Discussion for Evolution of "Hello World"

Martin Büttner

09:18

could I get some feedback for the last bullet point?

9

A Different Kind of Meta Regex Golf domino-coding code-golf regular-expression I just wanted to record this idea here before I forget it. However, I will hold off posting it until I'm convinced that domino coding is actually a good idea for PPCG (which I'm currently not). Feedback under the pre...

HostileFork

10:30

Can you lobby someone to change their answer in order to "set up" a solution in an unused language?

I can do Red in 8 from #107, but perhaps some change in the markup would still be legal and cut the required missing character. But I don't know wikimedia markup nuances well enough to know. Here's distance 8:

{|--#[][.]#i--#main()   }print{
Hello World!
};|--#[;]#bye;dnl</>"%

Technically speaking, if stderr is ignored then the semicolon to comment to end of line wouldn't be necessary, as it has printed the message to stdout by then. But it says "all programs must be valid".

Well, actually it is required there, because of the unpaired bracket with the semicolon inside, so the source wouldn't be load-able otherwise. So nevermind on that.

Their answer looks to work with only distance 6 instead of 7:

{|--#[][.]#i--#main()   {puts(,
Hello World!
|---#[;]#bye;dnl</>"%

If they used that move to kill the comma or the paren, I could do it in 7.

Hm, I'm counting wrong.

user23013

10:45

It is possible. But... I think it is not good to change the answer after 4 hours.

HostileFork

I guess killing the 1 was already a voluntary attempt to try and help with the 7th character, doesn't seem to have been necessary.

user23013

Yes. I think I'm wrong. It doesn't look possible. The only thing I can change is the 1.

HostileFork

@user23013 Can you explain what it's doing?

The paren is okay it just has to be closed; parentheses around single items have no effect. Also PRIN is a version of PRINT that doesn't output a newline (not my favorite word in the language) So:

{|--#[][.]#i--#main()   }prin({
Hello World!
});|--#[;]#bye;dnl</>"%

But that's also distance 8. :-/

Basically curly braces are an alternative notation for strings using an asymmetric delimiter, and a string literal just does nothing in the evaluator if it's not an argument to something. Semicolon comments to end of line.

user23013

11:01

{| begins a table. Everything else in that line should be HTML tag attributes, and ignored if they aren't valid attributes. |- is similar, but begins a table row.

HostileFork

So is it:
{|<invalid stuff, ignored>
Hello World!
|-<invalid stuff, ignored>

user23013

Yes.

HostileFork

Okay, so that's {| for 2, minus the quotes for 2, |- for 2, and then 1 leftover?

user23013

I removed the 1.

HostileFork

I mean to say it seems you could have removed anything

If so then if you had changed the puts(1, to puts;1, then I could do 7 with

{|--#[][.]#i--#main()   }prin;1,
"Hello World!"
;});|--#[;]#bye;dnl</>"%

Sp3000

11:13

And then I could follow up with

\{|--#[][.]#i--#main() }prin;1,
/"Hello World!"
>?!;o
});|--#[;]#bye;dnl</>"%

... which I've been waiting for 3 days to do

:D

user23013

Ah, I didn't know Red so I didn't know the comment character.

Is it good to change the answer after 4 hours?

HostileFork

@user23013 It seems like it's a reasonably flexible challenge in most part with a goal of creating a long chain and bringing in markup languages and such. I dunno. It's 4 hours from 3am to 7am where I'm at.

user23013

11:28

@Sp3000 it printed:

el ol!
something smells fishy...

archaephyrryx

I think it would be amazing if we could get to Malbolge eventually. The shorter "Hello World!" program listed on the Wikipedia page for the language seems like an attainable yet distant (no pun intended) milestone. We were aiming for C, and now we should have a new goal to motivate new edits. Otherwise the answers will eventually diverge too much.

Sp3000

@user23013 Hm that's weird... which interpreter are you using?

user23013

gist.github.com/anonymous/6392418 this one

Sp3000

Program flow should just be down, left, down, right right right right until printing is done

user23013

>l?!;o worked.

