The Heap™ – Consultancy ©® - 2013-04-02 (page 1 of 3)

Krazer

00:00

@ypercube we should talk more you guys seem like nice ppl :)

Aaron Bertrand

This feels to me like cops harassing speeders but letting the texting-and-eating-while-swerving-or-driving-too-slow-in-the-fast-lane go about their business.

ypercube

@Phil We did raise a few (gmh) flags.

Aaron Bertrand

This kind of crap goes on and on and on:

Can we not try to bully users into accepting answers when the question isn't even an hour old? — Aaron Bertrand 1 min ago

Yet someone dares to say feck and he's banned from chat. shrug

Phil

I guess I'm the winner because I was in the pub :)

Aaron Bertrand

@Phil dude do you ever leave the pub? Is it only to go to a different pub?

Krazer

00:01

@AaronBertrand I agree that there have been instances where some mods acted too hastily, but mods are people too, they do make mistakes from time to time.

ypercube

@AaronBertrand for spelling errors. It's "fuck"

Aaron Bertrand

@ypercube touché

Phil

@AaronBertrand Only day off for the next 3 weeks

Aaron Bertrand

Now, do I flag @ypercube's dirty word...

ypercube

@Mysticial You are a mod, too?

Mysticial

00:02

@ypercube No. But I'm just another 10k user who can see normal chat flags.

Aaron Bertrand

@Krazer but it still seems like a pretty solid concept. Don't know the culture/site of the room, maybe not act the most hasty to a flag, and leave it to another mod.

ypercube

Oh, so a 10k in any site can see flags in any chat room?

Al Ummat مجاهد

@ypercube yes

Mysticial

@ypercube Kinda. Depends on the chat server.

Aaron Bertrand

I really think we're a bunch of adults in here and we can handle a few swear words without anyone going home crying. I think if someone finds something offensive here, it should go to site-specific mods rather than the entire SE network (most of whom, no offense, are clueless about the types of conversations we have here).

Mysticial

00:06

10k combined on any site lets you see the flags on chat.SE.
SO and meta.SO are separate and you need 10k on those specific sites to see flags in their respective chat servers.

Aaron Bertrand

I will gladly take punishment from @Jack, @JNK, @JCole because I know they will weigh the transgression fairly. This was stupid.

Simon Righarts

@AaronBertrand Right, but we also run the risk of becoming a clique that way

Aaron Bertrand

@SimonRigharts why? If I tell you to ___ my ___ I'm pretty sure it won't be tolerated just because I'm a regular.

@SimonRigharts we don't have to be a clique to be allowed to say fuck in certain contexts.

This was like my mom showing up at poker night and telling us to mind our language.

I'm all for censorship when someone says something stupid. But not just because they swore.

Phil

@SimonRigharts A clique? The regular users here (that aren't even mods) do loads of work. We chat in her, sort things out,. People have been hired after being locals here!

bluefeet

boo, i write a good answer and the user posts their own pivot solution. I am done

1

A: Pivoting 2 columns from 3 Tables and creating pivot-column-names to avoid conflict - SQL-Server 2008R2

I personally would do this a bit different. Since you are trying to pivot two separate columns that screams to use the UNPIVOT function. The unpivot will convert your multiple columns into rows to then pivot. Since you have SQL Server 2008, you can use CROSS APPLY and values: select id, cour...

Max Vernon

00:12

I don't see any evidence of cliqueness here. It seems to me the high-rep users who frequent chat love to bring new people in here to chat about SQL problems and are very well mannered when they do. I highly doubt anyone who is involved in a conversation with the word "fuck" in it is going to be offended by anyone else here.

2

Simon Righarts

Never mind :p

Mark Storey-Smith

@SimonRigharts See your point but if someone is offended by swearing, they really should head for the door instead of complaining.

Simon Righarts

Agreed, but I was just pointing out that it could be seen as a clique if we start trying to dictate who should mod us. :)

Aaron Bertrand

@SimonRigharts not so much who individually, just mods that are familiar with this site. Just like these mods don't moderate content out on the proper site, can't the chat sites also be the domain of site-specific mods?

Mysticial

On chat.SO, when profanity gets flagged, usually a bunch of regulars will instantly clear the flag and then call out/troll whoever flagged it. (even if we can't figure out who flagged it)

Simon Righarts

00:17

@Mysticial So basically what you're saying is we all need to get 10k rep on DBA.se (because SO and mSO are separate) and then we can start modding ourselves?

