine :)

chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/13870/general-chatter

@hasherr There you go

That one is linked to gamedev

I'll probably post it on the community project highlights soon

chat.stackexchange.com/faq

Yes. We expect community members to treat each other with respect … even when they don't deserve it.

This site is collectively moderated by the community through participatory flagging. If your chat messages are repeatedly being flagged by your peers you might find yourself muted, banned, or – in extreme cases – your The Stack Exchange Network reputation may be negatively affected.

If you see an inappropriate, spam, or offensive chat message, please use the hover menu at the far right of each chat message to flag it. This will draw it to the attention of the community moderators.

Who said anything about being disrespectful?

Looks like the key point here is 'try to be on topic'

A dedicated room for actual game development stuff is not a terrible idea

@hasherr Alex M. did:

I don't think that's what he meant by "not appropriate"

Since they are not appropriate for the main site, they are clearly not appropriate for here.

@GnomeSlice This IS the game development room.

@GnomeSlice That's what this room is supposed to be.

I am aware.

@rolfl That doesn't necessarily mean 'disrespectful'

Can someone fill me in on the argument?

Discussions about sex, banging, PG-13 girls, etc. are all disrespectful

as in, not respectable.

that's not what disrespectful means.

that's just unrespectable

Arguing the semantics is going to get you nowhere.

Lol there's no argument going on, just programmers playing with semantics

lol that's hardly semantics, especially since that's not what Alex was talking about with his statement in the first place

for example, discussion itself is "not appropriate" for the main site

@MickLH It's more like the mods have been called into this room 3 times today..

but now we're getting away from the original reason for this discussion

which is ironic since that original reason was about staying on topic

Lol all that's going on here is the mods set down some rules, and are waiting for "Ok no problem"

and instead are getting the classic response you would expect from a teenager

room topic changed to Game Development: Game development discussion. Please don't star trivial messages. [game-design] [game-industry]

There, now what is on-topic here is clearer.

@AlexM. join us

And the classic situation of that "teenager response" being misinterpreted as a counter argument, when in reality the views are basically congruent

@MickLH no the problem is the rules aren't set down. there are no rules. we're told to follow these ambiguous guidelines that the mods won't define clearly in the first place. even in the FAQ that rolfl linked, there are phrases like "more or less" that pretty much excuse everything.

@rolfl That's not what this room is about though.

I think that's for our own benefit

@rolfl wow, arguing over semantics?

The more specific rules are set down, the less freedoms for us

Just nod "mhmm yep, no problem" and let them get on with their day

those are two different words with two different meanings

And alex don't flag random shit as a joke

Obviously... it causes some issues

I didn't flag random shit m8

I flagged my own message, and the only one I personally thought was truly inappropriate

You flagged your own message, which is at the minimum 1/3rd of the problem here

that's because of clueless reactions coming from clueless moderators

who don't know what things happen here

How are they supposed to know that nobody was offended but you!

my messages about violence should have been deleted and that should have been that

They don't sit here all day bullshitting with us

Most flags are approved or declined totally out of context.

Most people don't bother to come read the chat to see what's really going on

That's just how it is

my flag got rejected for some reason

I asked josh personally to delete them

and then I have no idea what the hell happened

because 239 fucking messages were deleted

Yup.

that's the beginning of it, not the end.

@GnomeSlice Actually, that's the way it is supposed to be. If it's totally inappropriate or offensive even without context it doesn't belong. What. so. ever.

even now I can't believe a code review moderator gets to set the rules in gd.se's chatroom

That's when you take your conversations to IRC.

what the hell, at least leave it to the local mods to decide

@Seth Yes, but it doesn't work both ways. Some things seem innocuous without context, but not when you read what's really going on.

@AlexM. I don't think the local mods want to get involved

starting my day(night) with night walk, noice. o_o woo ha so many blue-nameds, wat's going on?

Or they're too busy to.

hey @BlueBug, don't worry about it lol

@BlueBug keep on walkin'

good advice.

@GnomeSlice That's what I just said. If it is bad without context it goes.

@Seth But if it's bad with context, it often stays.

or if it's not bad with context, it goes

ok, hopefully it's not about me keeps jogging

@BlueBug MAKE NO SUDDEN MOVEMENTS CITIZEN!

@AlexM. Josh already expressed his dis-interest in some of this.

@GnomeSlice Well technically that is violating that rules of chat. If people are lenient on you don't make a hubbub about it!

