Game Development

RhysW

16:00

@Almo feel better?

user4704

It's just text substitution, it doesn't cause the compiler to "remember" that it has seen symbols elsewhere and use those.

MrPlow

hmm... I never really thought how source files worked so no wonder I got confused

user4704

At the crux, you probably have a scenario like this:

user4704

codepad.org/RtXCeAE5

user4704

Two headers, both of which include eachother for some reason.

user4704

16:02

Each individual header looks fine, if you at them alone.

RhysW

@JoshPetrie visual studio is good for this, if you try and create a circular reference it slaps you and doesnt let you do it

user4704

@RhysW No it doesn't. You can create circular includes in Visual Studio, and it's fine.

user4704

But if you include A.h (only) from some .cpp file, you get odd errors in B.h about how the base class (A) doesn't exist. Often this confuses people because they think include guards solve the problem, and B's header says "include A" so everything should be fine, right?

RhysW

@JoshPetrie im talking c#,

if you try to make two things reference eachother, it doesnt allow it

user4704

@RhysW Well, we're not, so that's irrelevant.

RhysW

16:05

jeez ok, i was only saying...

user4704

But including A causes B to be included before anything else, and B tries to include A (and aborts, since A's guard symbol was defined). The resulting TU begins with:

user4704

codepad.org/cUGsv6mw

user4704

Which is clearly impossible to compile

MrPlow

Ah I see... that makes sense

user4704

IDEs don't feed compilers header files.

MrPlow

16:08

thanks for clearing things up for me

user4704

They feed them source files only; the preprocessor pulls in all the headers to create a TU which is compiled in isolation. (Generally, feeding header files to your compiler is a bad idea.)

user4704

@RhysW You can still, even in C#, create circular references between interfaces. You can't create circular references between assemblies, and that's not a feature that VS alone provides (it's a feature that is mandated by the CLI specification).

user4704

It is much easier for C# toolchains to handle because they are allowed to use a far more advanced and modern compilation model than C++ uses.

user4704

C++'s model (which is basically C's model) is from the dark ages.

MrPlow

I hate doing things in a circular way but that's the only way I see fit to have managees reference their owner manager to get necessary data

Shotgun Ninja

16:13

forward-declare A?

user4704

@MrPlow You could avoid that relationship altogether.

RhysW

@JoshPetrie this is pretty much what i was trying to say, yeah

user4704

The existence of a thing called "manager" is often an indication of a half-solved problem.

MrPlow

so managers are bad?

user4704

And when something like that does need to exist to help maintain or control the lifetime of subordinate objects, generally the subordinate objects should not know about what manages them.

user4704

16:15

@MrPlow They are generally a sign of bad things.

Shotgun Ninja

@JoshPetrie So my Entity Manager in my ECS implementation is a bad thing?

RhysW

@JoshPetrie in an ECS system i thought the whole point was that they used managers?

Shotgun Ninja

I figured as much, but I don't know how else to store entities and access them by ID.

user4704

@ShotgunNinja Maybe, without knowing more about it I can't say, but more often than not the answer is "yes, it's bad."

Shotgun Ninja

Well, it's a singleton.

There's one way.

user4704

16:16

@ShotgunNinja Even worse :(

user4704

@RhysW No, not at all. The whole point of a component-based entity system is to represent entities as aggregations of components.

user4704

Nothing about that means you need to have a "FooManager" for every FooComponent.

RhysW

@JoshPetrie and then have one thing to manage each compoment isnt it?

user4704

No.

Shotgun Ninja

How else would you propose retrieving the components for an entity by its ID? I have entities as bags of components, stored within the entity manager.

RhysW

16:17

how else could you organise all of the components without something to manage the components? e.g a manager for sound components?

Shotgun Ninja

Game system loop looks up entity from manager by ID, pass it to system, system checks components for match, then processes update.

user4704

(That doesn't mean you don't need something to control the lifetime of some types of components, but having the thing that does that be called "FooManager" often means you didn't think about the problem well enough because that responsibility can be taken on by other aspects of the higher-level API)

RhysW

@JoshPetrie so in shotguns example, how else would he retrieve the enties by ID to find the components to update?

user4704

And even then, there's nothign about that relationship that requires a circular reference (back to the manager from the component)

Shotgun Ninja

@JoshPetrie My Manager simply contains Entities, and provides lookup and ID registration.

user4704

16:19

If nothing else, "manager" is just a shit name because it doesn't tell you what it actually does.