Awesome ... except for that 10k rep bit :p

Mysticial

@SimonRigharts Yes. Or rather, 10k combined on all sites.

ypercube

@Mysticial I don't think anyone here knew that flags can be cleared. (@JNK excluded)

Mysticial

10k users can mark a flag as invalid. If enough of us do it, it gets cleared automatically. No mod intervention needed.

Of course on chat.SO, you have tons of 10k users and only a few mods. On chat.SE, it's the opposite.

Mark Storey-Smith

@Mysticial Do we get alerted to it? I've not noticed in the past

Mysticial

@MarkStorey-Smith Nope. If your comment is flagged and you have 10k, you can sit and watch helplessly as other 10ks pile on flags.

You can see the flag on your own comment, but you can't act on it.

ypercube

00:20

I saw the flag on Aaron's comment (and the number that went to 3) but I didn't know I could do anything.

Mysticial

Note that this only applies to normal chat flags. The custom flags are mod-only.

Aaron Bertrand

@Mysticial I was banned within about 30 seconds of posting my comment. So I don't see how it would have been possible for anyone to have rejected the flag before trigger-happiness set in.

Mysticial

@AaronBertrand Then it was clearly a mod who acted on it.

Even on SO, it takes at least several minutes to ban someone without mod-intervention - even for the most offensive of posts such as racial slurs against another user.

Mark Storey-Smith

@Mysticial Which is basically where our grumble originates from

Mysticial

Yeah...

Aaron Bertrand

00:23

@MarkStorey-Smith precisely

And which is why I alluded to trigger-happiness. And suggested that chat sites should be moderated by site-specific moderators.

Mysticial

I'm mean like... if it becomes a big enough issue that the higher-ups care about, they easily make a global announcement to all mods to be less trigger-happy with chat flags.

That's what the TL is for I assume.

Aaron Bertrand

You get the entire pool here, and as @ypercube demonstrated, a valid comment got deleted because of a single flag. At least it didn't end in a chat-ban, but still, that's pretty dumb. Someone could flag me for saying "I like red shoes" and a mod is going to stomp on it? When did we turn communist?

Simon Righarts

@AaronBertrand I don't think that would ever happen (unless there's a mod that's redshoeist) :p

(mostly I just wanted the chance to say redshoeist. what a ridiculous word.)

jcolebrand

@AaronBertrand mods tend to flush those as invalid ya know

@AaronBertrand we do have a bit of a standing rule fwiw to not step on someone else's turf without it being a flagrant issue.

like, if I saw a flag in The Comms Room I'mma ignore it.

There's several mods in that room all the time

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand "tend to"? So @ypercube's example was a poor one, an exception, something else?

@jcolebrand so why can't this site be left to police itself?

jcolebrand

00:28

@AaronBertrand in re 8774818 if they have an issue with swearing then I'm in trouble.

Aaron Bertrand

Do we need another mod? And no I am not volunteering.

jcolebrand

@AaronBertrand you mean on chat? because of the way they built the underlying engine. They didn't see that being an issue.

@AaronBertrand it's like you have many crystal balls ...

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand well if you can ignore flags in the comms room, the other mods could easily ignore flags in here (whether the system forces it or not).

jcolebrand

@AaronBertrand I wasn't here, and it doesn't have to be mods clicking the flag links, it can be 10k users.

@AaronBertrand yeah, no argument there. There's even a little [x] to make it go away

but I don't know what happened, even though I can guess from the recent chat log of what's being discussed

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand so you're suggesting multiple 10K users, in here, flagged my comment as offensive? I really doubt that.

jcolebrand

00:30

@AaronBertrand no, validated it without looking at it.

Mysticial

@AaronBertrand I highly doubt it as well.

jcolebrand

as in "no research"

It could've been 10k users on Islam.SE for all I know (I don't have tools to see flag responses)

Simon Righarts

@AaronBertrand Right, so maybe we do need a new sheriff in town :D (dibs not)

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand I was stating a pretty objective fact about what I would do should a certain phallic character show up and start spouting his shit again.

jcolebrand

10k on chat means you see all the flags

(well, most of 'em)

@AaronBertrand I wouldn't give you shit over that. I might ask if I needed to ban somebody from chat for a given reason tho

Mysticial

00:31

@jcolebrand Mods can't see who validates flags? Not that we're allowed to know, but the way you're talking implies that you don't know who validated it.