@VaughanHilts Josh expresses his disinterest in a lot fo things

?!

@hasherr That's a moderators job, like it or hate it.

lol I'd hate to be a mod

@MickLH Have to be the bad guy sometimes. :)

Three chat suspensions for 8 hours have been put in place. Let's leave it there.

yeah same here, and I say that with experience. no envy from me.

I mean the power trip would be fun for a minute but the actual actively seeking out peoples bullshit constantly haha

but at the same time, I feel like we've just been invaded by a bunch of mods who have absolutely no knowledge of the history, culture, or people here, and just threw out a few punishments and restrictions because they don't care at all about context.

I'm not sure what to say about it

and I don't dare argue very much against it for fear of being suspended myself

kind of irritating

I only just got here but from what I can tell someone crossed a line.

We should remain semi professional at least, as to not scare off new users.

I am happy to discuss as much as I can....

lol I feel like suspending anyone in this chat isn't even a punishment :P

we all have work to do

If you suspend someone, their productivity increases 2x :D

lol mick beat me to it

The bottom line though, is that a pattern of behaviour has emerged which is contrary to the expectations of the SE Chat system.

Speaking of work, if anyone cared, it's exam time here, so I locked myself away for a while to buckle down some work.

In general, things in here have been on the wrong side of the line for a long time.

Reign it in, keep it on track, or go find somewhere else.

(as in, not on the SE chat system anywhere)

@VaughanHilts yeah someone did cross a line. Alex did. and he's the one who asked for his own posts to be deleted because of that. then some mod went crazy and deleted a couple hundred messages. which still was fine because they were off-topic, but now we have suspensions thrown out and we're being told to strictly follow ambiguous rules that are only partially in writing, or else we'll be suspended too.

@VaughanHilts I personally am glad to see you back, and that you would share something feels comfortable so I automatically appreciate it

now I have nothing against being told to stay on topic

but the rules about staying on topic are ambiguous for a reason

I think the problem was a mod didn't KNOW this was happening.

people who hang out in the chat all day every day need more to talk about, or they'll just leave because the chat got boring

So the flag was kind of like a 'alert' to the chat.

I think Mick mentioned that earlier, actually.

@IcyDefiance No, a mod didn't go crazy. That was an SE employee. When they come in, everyone listens. The fact that we had to come here again is a big problem. And Josh would be here if he didn't have somewhere else he had to go.

alex made that point

You should all be aware that chat moderation and flags are not linked to the site (game-dev).

every single mod on the entire SE site is made aware.

sure, that's fine

@VaughanHilts I agree that causal discussion plays an important role in keeping this chat helptul though

So... good old IRC anyone?

I recommend freenode.

but here's the deal, if we're not allowed to talk about anything except for gamedev itself, I have no reason to stay here, and I'll wager neither do most of the regulars. we come here because we're all friends.

@IcyDefiance They clearly said off-topic was fine, as long as it remains professional.

I believe the rule "stay on topic" should be rephrased to "when one person wants to get on topic, everyone needs to"

@VaughanHilts that is not what rolfl has been saying, and the topic change of the room itself is evidence of that.

That is close, but it is more than just that.

It is about having a chat history and transcript that is vulgur, and searchable, and inappropriate.

@IcyDefiance I'm late to the party, I heard from one of the mods earlier "off-topic is okay" with an ammendum attached, I can't recall what it was.

The thing is, you don't want the mods to lay down hard rules.

I get it...

yeah vulgarity is definitely not okay. I have nothing against that being deleted or even suspensions being thrown out for it.

I mean I don't consider swearing to be vulgarity and there may be disagreement there, but that's a minor issue that I won't argue about

Okay, I'm confused.

Why has a mod approved random chatter in ANOTHER game dev room called "general chatter"?

I feel like I'm getting a contradiction here, now..

@VaughanHilts that was GnomeSlice, not a mod.

@IcyDefiance A mod OK'd it, hang on.

The atmosphere in this chat room has to be one where anyone wanting to discuss game-dev would feel welcome, not offended.

Sounds like a mod nodding approval to me..

@rolfl agreed, but most of those 200-some messages that were deleted were not offensive, and I don't feel like that was your reason for changing the room topic. I think we now have a case of "moving the goalposts."

I changed the topic because of this chat-post .... (wait for it ... have to check the transcript...):

@rofl

@rolfl Can we get a confirmation on this "other room" that's forming?