Shotgun Ninja

Well, I'm open to suggestions for a better name.

MrPlow

controller xD

Shotgun Ninja

Perhaps World?

The world contains Entities

MrPlow

you can certainly make it that way

user4704

If you have a thing that stores only the live entities (presupposing you store components themselves outside the entity object itself, which is what you should be doing), then all you have is a repository or database of entities.

Shotgun Ninja

16:20

Controller is another shit name, though...

MrPlow

world which encompasses entities and systems

RhysW

@JoshPetrie ah i see your point, its not really managing its storing ID's something that could be done by a dictionary object higher in the API and closer to its useage

user4704

Both "manager" and "controller" names that imply verbs; specifically the ability to federate some verb across all the owned instances.

user4704

But all you are doing with this list-of-active-entities is storing exactly that.

Shotgun Ninja

@JoshPetrie I have my entities own their own Components. If this is wrong, how should I have them contained?

user4704

16:22

@ShotgunNinja Components should be owned and managed by the system that provides them.

user4704

For example, a physics system should provide the physics components and be responsible for their update.

user4704

This gives you better parallelism and better locality-of-reference.

MrPlow

I feel like I'm way out of my league here

Shotgun Ninja

What if components are used by multiple systems, ie. PositionComponent?

RhysW

@MrPlow nah jump right in, i havent even made an ECS and im learning stuff from here xD

@ShotgunNinja its used by multiple but only provided by one system right?

user4704

16:24

@ShotgunNinja There's several options there; one is to not have position components.

user4704

One is to create a system specifically for providing them (generally you'd integrate this with the factory for that component).

MrPlow

@RhysW the thing is I've already made all of my code using managers so to change all this would take time which I have less and less of

user4704

@MrPlow Don't change everything, just stop making new ones.

user4704

And refactor the existing ones as you need to.

Shotgun Ninja

But if, say, the rendering system and the physics system both use the location of the entity...

RhysW

16:25

@ShotgunNinja then they contact the position system to find out

user4704

@ShotgunNinja Do they?

user4704

Always?

user4704

Can you imagine a world where physics and rendering may have slightly different positions? This is the other option: you give each system its own position if it needs it.

Shotgun Ninja

@JoshPetrie Well, the rendering system only reads the position, it doesn't modify it.

user4704

Unless you have a visual effect on an entity that displaces it but doesn't modify it for collision or logic purposes.

user4704

16:27

(Logic should usually be based on physics, not render data).

user4704

So, for example, if you have a locally interpolated position for client prediction, versus an authoritative but delayed position from the server.

Shotgun Ninja

Oh, it's lunchtime. Can this wait until I get back?

RhysW

@ShotgunNinja even more reason to have it contact the position system then right?

Shotgun Ninja

@JoshPetrie This isn't a client-server architecture; I'm making a local-only game.

user4704

@ShotgunNinja So? There's nothing you lose from duplicating the data except a few bytes of space.

Shotgun Ninja

16:28

@JoshPetrie How do I keep the render component's position in sync with the physics component's position?

user4704

I can still think of scenarios this would be useful localy, too, mostly having to with the visual effects

user4704

Some higher-level system (the game, usually), is responsible for providing a way to keep the two data sets in sync.

user4704

This could be as straightforward as foreach (object) { copy render position to physics position } in the main update loop

Shotgun Ninja

Yeah, I guess that works

user4704

Or as sophisticated as building a pseudo-shared memory architecture for your component objects, which allow them to act like they are distinct from the perspective of their owners while allowing the game to set some of them up to share memory

Shotgun Ninja

16:31

But then the game has to have specific knowledge of those two systems...

user4704

The game has specific knowledge of everything.

Shotgun Ninja

@JoshPetrie Doesn't that get into the God-Object issue?

user4704

It knows what it is, and it's main responsibility is to be the game-specific bridge between every other more general system.

user4704

No.

user4704

Your game already knows about rendering and physics.

MrPlow

16:31

@JoshPetrie but then if that executes every update cycle what's the point of having them separate in the first place? The only thing the other one does is copy the first. Unless you provide some separation mechanic but then they're out of sync

user4704

Unless you don't have either.

user4704

@MrPlow That's the most trivial example; a real-world example would exclude objects that need to keep the data distinct somehow.