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand well I'm 10K and I don't see flags from other rooms. Do people actively go around looking for flags that will allow them to apply censorship?

jcolebrand

@Mysticial nope

@AaronBertrand you don't?

Maybe it's 20k then?

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand well I'm over 100K across sites, so I don't think that's it/

jcolebrand

hmmmmm

Mysticial

@jcolebrand He has more than me, and I saw the chat flag in this room.

jcolebrand

00:32

when I crossed 10k on SO I could see flags in chat.so

Simon Righarts

Didn't @Mysticial say that chat.so and chat.mso were separate in this?

ypercube

@AaronBertrand You didn't see the blue sign next to your comment? I did.

jcolebrand

@SimonRigharts they are separate sites, idk about perms

Mark Storey-Smith

@jcolebrand Oddly, a new counter appeared bottom left for me today. It appears to be an offensive flags counter, which wasn't there until today.

Mysticial

@SimonRigharts Yes, but having combines 10k on all sites (including SO and meta.SO) lets you see them on chat.SE. (example: I have all my rep on SO, and I can see chat flags here)

Aaron Bertrand

00:33

@ypercube yes, I saw the blue rectangle. But how would someone not in this room see it? Is there a list of all the flags through which we can apply censorship?

jcolebrand

@MarkStorey-Smith curiouser and curiouser.

Phil

What was flagged? It's fucking pissing me off that I don't know! I'm also wondering how a chat message in here got flagged? We're mostly locals and helpful!

jcolebrand

@AaronBertrand I associate blue-flag with corner-identifier. I thought they came in pairs.

@Phil there's always lurkers, unfortunately.

Mark Storey-Smith

Did @Shog9 suspending the room kick something into action?

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand I think they do.

jcolebrand

00:33

But yes, learn the customs of the locals before judging them

ypercube

@AaronBertrand I don't know. @Mysticial says he saw the flag on Shog9's comment.

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand but can a lurker flag a message without being logged in?

jcolebrand

@AaronBertrand afaik you can flag from the transcript

so, yes

Mysticial

@ypercube Yep. I was in the main Anime.SE room when I saw the flag on Shog's timeout comment.

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand I was banned within about 30 seconds. So that's some pretty quick transcript reading.

jcolebrand

00:35

@AaronBertrand yes, so I think it had to come from other users not in this room, who didn't actually investigate it

Aaron Bertrand

@Mysticial where exactly in the Anime.SE room does such a flag show up>?

jcolebrand

I can't see who clicked "yup, that's offensive" so I can't even begin to fathom

Mysticial

@AaronBertrand Same place as it does on SO. Upper-left corner of your picture.

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand which brings me back to self-policing. I should be able to say fuck without some idiot who's never attended this room flagging me.

jcolebrand

@Mysticial fwiw Mods see flags in all four corners ;-) That's why it's in the corner.

@AaronBertrand yes, I agree wholeheartedly

Mysticial

00:36

@jcolebrand ah... I didn't know that. :)

jcolebrand

And I agree that flags in this chat should go to me, and JNK, and JackD

and Shog/Aarthi/Grace, etc

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand make it so, #1!

Max Vernon

@AaronBertrand I'd vote for that if it was on meta

jcolebrand

@AaronBertrand I wish I could Captain

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand haven't got the power?

Phil

00:36

I'll get banned for my previous defensive message then. Ridiculous

jcolebrand

@MaxVernon who can submit a new Q to meta.stackoverflow.com/ask the fastest?

@AaronBertrand I just can't do it cap'n, I'm giving 'er all she's got

Max Vernon

lol

Aaron Bertrand

@Phil easy now

@Phil don't make me flag that as offensive.

Mysticial

@Phil That kind of comment would get you starred in the C++ room on SO.

jcolebrand

lmao

Aaron Bertrand

00:38

"Won't somebody think of the children!?!?!"

jcolebrand

@Mysticial pinned I expect

@AaronBertrand nobody under 14 allowed anyways ;-)

Mysticial

@jcolebrand Nah, it's not insulting enough to get pinned.

JNK

so who flagged?

I'm late to the party, kids just went to bed

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand sadly there are a few out there who pass the age check but not the maturity one.

jcolebrand

@JNK hellifiknow

JNK

00:39

who is that?

o

jcolebrand

@AaronBertrand I'm sorry, I'm trying to mature as fast as I can .... it's awful hard to type out of this oak barrel ...