It seems like a "free for all" room like the topic implies on it seems anti-sprited as well, if ti can exist there, why not here?

Now there is no 'other things'.

@rolfl and he was also wondering why off-topic things are supposedly bad. so I was right, we do have a case of moving the goalposts now. the discussion was never about vulgar or offensive content.

@IcyDefiance game development is artistic, everything we talk about falls into that experience somehow... that's why we share it here

so what's wrong with a policy of "when one person wants to be on topic, everyone should be?" and if we adopt that policy, what's wrong with being off topic the rest of the time?

@VaughanHilts You're right, it cannot just 'migrate'.

well I don't think I can make any better point than my last two messages. if my arguments are still declined, that's as close to "laying down the hammer" as is possible. so I'll leave it at that and go get some food now.

@IcyDefiance - distracted

Not gone.

yeah I know, I wasn't saying I'm being ignored. I'm just saying whatever your response, my part in this discussion is over.

@IcyDefiance - it boils down to this... there is a big difference between off-topic being about a cool movie you watched, and banging chics and religious debate.

It is called political correctness.

people will be offended by one, and not the other.

offending people is not what SE is about.

take that crap somewhere else.

If the conversation in here is about things you don't want your mother, father, kid sister, or whatever to see, then it does not belong, and if it is about stuff I don't want my daughter to see, then it does not belong.

If you are not comfortable keeping those levels of things, then take the parts of you conversations that would break those rules somewhere else.

@rolfl oh god, I said my part in this discussion was over, but you've now just responded to something no one even said in the first place. your reason for changing the room topic was because of someone saying off topic things should be fine. and the reason (most of) those 200+ messages were deleted was because they were off topic. this discussion is not about offensive content. this is about off topic content.

if being off topic is really okay and you're not just dodging the issue at hand here, can we get the room topic changed back as proof of that, please?

if you don't change the room's topic back, then that will be a response to the actual issue instead of something entirely irrelevant

room topic changed to Game Development: Game development and other polite discussion. Please don't star trivial messages. [game-design] [game-industry]

that works. thank you.

Sure

hey could we get mathjax embedded :D

@MickLH Boo LaTex.

pfft the cas writes it for you

I want to be able to copy paste from all the fun programs

@MickLH It can be enabled in questions and answers on the main sites.... do you mean in chat?

I can't even ask questions on math.se half the time because I'm yet to learn to type LaTex

We probably could use with LaTex at some point, but we don't get enough technical questions for that yet

@rolfl Really? I've been asking for that lol, on the chat too is great but I don't want to be unrealistic

We get a lot of 'how make flappy bird'

@MickLH create a post on your site's meta, and request it. You will likely have to dig up questions/answers that would 'benefit' from MathJax in order for the feature to be enabled.

It is not a 'slam-dunk' thing to do as it has the potential to mess up a lot of existing posts if they happen to use sequences that are suddenly interpreted as MathJax.

use strict syntax, and bail the entire render on any syntax error?

Perhaps, I don't know it at that level of detail. It requires some homework and procedure, that's all. And if it is not going to be worth it, then it may not be done. Just be prepared to have to justify it (as a community on meta).

totally understandable

Is anyone game for another site refactor?

We've still got a LOT of open questions.

1402... nowhere near as bad as when the last one started, but yeah, still a lot.

It looks like you have a zombie problem: data.stackexchange.com/gamedev/query/172449/…

Looks worse over 2 years: data.stackexchange.com/gamedev/query/172449/…

Care to define "zombie problem"?

Questions that are not closed, and have no up-voted answers.

looking for someone with brains to answer them.

We have the same problem on the site I moderate (Code Review), but we are getting it under control.

data.stackexchange.com/codereview/query/172449/…

What do you do when you someone is asking for clearly more than they can handle, but not broad enough to close for being off topic or too broad

@MickLH Got an example?

You're the expert there, not me ... ;-)

this person needs a math class

not a stack exchange answer

it's not the greatest example, just a random one from the homepage :/

I think he means "world cordinates"

I think that's pretty easy to answer -- invert your view matrix with your mouse

But this person really just needs a more clear, analytic idea of what they are doing

@VaughanHilts Exactly, he's asking for a basic math class

@MickLH I think the right answer is just what I said -- you've told him HOW to do it, as he asked. How he'll IMPLEMENT it, is up to him.

