The Biosphere

another 'Homo sapien'

06:16

@TIPS are you okay with this? :P

TIPS

06:42

@another'Homosapien' "this" is okay. It's a demonstrative pronoun and all . . .

another 'Homo sapien'

Oh I meant the size of cake

TIPS

-1 not big enough

another 'Homo sapien'

Now this is the biggest I could manage :P

TIPS

07:03

Flags as ebay spam

rg255

08:18

@WYSIWYG I saw your answer on here meta.biology.stackexchange.com/questions/3388/… - I know that the homework tag should not change how we close questions, but do you think it does (e.g. we are less prone to closing q's with the tag)?

TIPS

If you VTC HW less if it has the tag, surely you people must be weird.

On Chem I think it makes us more likely to close it.

rg255

It shouldn't change how people vote

TIPS

Shouldn't you be more focused on more realistic problems?

rg255

such as...

TIPS

Tags.

Tags are always a problem.

Writing canonical stuff to close future octuplicates as a dupe of.

rg255

08:23

Tags being a problem does not mean we cannot deal with other problems, we are capable of dealing with more than one problem at a time

TIPS

@rg255 First you have to prove it's a problem.

Find a bunch of questions that haven't been VTC'd as homework because they have homework and it's obvious they should've been closed.

rg255

Well the discussion is about exactly that, it's very hard to prove, but the meta post is there to discuss whether it is a problem

TIPS

. . . and it's not.

On a site the size of biology,

rg255

that's your opinion

personally I think it is a problem

TIPS

1. Most prolific users know how to VTC since they've been handling closing since quite some time.

2. It's not that large so posts don't get the needed eyeballs, unlike SO.

3. There isn't as big a HW problem as Chem's.

(Or Physics, or Math)

So I don't think any post goes unnoticed slash non-closed because you missed it and other people who could've VTC'd thought it's not close-worthy because it has a homework tag.

So don't make it a concern if it's not a concern @RG2.

rg255

08:30

why do you keep comparing this problem to other problems of Biology SE and other SE sites? they are not mutually exclusive - two or more problems can exist at a single moment

TIPS

@rg255 But does it exist?

rg255

seems to

TIPS

As in which post?

rg255

its very hard to test/prove because closure can be very subjective

TIPS

@rg255 There's some blatant HW everyone agrees should've been closed.

rg255

08:33

If you want examples: biology.stackexchange.com/questions/46535/…

TIPS

If those blatant HW's are non-obvious to y'all, maybe closure guidelines need some tweaks.

rg255

maybe, but you seem to think that we are not allowed to discuss the problem, because you don't think its a problem... will you allow us to discuss the use and effect of the homework tag/closure?

TIPS

@rg255 Not "not allowed".

rg255

ok

TIPS

Don't bother.

@rg255 I could agree this is HW, but if people can't be sure on it, maybe the unclear policy is to blame?

7

Q: This is the title of the meta post I just wrote

Annoying isn't it? The title on this question tells you nothing about the content of the post. Yet this happens. Its been happening a lot recently here on biology SE. And some users are repeat offenders. Just a handful of examples in the last few weeks: Is the following correct? Cell biology qu...

rg255

08:37

the poilicy is fairly well discussed and agreed upon among the regular users (and regular voters)

TIPS

Now this is a problem @RG2, and click-bait title is click-bait.

@rg255 Can I see a link to the policy?

rg255

... it illustrates a point in a light-hearted manner.

TIPS

Also, does the policy make it easy to identify them?

@rg255 (/¯◡ ‿ ◡)/¯ ~ ┻━┻

rg255

you can find the homework policy information in the help pages and meta discussions

TIPS

When you see a post, do you make your mind in the first moment whether it's closable or not?

rg255

08:39

@TIPS why? very random picture

TIPS

I understand that Biology HW could be fuzzier than, for instance, physics's.