Mark Storey-Smith

@Mysticial Its pretty much all I say when confronted by the bastard language

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand you know damn well I'm not talking about you. You piss me off sometimes, but not due to immaturity.

JNK

so is the whole deal aaron said something naughty and someone got offended?

ypercube

@JNK you mean who cast the first flag? Because there were many, too many flags tonight. It will be remembered as April Flags Day.

JNK

00:40

so I missed a lot I guess

Aaron Bertrand

@JNK pretty much. I described what I was going to tell Mr. Phallic if he came in here with his sh*t.

JNK

it's hard since the deleted messages don't show in my transcript

jcolebrand

@AaronBertrand I know. I just like to tease and make people smirk ;-)

@JNK you have to navigate through the room

Mysticial

@JNK Not even mods can see deleted messages from the transcript?

Aaron Bertrand

Telling us what we could talk about in here, and such... I said I would tell him to go f himself and didn't give a sh*t if it got me chat-banned or what you dba.SE mods thought about it.

JNK

00:41

@Mysticial we can see them in the live history but not the transcript

Mysticial

@JNK Then it's the same with room owners.

Aaron Bertrand

Then I got chat-banned rather quickly. :-)

JNK

@AaronBertrand I'll say that he's not exactly qualified as an expert on what's allowed in here

Mysticial

Most of the chat flags I've seen since I've joined chat.SE come from the religion sites.

And they're pretty rare, about 1 a week or so.

Aaron Bertrand

@JNK what I'm most disappointed about is that (a) someone flagged it in the first place (no concept of context, it seems) and (b) that a mod acted so swiftly and, again, without context or knowledge of the room.

Mysticial

00:43

Compared to SO where there are chat flags like every hour.

Aaron Bertrand

@JNK so as I suggested to cole I think this room will work a lot better if it either (a) got a lot more boring or (b) was able to self-police.

jcolebrand

@AaronBertrand again, it didn't have to be a mod to respond to it.

Aaron Bertrand

I prefer (b) but I don't know what's technically possible.

Mysticial

@AaronBertrand And nobody decided to unsuspend you?

jcolebrand

@Mysticial we can't.

only devs can

They're auto-bans

Aaron Bertrand

00:45

@Mysticial well I didn't really plead my case anyway

Phil

I just flagged my "Fuck fuck fuck" for LOLs.

Mysticial

@jcolebrand Interesting... Then how did Thiefmaster instantly unsuspend someone who was wrongly suspended in chat.SO?

jcolebrand

@Mysticial >.> Have I been misinformed?

Mysticial

@Phil I can't see the flag. What type of flag is it?

jcolebrand

@AaronBertrand had I known I'ld have looked into it

Aaron Bertrand

00:46

@jcolebrand ok, so someone else acted swiftly and escalated it. My point is, it was almost certainly people completely unfamiliar with this room.

JNK

@AaronBertrand Well we can politely ask the other mods to butt out

jcolebrand

@Mysticial I don't either

@AaronBertrand agreed

JNK

but if someone flags then we can't stop 10k users from approving it

Aaron Bertrand

@JNK I didn't even have time to plead my case. I saw the flag, then it went to 3, then I got logged out.

Mysticial

@AaronBertrand What exactly did you say? Feel free to mung it as necessary.

Aaron Bertrand

00:47

Well I'd love to know who was so offended by what I said to raise a flag in the first place.

JNK

@AaronBertrand Well the flagging is the easiest way to fix it

Phil

@Mysticial "flag for moderator"

JNK

was your friend in here?

Aaron Bertrand

@JNK no but like someone else said it could be flagged from transcript.

JNK

@Phil And I dismissed it so now you lost chat flag weight

@AaronBertrand dear lord

Aaron Bertrand

00:47

Oh no! Not precious chat flag weight!

JNK

then there may not be anything we can do to be honest

we are on the SE chat system here

Aaron Bertrand

@JNK but some rooms are handled differently (e.g. the tavern).

JNK

Yeah true

but it's problematic to allow say some rooms not to have flags leave the room

because then you could make a room and do whatever you want in it

Mysticial

@AaronBertrand Isn't that just a part of the meta.SO chat server?

JNK

and some messed up stuff has happened in chat

Mysticial

00:49

Or is there actual special case code involved just for the Tavern?