MrPlow

I just can't seem to wrap my head around it, I'm still too green for things like that I guess

user4704

For example (this isn't ideal, but it is illustrative) if you wanted to keep rendering idle "breathing" animations while the logic is paused, you may mark all objects that would have idle animations in some fashion, and exclude those from the copy while the game is paused

Shotgun Ninja

I'm just uncomfortable with having my game do stuff with specific systems when I've tried to keep them as generic as possible, and put the selection of components for each system up to the system itself.

user4704

16:34

@ShotgunNinja But somewhere your game says "render all the things," no?

user4704

Somewhere that game creates the renderer.

Shotgun Ninja

@JoshPetrie Not yet, actually.

I have to get to lunch. I'll be back later.

user4704

The game is the highest-level object you have, and it's always going to have visibility on everything else.

Shotgun Ninja

I'll be back later. Explain it to me then, please.

MrPlow

@JoshPetrie could you perhaps recommend any books which touch upon this topic? I'd love to learn more but I seem to be missing quite a few things to grasp it as you are presenting it right now

user4704

16:36

There's even an argument to be made that duplicating the position data in this fashion decouples rendering and physics even more, because they could be used completely independently without having to rely on some third-party system to provide them position data (or whatever else).

user4704

@MrPlow Which topic specifically?

user4704

Component stuff? API design?

MrPlow

well both

user4704

There are no good books about component object design.

user4704

The "Little Manual of API Design" is a good read: ignorethecode.net/blog/2013/02/28/api_design

user4704

16:38

This post on outboard components is worth a look too: gamedev.net/topic/…

ClassicThunder

gamedev.net/page/resources/_/technical/game-programming/…

MrPlow

@JoshPetrie thanks for the links. Should help. Though I don't feel like refactoring the whole ECS, although when I get better at this stuff I'll probably remake it with components separate from entities and with fewer managers

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

16:55

Speaking of entity systems, I've been wanting to try the components-on-systems approach where the entity is just an id and nothing else.

It forces the systems to control what's exposed. So if you want access to an entity's position, you have to ask the physics system and it'll only give you what it wants to share.

With a system where entities are just filled with components that have data, all data is completely accessible from everywhere.

John McDonald

You'll find that "everywhere" is really just the systems, which need access to the data anyway

at least that's what I've found

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

Yeah, and that works fine when you're the sole developer. But if that's the case you could as well keep everything public.

An exaggeration I know. :P

John McDonald

I know I must have non-system code, but there's not actually a lot of it.

My Scenarios aren't systems, but they also need access to the components

Vaughan Hilts

I'm back~

Quick - someone write a book on ECS

user4704

I got asked to once.

user4704

17:06

Writing technical books is a losing proposition these days.

Vaughan Hilts

Why do you think so?

user4704

Because they become outdated very quickly.

user4704

And they rarely yield (for the author at least) a reasonable rate of return.

Shotgun Ninja

Well, my structure is akin to this: gamedev.net/page/resources/_/technical/game-programming/…

Blue

<3 Hello peeps tips hat

Shotgun Ninja

17:11

and it seems like that article advocates that systems don't match up perfectly with components.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

Alternatively: Why I switched from component-based game engine architecture to functional reactive programming

Shotgun Ninja

61

Q: Role of systems in entity systems architecture

I've been reading a lot about entity components and systems and have thought that the idea of an entity just being an ID is quite interesting. However I don't know how this completely works with the components aspect or the systems aspect. A component is just a data object managed by some relev...

John McDonald

no one-box?

weird

Shotgun Ninja

accidental period

John McDonald

ah

Shotgun Ninja

17:19

It's Byte56's "key" analogy answer.

My code is essentially based on that design, borrowing some implementation details from the one that @MrPlow was working on yesterday.

Until I find some reason to explore a design where components are not stored in the entity, I will stick with what I have already.

Garan

Quick question: Generally, how much space do things take up (such as a List or an object) in C#?

John McDonald

@ShotgunNinja I should note that my design also doesn't necessarily match components to systems. It may be a 1:1 relationship, but it's often not

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

@Garan Space?

As in memory?