Sp3000

11:33

Oh right, I forgot the l

Hmmm

I think the interpreter I'm using is buggy.

(but that means a distance of 8, so I'm screwed anyway)

user23013

Which interpreter are you using?

Sp3000

2

A: Interpret ><> (Fish)

Python, 978 980 981 import sys,random f=open(sys.argv[1]).read().split('\n') s=t=[] d=p=x=y=k=0 r='n' h='0123456789abcdef' while h: c=f[y][x] if k:k=0 elif p: if c==p:p=0 else:s+=[ord(c)] else: for l in (h+'''0123456789abcdef`s+=[h.find(c)] ><^v`d='><^v'.find(c) x`d=random.randint(0,3)...

Probably not the best idea in hindsight

user23013

It seems like this is just a different version of Fish.

Sp3000

"Skips the following instruction if top of stack is zero, or stack is empty. (note: this does not pop anything off the stack!)"

... ah.

... thanks for the heads up XD

user23013

The grammar has changed. So yours should be acceptable.

Sp3000

11:46

I'll wait til I can squeeze in all of >l?!;o :)

user23013

12:06

Oh there is already another answer.

@archaephyrryx That's harder than Java.

Sp3000

Java < Malbolge < Whitespace < BF?

user23013

And Unary is impossible

HostileFork

12:22

Hmmm. Well in 7 I can get to:

;--#[][.]#i--#main(){puts(
prin"Hello World!"
;--#[;]#bye;dnl</>"%

I don't find that as interesting, though. "Hey this language has a four-letter variant of PRINT that doesn't output newlines". Especially because I've been arguing to replace PRIN with the more literate and more uniform PRINT/ONLY

user23013

Languages like ferNANDo is harder. Because there are no multiline comments / strings in many languages.

user23013

12:42

I think I should have edited. It's much easier to modify the Basic answer to derive from your answers.

HostileFork

13:01

If that basic answer gets deleted I can't do Rebmu:

{#--#[][.]#i--#main(){puts(
i\}}
p"Hello World!"
q
#;[;]#bye;dnl</>"%

Well it should be possible to Rebmuify almost anything, I just liked the two braces to close bit and the quote of the none at the end

Beta Decay

13:20

How is dnl</> still there?! It's been two days!

HostileFork

Junk DNA, it's how evolution works.

3

Beta Decay

13:34

Haha. You know, I'm surprised that after C, no one went to C++ and beyond...

HostileFork

Offhand I don't know any C++ compilers that allow the omission of the header #includes.

HostileFork

21:25

Well if I'm going to throw in Rebmu here, it should be a set-up. I've personally discouraged Rebmu answers to code golf questions being distinct from Rebol answers...despite believing it a wacky enough concept to deserve its own language designation.

It has asymmetric multi-line string delimiters with strings ignored, semicolon to comment to end of line, and p meaning print. This means nearly any program with XXXHello World!YYY can be solved as {XXX}p"Hello World!"{YYY}, for 7, even if there are line breaks inside XXX and YYY.

Exceptions to that formula would be if XXX or YYY contain curly braces

For amusing Rebmu fun with asymmetric delimiters, for anyone who missed it:

15

A: Programming Dichotomies (Literally)

Rebmu: 79 chars OR (37 + length(p1) + 2 * max(length(p2), length(p3))) First I'll give a 79 character solution that asks Which languages must you learn? (entropy 4.0, 30 letters not including ?) and offers you the suggestions of Rebol and [Red]: DD 11 DD :do dd {dd {p{Which languages must yo...

I like looking at these things in terms of generalized transformations, vs. the specific. So in that case, I was looking how to interleave arbitrary programs with a driver

Anyway, most any program that has the uninterrupted sequence Hello World! could thus be achieved, and it would be a bit of a spoilsport thing to go in and remove characters out of that. You feel like the person who broke the chain letter.

Has any program yet not contained the consecutive characters Hello World!?

Calvin's Hobbies

21:48

@MartinBüttner I've looked at the regex question more and I think Geobits has a point about the scoring. Maybe it could be something like (avg num of chars added for all your answers) - (number of times you've answered), min score wins.