@rg255 No, it's an internet meme. "Just right"

I meant that your meta post is "just right".

rg255

ok - didn't understand, now I feel old

sometimes its very obvious that a question should be closed, other times not - we often discuss/debate specific closures in comments or chat

TIPS

@rg255 OK then Shrug. If you feel the policy is adequate and the amount of obvious closure subjects is enough then . . .

another 'Homo sapien'

09:05

Sorry guys I couldn't join you in discussion on my question

@TIPS as you say, homework questions ARE fuzzier on biology.SE

It's so because, I think, many times even homework questions lead to a very interesting discussion

And that's because homework questions are also those questions which lack enough research

You gettin me?

TIPS

@another'Homosapien' No, it's because our HW looks like "a sample of X was burned. Did it burn?" and yours looks like "what is X called?" In the latter you can't quite tell if they're making you do their homework or they're just genuinely curious.

@another'Homosapien' That's one of their characteristics, not their definition.

Voting to close a question that lacks research solely because of this is wrong.

That's what downvotes are for.

rg255

@TIPS we have discussed this as a community at great length and decided that lack of research effort is grounds for closure (and we use the homework closure for this) - just because it's different from how you do it on Chemistry that doesn't make it wrong. We've decided that, for our community, it is better this way

another 'Homo sapien'

@TIPS that's what I want to say: asking "did it burn?" will give close-votes to a question, but asking "what is this?" might raise an interesting discussion (eg- species identification)

@TIPS I think @rg255 has given justification on this, because I ain't one of the policy makers here

But, in my opinion, it is so because lack of research is possibly the only justified reason for closing a question

Eg- Primarily opinion based questions are also sometimes rather interesting, so they aren't completely justified.

rg255

09:27

If you want evidence how about this one - the user was asked for more effort/information, their response was to add the homework tag.. biology.stackexchange.com/questions/46606/…

another 'Homo sapien'

@rg255 we've had some nice discussion over that user's mentality, but yeah, it's a good example

rg255

that user really .. how can I put this delicately... rubs people up the wrong way

2

another 'Homo sapien'

Since it isn't closed yet :P

Not your fault here ;)

TIPS

@rg255 In more than one site.

Saw 'em in meta.SO's furnace the other day.

@another'Homosapien' What? Hell no.

You close questions for other reasons than just lack of effort.

And they're at least informative about those other reasons.

rg255

09:50

@TIPS again, here we have discussed lack of effort and made a community decision to close such questions

we are allowed to do things differently to Chemistry SE

TIPS

@rg255 Well of course. Who said otherwise.

"Don't close lack of research" isn't a Chem.SE meta rule @RG2. It's one of the core SE rules.

Also why "lacks minimal effort" went the way of dodo.

Martin - マーチン

@rg255 Thanks for the welcome :/

Is that really that common to cut down the questions that harshly?

TIPS

@Mart the mod. Why have thou forsaken me?

rg255

@Martin-マーチン not always, it was a long question with quite a bit of unnecessary text - you are welcome to roll it back to the previous version, but concise is generally good

@TIPS where is this rule stated? I can't find it

@Martin-マーチン please don't take it as a criticism, just trying to help you get an answer

TIPS

@rg255 There are many things you can only find in obscure meta.SE posts . . . I'll see what I can find.

rg255

10:05

@Martin-マーチン I tried to make it more focussed because it was borderline unclear what your question was - you seem to ask the question what do wasps do? and then answer it in your own post... I just clarified that you are looking for a thorough explanation of their role

TIPS

@RG2 I found this but it seems the discussion led to discussing other CV's rather than the question in the title.

Martin - マーチン

Well I included the research I did to let people know where I'm coming from...

I was just a bit surprised how deep you went. It's not common on chemistry

Anyway, I'll have to let it sink in...

Thank you for your effort

WYSIWYG

@rg255 as far as I am concerned I don't see any difference. I have not observed this keenly but I don't think people seem to VTC homework tagged questions less than the untagged ones given the same amount of effort.

However, there may be one confounding factor here.

rg255

@Martin-マーチン Are you offended that I edited it? your initial comment suggests you found me unwelcoming.