Garan

@William'MindWorX'Mariager Yes

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

Depends on the size. But I guess at least a few references and a few integers.

Shotgun Ninja

17:23

@JohnMcDonald Interesting. I'd like to take a look eventually and see how yours is structured.

Garan

I need to know what amount of certain type of object I could realistically instantiate

John McDonald

@ShotgunNinja yeah, it also doesn't have an entity container, but I guess you could say that my Dictionary<int, List<Component>> is pretty close

user4704

Outlook doesn't consider mailing lists I own under my "Member Of" contact tab :(

Shotgun Ninja

Out of curiosity, what language is your ECS written in, @JohnMcDonald?

John McDonald

C#

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

17:25

@Garen, For an object, it depends on the type. class is ByRef which means there's a 4/8 byte reference and then whatever data is inside it. struct is ByVal which means it only takes the space it needs for the data.

Garan

@William'MindWorX'Mariager What exactly is the difference between the two? I only just started C#

Shotgun Ninja

Okay, mine is in Java...

@Garan Do you know C++?

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

@Garan How they're treated in memory. There are few differences you'll notice.

@Garan, But if you need lots of objects in a small space, you should use structs in an array. That's how I'm storing my tiles.

Vaughan Hilts

You should use what you find comfortable.

Garan

@ShotgunNinja Only from reading, never actually done anything with it. @William'MindWorX'Mariager Tiles?

What sort of game?

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

17:27

@Garan A 2D sandbox game of mine.

With tiles that had two bytes. One for background and one for foreground, I could have billions of tiles in memory if I needed.

Shotgun Ninja

byval stuff, such as primitives and structs, are fully copied into new memory for method calls. byref stuff is on the "heap" (essentially), and references to the same object are copied into new memory for method calls, while the object those references point to remains in the same spot.

Garan

@ShotgunNinja So are byval stuff essentially immutable in that way?

Shotgun Ninja

@Garan Not quite, but when they enter a new stack frame, a new copy is created, which is destroyed when the program exits that stack frame.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

@Garan ByVal act just like basic types. So if you pass an integer to a function, changing the integer inside the function doesn't change it outside the function.

Shotgun Ninja

They are mutable within that stack frame.

Garan

17:30

Ok

That's what I meant

Shotgun Ninja

Then yes.

Garan

Immutable is the wrong term though

Shotgun Ninja

I'm not sure of the term for that.

John McDonald

byval? heh

Garan

Wouldn't that mean that byval stuff could only be modified by their own member methods?

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

17:31

@Garan Yup

Garan

Oook

That's an issue

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

But, they still only modify the copy if passed around. :)

Jimmy

ByVal couldn't even be modified by its own member methods, if you want the changes to persist outside of the function

if it's a value type

if it's a reference type, then "byval" means the reference is passed byval

MrPlow

Ok my first ECS version is finished, though now that I've had that convo with @JoshPetrie I think I've spent so much time on something so flawed and generally bad

Shotgun Ninja

I'm still sticking with my design; it may not be perfect, but it should be adequate for my purposes.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

17:34

Often a basic inheritance approach is adequate. But ECSes are interesting to try.

Shotgun Ninja

Right now, learning a whole new design paradigm would undo what work I've put into the game so far.

MrPlow

17:51

Here's the github repo of my ECS if anyone's interested . Any feedback is very welcome. Atm there are no comments but a generic example can be found in main.cpp

Vaughan Hilts

Yeah, sometimess I regret the ECS

John McDonald

heh, for me, it has been one of the best moves I've made

Jimmy

I'm a fan of learning by problem discovery. so I'm not going to ECS until I run into pain with inheritance.

Vaughan Hilts

My biggest pain with ECS is trying to keep things logical

Jimmy

That being said, I have "Systems" already since stuff like resources, models, events, messages, etc need their own processing and storage

Vaughan Hilts

17:52

The blob was so easy ;)

Jimmy

@VaughanHilts F# has this DLR feature I wish C# would add as well, where myEntity?DynamicProperty resolves to myEntity.Resolve("DynamicProperty")

which I imagine makes Entity System code look a lot prettier

Vaughan Hilts

Entity sy stems are alrady pretty clean

entity.Get<TransformComponent>();

Syntax-wise, at least.

Jimmy

so what do you mean by logical

Vaughan Hilts

I never said logical?