JNK

so they need visibility and flagging into every room

Aaron Bertrand

@JNK so moderators at large, unfamiliar with the room, are better equipped to judge whether something is "messed up" than the moderators who are very familiar with the room?

Scratch that, 10K users at large?

JNK

@AaronBertrand nope, and the HOPE is they will look at context first

Aaron Bertrand

@Mysticial no idea, that mod that invaded earlier just said it was different

ypercube

@Mysticial He has repeated it 5 times by now. The comment contained "phalic symbol"

Aaron Bertrand

00:50

@JNK well that didn't happen today.

JNK

honestly I think there are enough mods now that we can get rid of the 10k thing

the message contained nothing bad

Aaron Bertrand

@JNK oh, that's going to piss off some 10K self-appointed censors!

JNK

Mr Phallic

and f and sh*t

it was all obfuscated

Mysticial

@JNK And it wasn't aimed anybody right?

Aaron Bertrand

@JNK no the original one (that you can't see) contained the full words. But still.

JNK

00:51

@AaronBertrand well I care a lot about their feelings but somehow we will all get through this together

@AaronBertrand oh I saw the second one then

Mysticial

And even then... stuff like that gets stars more often than flags on chat.SO.

JNK

so how many flags happened tonight that I missed?

Aaron Bertrand

@Mysticial indirectly. I used a nickname that only a handful of people can directly correlate, and I said "if x happens, then I will tell them to f themselves" etc.

Simon Righarts

@JNK That's an excellent plan that I endorse without reservation.

Aaron Bertrand

@JNK I only know about mine and some apparent experimentation that took place after I got yanked.

Mysticial

00:52

@AaronBertrand That's not flag worthy.

JNK

@SimonRigharts Awesome!

Simon Righarts

Did someone edit my last comment by mistake? :o

... or not

JNK

@SimonRigharts sorry was a joke about what you said

Phil

Aaron can be to the point and hot headed at times, but the global chat flagging thing is ridiculous. How can a pop up line of text give any kind of context that any knobhead fucking wanker on SO just click on to ban somebody? Fucking stupid. I hope this gets me chat banned to prove a point.

Simon Righarts

I was just confused, is all good :)

ypercube

00:53

@Mysticial @AaronBertrand Yeah but the one described by that comment may have flagged it. Or someone else that thought it was not appropriate.

Simon Righarts

@Phil Haha

JNK

just so everyone is clear on the motivation of the chat flag system...

Aaron Bertrand

@Mysticial thank you! I didn't think so either. I suspect a certain somebody hangs out refreshing the transcript just waiting to be an anonymous dickfuck

JNK

there HAS to be a way for visibility to all rooms like this

when users can make their own rooms

and those rooms have no assigned mod or owner

there MUST be a way for bad stuff in those rooms to get to the eyes of mods

Aaron Bertrand

@JNK but this isn't a users own room, or a room with no assigned mod or owner

JNK

00:54

@AaronBertrand well there aren't exceptions

Aaron Bertrand

@JNK how can bad stuff here not get to the eyes of mods?

@JNK except the tavern

JNK

and honestly most rooms don't have a mod in them full time AFAIK

Mysticial

@AaronBertrand In the C++ room on SO, regulars can often get away with aiming racial slurs against other regulars if it's done in the right way.

And they get starred.

JNK

so the system makes sense for MOST cases

but honestly it's not working for us in this room very well the past couple of weeks

Simon Righarts

One rule for them all, one rule to bring them together, one rule to find them all and in the darkness bind them?

Aaron Bertrand

00:56

@JNK there have been very few times where I've been in here and one of you wasn't.

JNK

@SimonRigharts you would think DBAs woul be more on board with managing by standards :P

@AaronBertrand and like I said we are the exception for the system to my knowledg

Aaron Bertrand

@JNK and let me know when a comment has been flagged in here and should have been flagged.

Simon Righarts

@JNK the problem is we apply standards to others while blatantly ignoring them ourselves because we (claim to) know what we're doing :D

JNK

I don't think I can see flags for a room, just by user

ypercube

@SimonRigharts We can send a gift to the mods, to let us off their hook

Aaron Bertrand

00:57

@JNK you can't see the flag history in this room? Seems daft. I'd be very curious what our track record is compared to some of the other shit out there.