If you think he's asking for the math code, then it's defintely too broad. He's asking for a whole matrix and view management system.

that comes from an interesting, although probably correct, way of looking at things. that the person writing an answer should write to answer the question, not to help the asker.

I like that from the perspective of other people finding the question by searching

Ok I've got it, never mind

it feels horrible to answer an old question, because it bumps it back up to the front page. everything I've learned from forums is all fighting against me now.

It is an advantage to have it bumped.

You get 'eyes on' the question, and those people are the ones who will up-vote your answer too.

People are stingy with upvotes here. :)

But, (until recently), bumping was discouraged by the Community-wiki process... too many edits will cconvert the question/answer to CW.

when the CW conversion happens, you don't get any more rep from up-votes.

A few days ago that rule (the CW) was changed.

Now it is more subtle.... a flag gets raised if too many edits are made, and the site moderator gets to decide what to do.

I should watch SE news more closely...

The general concensus is that it is treated like vote-fraud....

but I do realize your point. It's just amusing because I've made thousands and thousands of forum posts on dozens of different forums, and I've gotten annoyed with people bumping threads way too many times. My brain now just won't accept that it might sometimes be a good thing.

if it is innocent, then let it be... if it is intentional, then CW the post.

(huh, the new information is in that old answer)

o/

hey

okay so this is extremely odd. all avatars hosted on gravatar won't load for me on this site. and the problem is isolated to this site. if I right-click on where a missing avatar should be and hit "Open image in new tab", it loads just fine.

I've done the whole clear cache and cookies and whatnot. I've also tried it on two different computers on two different networks. didn't help.

I doubt it, but it may be related to a DNS issue that the entire SE site has had today

it's been a problem for at least a few weeks. I just haven't bothered to investigate it at all until now.

Certain sites (mostly the meta sites) had a problematic DNS registration.... (and in fact were dropped from the DNS completely).

Then it is probably unrelated ;-)

mhm

I doubt DNS could do that anyway, unless it was gravatar having the DNS problem, in which case it shouldn't load even when I request the picture on its own.

ooh I found it. Ghostery is blocking everything from Gravatar for some reason.

usually it replaces it with an icon. guess not this time.

Well, it would not be a ghost if you coud see it now. ...

I don't think that's true. I mean how else would people be scared of them?

Yeah, for some reason people don't find my gravatar nearly as scary as my blue name ;-)

meh, well, it's worth blocking because of that IP Address bit

kind of annoying when a site knows everywhere I go on the internet

Disconnect also blocks gravatar, justifying it further

so I'll just let some people be invisible

LAST. MESSAGE. 6. HOURS. AGO!

Ansdd look at that, everything has been on topic

(and what has been off-topic has been friendly and polite).

oh, suspensions

I bet alex, but who else?

ah, only 8 hours, not too long then

@Lasse GnomeSlice at least

okay

btw among those 200+ deleted offtopic messages were some ontopic between me and jovito, that was lost too

^^^ which is yet another reason why to keep things more on topic.

So that it is easier/possible to figure out what is good, and what is crap

(read all the transcript) so much happened yesterday, wooha. I was mostly having lazy day sleeping, reading books, and doing homework. @JoshPetrie "...It's to augment and support the site. It's not a playground or a free-for-all." First time I came here, it was to get help for less "question fitting" problem. Then I decided to stay for more when I realized chat is not only for gamedev.

I fail to spend much time with my firends as I stick to computer too much. Even among my fellow physiscal programmer friends, I still fail to get along with them because they are not as much "driven" as me; I don't feel like "fitting" with most people. This is certainly not healthy, I remember you saying that work should not be all about life. hehehe.

As much fun as computer is, I sometimes feel lonely to just sit here and spend most of my time doing computer stuff. chat.gamedev provides me "playground"; place to talk about blend between gamedev interest and life in general. I don't think I would stay here if this chat room was to be strict gamedev supporting site.

and I would be very sad if this "playground" was to be gone :( . Being here made me feel like "member", was also motivation for me to invovle in question/answer on main site. My contribution currently is weak but I believe after 3~5 years, I can be good enough programmer to give some solid quality answer.

I wanted to add my input since your statement gave me an impression chat being sorta "playground" is inherently not-necessarily-a-good-thing; IMO it may not be a direct input to main, but I think it certainly "boost" the community. And I agree with chat needing to be a place where if someone decided to talk about gamedev/get help, feel free to visit

yep. I don't want to take part in that discussion, I just wanted to point that out

wall of text

whats that

oh, your writing

@BlueBug it's only a knee high wall of text though, but everyone knows you can't walk past those :)

yeah I should have posted in some other format then paste link instead.