Oh

Above

i.e: everything that can move is proccessed

Before, I had to have very tighly built trees

And do a lot of class casting

like is ISpatial

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

@Jimmy Couldn't you use dynamic for that?

Then you just implement a resolving function and you get neat looking code.

Jimmy

18:01

yeah but then your myEntity is now declared dynamic myEntity

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

That's true.

Jimmy

the ? operator is more of a "resolve this call as dynamic, but don't throw away my type"

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

That's pretty cool.

Jimmy

or actually, not even dynamic, it's "resolve this call however I define the "?" function"

Vaughan Hilts

You still lose strong-typing, though.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

18:02

I also like the syntax is different. Not a fan of dynamic since there's no way to know if you're looking at a dynamic member or an actual member from reading the code.

Vaughan Hilts

It's still a guess fest, I guess.

Jimmy

is it just me or is Byte's spaceship game a lot like this other flash game that was posted here a while back

Vaughan Hilts

Haven't seen said other flash game

Garan

It reminds me of a simple little thing I wrote once with Love2D

Jimmy

Jun 12 at 21:16, by Byte56

That's a fun little game: http://www.captainforever.com/captainforever.php

ClassicThunder

18:11

why isn't there a cloud version of visual studio yet?

Vaughan Hilts

Looks like he be cloning.

ClassicThunder

stupid c key only works half the time

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

@ClassicThunder Cloud version?

Alex M.

https://www.humblebundle.com/

Humble Origin Bundle:

-Dead Space [Origin + Steam]
-Burnout Paradise: The Ultimate Box [Origin + Steam]
-Crysis 2: Maximum Edition [Origin + Steam]
-Mirror's Edge [Origin + Steam]
-Dead Space 3 [Origin]
-Medal Of Honor [Origin + Steam]

Beat the average:

-Battlefield 3 [Origin]
-The Sims 3 + Starter Pack [Origin]

bf3 for $5 lol

Jimmy

@ClassicThunder doesn't M$ support c9.io on Azure?

Vaughan Hilts

18:14

Do you HAVE to use origin?

Alex M.

for the origin only games yes

I don't mind though, I already have bad company 2 on origin

Vaughan Hilts

Shittty.

BF3 = origin

And EA makes sims

So Origin

Alex M.

it says to the left of each game I mentioned whether or not it requires origin

Vaughan Hilts

Yeah, I see them

Alex M.

to the right*

Jimmy

18:17

@Classic also, at least they're rolling out more syntax highlighting: hanselman.com/blog/…

Noctrine

How is BF3?

Alex M.

well, fun, it's a Battlefield game

it doesn't have any sort of real competition in its own niche

Vaughan Hilts

Bought.

Alex M.

No, Origin is not in fact bad enough not to pick the games up and you are talking out of your arse if you believe otherwise

Tweeted by Totalbiscuit on August 14, 2013 at 6:13 PM

^ I find this to be true.

Vaughan Hilts

Origin is pretty bad but not a bad price to fire up to luanch a game

Noctrine

18:23

~~Oh that's cool. All of the money goes to a tax writeoff for EA.~~ Charity

Shotgun Ninja

@Noctrine lol

Alex M.

I wonder if Dead Space 2 will unlock next week

perhaps they might unlock Sims 2 as well

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

@AlexM. Is that @Blue? :P

Alex M.

it's a sort of Blue but a lot less cool

it's Totalbiscuit

Noctrine

I really shouldn't buy games tho :\

steamdb.info/calculator/?player=noctrine&currency=us

67% untouched

Vaughan Hilts

18:28

Hah

You think that's bad

Time to show Noctrine up.

Alex M.

gonna get a new gpu soon

Noctrine

My hour count is waay off too. The top 3 games I've all fallen asleep on

Alex M.

I'm gonna buy all games I can for as cheap as I can

Vaughan Hilts

steamdb.info/calculator/…

Sheesh.

61% only?

Alex M.

steamdb.info/calculator/?player=patrunjelu&currency=us

Vaughan Hilts

18:29

Oh no wonder

My bro plays on my account, too

lol @ Alex's steam account net worth

Noctrine

Mine was around that but all my games are old now. I'm about 4 years behind in whats out.