JNK

@AaronBertrand I don't think == I don't know how if there is a way

Phil

0

Q: Postgresql output doubt

I am getting output and I have to press spacebar after one page of output, I want to get rid of that, how can I and which option I have to enable. By automatically, how can I automatically execute all commands saved in a file when I logged in psql via terminal? Thanks in advance.

postgresql

Crap

JNK

I'll talk to the comms team about flagging

I think we three mods can take responsibility for this room but I don't know if there exists a way to say "leave us alone"

the only way would be to tel the actual mods to leave us alone, and even then the 10ks can still OK flags

That 10k thing bugs me a bit though since we have literally dozens of mods in chat now

Simon Righarts

@JNK Would be nice if we could declare the room a flag-free zone :D

JNK

@SimonRigharts never happen for the reasons I outlined above

Aaron Bertrand

01:00

I could write a trigger that would make it so

Mysticial

In the chat.SO rooms, when something borderline and context dependent gets flagged, it's often that 10ks from other rooms will validate, while the people in the room will invalidate.

Aaron Bertrand

@Mysticial unfortunately there's seldom enough bodies in this room to counteract all the censors out there.

I would guess never, actually.

Mysticial

How many 10ks are here usually?

JNK

a lot honestly

Mysticial

It only takes 2 to invalidate a flag that has not been validated by anyone else.

Aaron Bertrand

01:01

In this room, or on chat in general?

JNK

most of our users are 10ks in here, or a lot of them

Mysticial

@AaronBertrand In this room.

jcolebrand

Nah, there's no way to see the old flags, that I can find

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand but still, as a collective, the mods must be able to count on their hands the number of flags they've actually witnessed in this room. It's not like they happen, the comment disappears, and nobody bitches about it.

jcolebrand

Sure, I hardly ever see one in here

JNK

01:03

very rare

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand and if you wanted to make the case that we are adults and can self-police, I'm sure the devs could validate that.

(Or invalidate it, I suppose, if there have been a bunch of flags that, somehow, none of us has noticed.)

jcolebrand

All change requests go through meta.stackoverflow, we don't have any other venue.

I think that chat rooms belonging to a graduated site, or with mod-room-owners, could be restricted to that site's rooms for validation

Mysticial

I've done one through a direct comment to Shog. That one went through.

But that was because it was such an obvious bug...

Aaron Bertrand

No I know, I'm just saying that someone with database access should be able to validate (not saying you'd be asking them to make a change)

jcolebrand

@Mysticial obvious bugs != modifications to suit a purpose

@AaronBertrand oh, to see who said it was offensive and earned you the ban?

I would rather put effort into just having them change the engine

They rarely discuss flags

Aaron Bertrand

01:06

@jcolebrand NO. Focus, man. I'm saying that a dev, or someone else with database access, could validate that there haven't been a lot of flags in the history of this room. And possibly that the ones that were raised were questionable. Not talking at all about who did what today.

Max Vernon

@AaronBertrand and we'd know about database access...lol

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand again, if we needed to show that we deserve an exception, there should be data to support it.

jcolebrand

@AaronBertrand oooh, but that has nothing to do with stopping it happening again

@AaronBertrand I see

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand it does have the chance of stopping some wanker mod unfamiliar with this room from acting on a flag.

@jcolebrand (and as @JNK suggested the 10K stuff should go anyway)

Mysticial

@AaronBertrand On all the servers? Or just chat.SE?

jcolebrand

01:09

I'm trying to think of how to get them to change the rules so that it's not about "a user got chat-banned for using swear words" because then folks'll just say "be an adult, don't swear"

@Mysticial just chat.se

Mysticial

I don't think any flag lasts long enough to get cleared by 10k users on chat.SE. There's so many mods.

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand which is, I suspect, what happened today. If there were an edict that says leave those folks alone, they're grown-ups, then maybe they'd be less trigger-happy.

jcolebrand

@Mysticial hence the discussion that we're having

Aaron Bertrand

I don't really care, to be honest. If I can't say fuck without getting banned, then guess what? I can find something else to do with that half hour (or the rest of the day, or the rest of the week...)

jcolebrand

@AaronBertrand edicts don't work well. Don't apply rules to a people problem when a technology fix will do. If you can eliminate the people problem by changing the technology, then so be it.

Aaron Bertrand

01:11

@jcolebrand fine. But @JNK's objection was that we can't have a technical exception. So in lieu of a technical fix, tell them to stop being f*cktards.