WYSIWYG

When people tag their question as homework themselves, then they are aware that they are supposed to show some effort (except that one guy who wanted a SE homework service).

So they do end up showing some effort.

The other questions closed as "homework" are genuinely low-effort and many of the users argue that it is not an actual homework. It is also difficult to make the OP understand in these cases.

With a homework question with no effort there is no chance of argument.

Martin - マーチン

10:14

@rg255 I overreacted :/

rg255

@Martin-マーチン it was only meant to be helpful - remember that Biology SE is not Chemistry SE, so don't be surprised if we do something a little different... :) would you like me to revert it back to the original version?

TIPS

@rg255 What did you edit anyway?

Martin - マーチン

naaah... I could do that myself, but I don't think that is necessary.

rg255

biology.stackexchange.com/posts/46627/revisions

ok

sorry- didn't mean to shock you :)

welcome by the way

TIPS

@Mart it's Poland vs. Japan. Volleyball Olympic qualification matches.

Martin - マーチン

10:19

no... don't worry about it... It was just that I spent quite some time reading all that garbage post that all say the same, but not really anything. I don't know how to search biology papers, I lack the vocabulary...

TIPS

and correct ellipsees

Martin - マーチン

Well it's good that you're here, so that we could chat about it. Now I need to get back to work.

TIPS

Although it's debatable whether you need correct ellipsees for searching Biology papers.

WYSIWYG

@TIPS What do you mean?

Biologists have a good sense of language.

Martin - マーチン

@TIPS I don't really have much time, so I abandoned chat... I'll be back when my schedule allows it... for now the biology question was my venture into private time

WYSIWYG

10:21

It is the physics people who are more satisfied with the xs and ys

TIPS

@Martin-マーチン OMG OMG the Japanese side is so short!

No wonder you O_o'd at volleyball players' height.

@WYSIWYG Not necessarily typography.

Not required either.

Martin - マーチン

lol... of course... they are all kinda short, I mean Japanese in general...

OK I'm gone... see y'all

rg255

bye

WYSIWYG

@TIPS That's the editorial staff's job to fix. But they are lazy bums.

rg255

the response to comments by editing question thing is irritating - but I'm done dealing with this user... are they aware that it is generally useful if a question is written in a coherent way biology.stackexchange.com/questions/46606/…

and they called me brother...

TIPS

10:33

@rg255 At least they didn't call you dear.

rg255

true, that would have been worse

TIPS

11:32

This post is rude or abusive since it's vandalism. — TIPS 12 secs ago

flag-pls

TIPS

12:30

2

A: What is guideline on use of outdated close reasons?

You need to choose a current valid close reason. Obsolete close reasons have justifications for their removal, and they should no longer be used. "Lack of Minimal Understanding" was not a bad close reason, but people were constantly co-opting it for "lack of minimal effort," which was never a v...

CC @RG2

TIPS

13:20

Oh, and this!

100

Q: What happened to the "You're Just Lazy" close vote reason?

...not literally, of course. But what happened to the previous menu of close-vote options? I find the current set unsatisfactory. Take this question that boils down to a typical java.lang.NullPointerException for example. Obviously, the question is worthless, because it's an exception that eve...

discussion stackoverflow close-reasons

CC @RG2

rg255

13:47

our use of homework for closure on poorly researched questions is equivalent to the second case in this answer meta.stackexchange.com/questions/217893/… - if its something trivial then the user should attempt to answer it.

besides, I believe we are entitled to have our own interpretation of closure reasons - it's not just me closing these things, its a community level decision - if the community consensus was that we should not close minimal effort questions then I wouldn't vote to close such questions

TIPS

@rg255 Well, same thing happens on Chem.

rg255

14:47

homework is really one of the most contentious issues here on bio - ~7% of bio.meta questions feature the h-word...

TIPS

15:10

@rg255 Only 7 percent?! :P

131 out of 1152 meta.chem posts contain the H-word here.

That's more than 11 percent. ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ

rg255

15:27

oh my, you lot are obsessed!

;P

Transcript for