Vaughan Hilts

lol 550 dollars

Alex M.

for some reason steam for ubuntu won't let me activate the keys

it's stuck at "scanning for game updates" when I click on the option

oh well, I'll just activate them on windows

perhaps the client is outdated or buggy

Blue

@AlexM. I love you for that comment

Alex M.

awww :*

Shotgun Ninja

18:36

steamdb.info/calculator/…

HOW DOES IT KNOW MY NAME

Vaughan Hilts

:O

Jimmy

didn't you paste in your steam profile?

ClassicThunder

how do you have bastion, braid, and terraria and never played any of them?

there is something wrong with you people :p

Vaughan Hilts

Never played bastion

own it

Garan

I have terraria, but I have 234 hours in it

Mostly because I accidentally left it open for a week and a half

ClassicThunder

18:44

lol I have 300+ ligit hours in terraria

Garan

I probably have around 20-30 legit hours of it

RhysW

yello

@VaughanHilts its good

Garan

Too bad it isn't able to count how many hours of Morrowind I've played from a disk

That would legit be over 500

ClassicThunder

I set up a server and me and my sisters played on it. bought them both the game when it was on sale at 2.50

Garan

In the steam summer sale two years ago?

Yep

Noctrine

18:49

@ClassicThunder Got it in the humble bundle, played DRM free

RhysW

guess who is back at work again :(

oops, wrong chat client

Almo

i got Lunar Flight in a Steam Sale

It appears I don't have the patience for detailed flight sims anymore :(

I used to play submarine sims

and helicopters and jets

RhysW

@VaughanHilts HOLY crap mine is much higher than i thought it would be xD

Garan

I used to play SimCopter!

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

steamdb.info/calculator/?player=76561197963816319

Jimmy

18:51

@Almo so you find LoL Tribunal a funner game than Lunar Flight.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

1218 dollars of games.

RhysW

@William'MindWorX'Mariager i just about top that

Garan

It's a shame they don't calculate how much you actually spent

RhysW

$1385.29

Almo

haha I have a managerial streak in me

Garan

18:52

Only the price of the game at the time you check

Almo

so I like swinging the banhammer, even if it's only one finger on it among many.

Garan

steamdb.info/calculator/… Also feel free to add me

Jimmy

steamdb.info/calculator/…

John McDonald

steamdb.info/calculator/?player=cell18189&currency=us

heh

Almo

Air traffic control sim: youtube.com/watch?v=WxlfVXupmwA

played that a lot

Jimmy

18:53

almost 300 hours of Mount and Blade....

Almo

that vid shows an easy level though

ClassicThunder

steamdb.info/calculator/?player=classicthunder&currency=us

Almo

it was really hard in New York.

RhysW

so many poeple at around 1k dollars xD

Garan

Actually, how moddable is Mount and Blade: Warband?

John McDonald

18:53

@ClassicThunder \o/ Someone has more hours than me!

Garan

Because it would be awesome if you could play that in a CKII map

John McDonald

(excluding the 500 hours of DoD pre-steam, 400 hours of BF3, and countless hours playing M&B and OpenTTD pre-steam)

Garan

Actually, looking at my data some of the playing times are incorrect

ClassicThunder

lol I was playing 20 or so hours of starcraft a week when I was in masters and I did that for months

Wardy

hey guys

ClassicThunder

18:56

adding sc2 + minecraft would prolly triple that :/

Garan

Anyway, does anyone know a way to do initialization AFTER content loading in XNA?

ClassicThunder

why?

John McDonald

@ClassicThunder heh, yeah

Garan

Because apparently Texture2D's are byval

John McDonald

rly?

ClassicThunder

18:57

msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/…

its a class

Garan

Huh>

John McDonald

Classes are passed byref by default

Garan

?

Vaughan Hilts

= by ref

Jimmy

classes are references passed byVal >:(

Wardy

18:58

i just had the most crazy idea how to make a dirt cheap waterfall

Vaughan Hilts

So.. pointers.

lol

Jimmy

yes

Vaughan Hilts

Fancy, fancy pointers.

Man

Garan

Hush you C++ programmers

Vaughan Hilts

@Jimmy I posted by reference on SO once.. I got downvoted to -10

All beause of that minor difference >_<

John McDonald

18:59

hah

ic

Jimmy

perhaps because that explanation works for 90% of the time then someone asks "but what happens when I pass a class byRef if it is already byRef"

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