I came back in here after several requests to come back. So I came in, stated my conditions for staying, and promptly got banned.

Did I use language more colorful than necessary? Yes. Should it have offended anyone > 14 years of age? Absolutely not.

I'm not one to mince words, and I'm never going to be. I can try to be thoughtful and put little asterisks in f*ck and sh*t but if a dicknose is being a dicknose I'm going to tell him he's being a dicknose.

Ok well that's enough excitement for me for one day. Have a keynote demo to work on... ciao everyone (and Phallic)

Shog9

@Mysticial that can go (has gone) too far before too; folks should be able to walk into a room without feeling like they've accidentally stumbled into a hate-group meeting.

Simon Righarts

@Shog9 So you're saying we shouldn't be chanting "death to the mods!"? ;)

Mysticial

@Shog9 Yeah. Though I've only seen it gone bad once before. And that was more than a year ago.

Shog9

@JNK even if 10k-users pile on, it still takes 6 of them. I'd prefer a system where stuff wasn't escalated to the mods unless a room lacked enough 10k users to review them in a reasonable timeframe.

Mysticial

I don't think I've ever seen racial slurs aimed between regulars in the C++ room. But insults about intelligence and competency are very common. And they usually get starred.

Mark Storey-Smith

01:26

@Mysticial Racial slurs don't result in a permanent ban? Bizarre.

Mysticial

Here's an example of a hilarious insulting comment from one long time regular to another long time regular:

in FORTH on Stack Overflow Chat, Mar 2 at 21:45, by jalf

@DeadMG eh, fine. I have no clue how you managed to screw it up, but it is actually rather simple for anyone who's spent more than half an hour with a computer. I have no doubt that it anyone can fuck it up, it's you, and I have no doubt that you're going to blame everyone but yourself and swear blind that Ubuntu just hates you. And that's fine. None of my business...

Shog9

@MarkStorey-Smith I slapped someone down for 12 hours or so a while back, and we've certainly destroyed accounts from the creeps hitting on kids. But the C++ room is usually able to self-moderate, so if you keep coming back with crap you just keep getting banned.

JNK

01:58

We don't have those issues here thankfully

Marian

08:20

Yay! @AaronBertrand is back. Welcome!

And what a storm has been in the chat room :-). Our playground gets popular.

Marian

10:05

0

Q: mysql: how many disk seeks were made for a select query

I will fire a select query. I want to know how many disk seeks does that query take. mysql documentation has given formula for full table scan. http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.1/en/estimating-performance.html

mysql sql tuning

I believe he's answering his own question there, but a MySQL master should check.

Phil

11:30

Any more drama? :)

Jack Douglas

12:25

@AaronBertrand That's not quite what you said in the message that got deleted ;)

for the record: in my eyes the problem with your comment was not the swearing but the personal attack. ignore the guy, be better than him, complain to him in a private room, get a mod involved if he won't listen, you have plenty of better options than doing what you did

2

also for the record: it's great to have you back in here :)

Aaron Bertrand

Uh huh

Jack Douglas

@Phil what have you got against downvotes? I downvote loads

Yes this! Downvotes for everybody! That's why we have them. — jcolebrand Oct 3 '11 at 15:31

Aaron Bertrand

@JackDouglas what was the personal attack? That I would tell him to f himself if he started telling us what we could and could not talk about in here again?

I'd call that more of a promise.

Jack Douglas

@AaronBertrand I was more referring to the wordplay with his name

he has no right to tell us what we can talk about in here: you won't be the only one telling him that

I get the feeling this is pretty much the main SO chat-room for sql

Aaron Bertrand

@JackDouglas oh, that again. Well, in case you missed it, I had an exchange with him on SO where I called him a dick. Since that is the short form of his name (and I'm quite familiar with it as it is one of my middle names, and also my father's first name, and I've heard my mom use that term quite affectionately). He laughed and said "well played" - so I don't think he has any precedence to pretend to be offended by it.

Jack Douglas

12:35

Call him what you like on SO :)

or if you have genuine affection for him

anyway, I'm sorry it got flagged and yes new mods are click-happy

Aaron Bertrand

Well the thing is I have plausible deniability if I say Mr. Phallic or something else, but still everyone knows what body part I'm talking about.

Anyway my point was I'm not going to put up with his shit but if he keeps it up I'm simply not going to come here anymore. It was pretty stress-free not being in here for several days, actually.