@BlueBug - I can work with the 'playground' analogy.

Playgrounds are fun, happy places.

hurhurhurhur

I wouldn't mind having a general GD.SE chat

We could also all just invade The Bridge :)

yet still stometimes someone fall down and get hurt and start crying

When you have a few people monopolizing the space with drivel and banalities, it is like having bullies on the playground not letting the people who came to play, play.

thats true

Oh great, this gui layer has Z-Order for layers, but not for screens

So I have one screen for my console and one screen for my main menu, and now the main menu has a background image and I can't see the bloody console

how about implementing the console without being depended on screens?

so that it's always there, isn't that the point anyway?

@Lasse the ingame console takes over input when it's visible, I don't want it to be visible all the time =p

Think quake style console

I have always thought screens as something that you can manage what you see on screen with, and so that they are all independent from each other

Well they are completely independent from each other, I just want multiple on the screen at once (which you can)

You just can't set the order in which they're drawn except by the order in which you create the screens

okay, well that's library specific then

Jeah

I'm just gonna mod it (it's a single header/cpp file library)

libgdx does not allow multiple screens, only one at a time

Jeah, here a screen is just a collection of layers, and layers contain renderable things

and the screen managers I've implemented myself are just like that

Also, you can render Screens to textures in this library, so you can have them in 3D space

that's cool

So you kinda need multiple screens

@AlexM. #Josh "Helping people is a big part of the point of these sites. AND of this chat." "who says so?" hey Alex you are one of a few capable individuals with sufficient experience to actually be able to provide helpful resources. I can't make statement like "yeah we should help others" because I am yet less able, but I think more "main-site-like" contribution of individuals like you can have very positive effect. So, (in very small voice) I think, we should help people.

doom3 door guis were awesome

@Lasse omg yes.

@AlexM. :D...

@Lasse "door guis"? I want to know me very curious. Could you may provide me with link?

@BlueBug have you played Doom 3?

no. Doom series is a bit far from my generation from where I am from.

:(

Lo @badp

This seems relevant, if you can get through the commentary

@BlueBug holy fuck doom 3 is 10 years old o.O

fuck youtube.com/watch?v=Bj17et9haIk this is graphic 10 years ago?

@BlueBug He's playing at very low settings

the video itself is 240p

this is super neat graphic, btw and gui interface

doom3 has really outdated graphics, but it still looks damn good

There's a console command that fires up the GUI editor

Fancy, something like that is possible with this gui system yeah

you can look at all of them there

possibly even fudge around with them

The only difference is that today you'd see the soldier using his finger rather than a mouse pointer

computercraft adds screens like that to minecraft too

they are not as cool looking though

for the true touchscreen hand-covers-half-the-screen experience

@Lasse aaaaaaargh BFG edition do not want.

whats wrong with that

You can have flashlights and guns out at the same time

oh, thats stupid

...also the location indicator is not in italics

>__>

@Lasse also no mouse hover, just moues click

yeah

Aaaaah, I love my python script that auto generates boost::python bindings from headers <3

So much time saved

if (travelDirection != Vector3.Zero) {
	travelDirection.Normalize ();

	Vector3 tmp = travelDirection - Camera.Default.Direction;

	if (Math.Abs (tmp.X) > 0.0001f || Math.Abs (tmp.Y) > 0.0001f || Math.Abs (tmp.Z) > 0.0001f) {
		float dot = Vector3.Dot (travelDirection, Camera.Default.Direction);
		Vector3 cross = Vector3.Cross (travelDirection, Camera.Default.Direction);
		travelDirection = Vector3.Transform (travelDirection, Matrix4.CreateFromAxisAngle (cross, dot));
		travelDirection.Normalize ();

I guess that's not the way to implement FPS camera

or then I am doing something very wrong there

@rolfl not trying to start anything here and because of this this will be the last time you and I interact with me being the source but

Hey

I think me and gnomeslice being suspended was unfair, and I'd like to hear the objective reason you did it for

especially with gnomeslice

do you want to talk about the suspensions seperately yours/his ?

Are you satisfied that your chat was completely off topic?

I want simple reasons; I broke rule #X, and he broke rule #Y

anything else is just your personal view