HostileFork

Hmmm...funny, Rebmu is case insensitive, I never really thought if there's a better canonization than all lowercase for symbols. So pQhelloPqWORLD! would output "hello world!" Is there a more general truth to canonizing a case insensitive symbol with an initial capitalization when output as a string? :-P

FireFly

Still going strong o.o

HostileFork

Odds are more people think uppercase letters are canon. I wonder if the Natural Programming people have done studies on how often people do case-insensitive testing by converting strings to lowercase vs uppercase.

I liked the tests they did where they got people and tried seeing their responses to going to a box of fruit and following the instruction "bring me back something that's not an apple or a pear"

It was only the very few smartass programmer types who would bring back a pear to be "contrarian" or "correct". Few considered that a natural response.

Calvin's Hobbies

@MartinBüttner I think the odd even thing you mention would make it too cumbersome logistically (making sure the regex does or doesn't match all 20+ previous answers would be a pain). But I also see how otherwise it would be too simple.

HostileFork

Interestingly, I think of lowercase characters as canon. If I don't press shift and hit "A" then I get a. In that sense, the print on the keys is actually rather misleading.

Anyway, I don't know if at this point mutating the program to not contain the contiguous string Hello World! would be considered jerkish.

FireFly

21:58

I'd convert to lowercase rather than uppercase, FWIW

It's an interesting question

HostileFork

I should do some corpus searches, because in general I think I do lowercase. It's hard to understand exactly why, but perhaps because of an aversion to the "visual" of turning a string into all uppercase...like the way people say "STOP SCREAMING"... or perhaps the feeling of unsophistication as if the system you're dealing with has no lowercase.

But there is the canon of the keyboard. Which I suddenly find bothersome. If I press something marked A I should not be getting a.

FireFly

I'm not sure why I do it. Perhaps I consider it canonical because of commands (shell, IRC, etc) typically being lower-case, and something that is not too uncommon to want to compare case-insensitively

HostileFork

A guy I know went and marketed a concept I evangelized in college. He read a paper about it that came after me, but after researching we found at least one other person on the record before me. Pi should be twice its current value

I wonder if I should take these ideas and market them as "improving the truth of your world". Lowercase letter replacements for the keys on your keyboard. Sell it to objectivists. a is a, not A is a!

Someone else I know said that if you wanted to make money, after it was announced that Pluto wasn't a planet, all you had to do was find some hokey personality to use to author a book: "The Pluto Correction"

And have it explain how critics of astrology who found problems with it were merely discovering some small nuances due to the improper categorization of Pluto as a planet.

Now that we know Pluto isn't a planet, here's how the adjustments solve the previous slightly aberrant predictions to align them with observation.

Ah, damn ethics and/or laziness. :-/

Calvin's Hobbies

@HostileFork I'm not totally sure how you got started on your tangent but maybe this will solve your problems.

HostileFork

@Calvin'sHobbies I was thinking about ways in which to sabotage the contiguous Hello World! string in a way that would be hard for people to come back from.

Martin Büttner

22:10

@Calvin'sHobbies doesn't work either

I've been trying a few things, none of them work in the long run

the only thing I've got left now is "match all but 5 previous answers"

HostileFork

@Calvin'sHobbies The Optimus Maximus was always the gateway to the future. Where in the future there are five fingers on the left hand, and five on the right hand, as it always has been and always will be.

Martin Büttner

@Calvin'sHobbies I want to scale the denominator with the number of the answer, but that'll have to wait until I find a version that's actually feasible

Calvin's Hobbies

22:26

@MartinBüttner Well you could do it like you had it (just match previous) but forbid a new character each time like in my ASCII movie challenge. Only I think you should set the order characters are removed in, then you can put the regex special characters near the end.

I'm not certain this would turn out well, but its a possibility.

Martin Büttner

I'm not a big fan of having new challenges in a new genre be too close derivatives of each other, to be honest.

Calvin's Hobbies

22:50

Yeah. I'd like more variety too before a tag is properly established or anything.

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Discussion for Evolution of "Hello Wo…