I just think he likes to come in here and antagonize when he's bored.

Jack Douglas

If I see him antagonising I'll lecture him

Aaron Bertrand

Did you see what he did the day I left?

Jack Douglas

Did he dance a jig?

Aaron Bertrand

@JackDouglas maybe, I stopped watching.

ypercube

12:40

@Aaron For the record, the previous incident, about a week ago here, at this chatroom, was my fault.

Jack Douglas

@ypercube nothing is ever only one person's fault ;)

Aaron Bertrand

@ypercube I don't think so. Regardless of why he came in here, he came in here and told us that we don't have any right talking about VtCs on SO. I didn't know we had appointed censors.

And then when I called him on that, he said multiple times, "Still holding that grudge Aaron?"

ypercube

Your comment had "dick" and I misinterpreted and I was the one that flagged it. Then the mods invaded and you were banned. I hadn't known that a flag and (additional flags by mods or others) and the removal of the comment can lead to a ban.

Aaron Bertrand

To which I could have replied a variety of pot-kettle-black stuff but decided to leave instead.

Jack Douglas

@AaronBertrand it isn't a secret that we do it:

+1 - We definitely get good migrations on DBA. Part of our situation is also an active chat room community with a lot of users having migration rights on SO - if we see something that belongs on our site we can collectively bring it over ourselves without having to involve the perpetually overworked SO mods. — JNK Jan 31 at 14:38

Aaron Bertrand

12:42

@ypercube did you flag me yesterday too?

Jack Douglas

If he wants to argue about it there is a place for that argument

ypercube

No, I did not flag you yesterday.

Jack Douglas

and it ain't in here

ypercube

I did take part in the flag party, after you left.

Aaron Bertrand

@JackDouglas Yes I know this. But Richard thinks he can dictate what we can and can't talk about. And for that he gets my big middle finger. Again.

@ypercube I was kidding. :-)

ypercube

12:44

because the same thing happened as the other day. Mods appearing from nothing like an invasion and deleting comments. I don't like that. And OK, a comment maybe misinterpreted, but I don't see why a ban is needed for a simpel word.

Jack Douglas

@ypercube it's a 30 minute ban, it's not the end of the world

of course it isn't perfect

11 hours ago, by Shog9

@JNK even if 10k-users pile on, it still takes 6 of them. I'd prefer a system where stuff wasn't escalated to the mods unless a room lacked enough 10k users to review them in a reasonable timeframe.

I'd prefer if there was a 'flag for site mod' button without any auto-ban.

ypercube

Strange is I wasn't banned, despite my comment deleted.

Jack Douglas

@ypercube no idea why that mod was deleting his own comments though

Aaron Bertrand

Yeah, the problem is it's 10K global, and all of the people who pile on have absolutely no idea what goes on in this room or whether we can actually behave like adults. Adults use bad words sometimes and I think we are quite capable of policing ourselves within this room. There is no shortage of 10K users actively in here and there is almost always a mod present as well. Why we need the community babysitters I have no idea.

@JackDouglas he was being very flippant in his responses, I think he thought he was removing evidence of that.

ypercube

@JackDouglas Yeah, those comments had nothing strange. He didn't answer the question but the deleted comments were something "I saw a flag, I cam here and did some action, now I leave"

Jack Douglas

12:47

@AaronBertrand I know him a little. He is a very new mod on islam.se and I suspect he was a little unsure of himself and didn't quite know what to do.

Aaron Bertrand

@ypercube because a single flag doesn't cause the ban, it's the pile-on effect. Your comment wasn't offensive so didn't get the pile-on. My comment got it because a ton of people don't appreciate the context. I'm sure I would have still gotten a flag or two but I doubt I would have been auto-banned if all the regulars were in this room at the time and only their flags counted.

Jack Douglas

@AaronBertrand that's not quite right

ypercube

@JackDouglas The Islam mod came later, was not in the ones that took action on Aaron's flag.

Jack Douglas

delete=ban

but ypercube's comment was probably deleted without a flag

@ypercube he said he did it

Aaron Bertrand

@JackDouglas no, I thought someone flagged it intentionally as an experiment

ypercube

12:49

@JackDouglas No, it was flagged. By me :)

Jack Douglas

@ypercube it was probably deleted by a mod in the room who saw the flag rather than 'accepting the flag' which would have deleted and auto-banned

Aaron Bertrand

So if I self-flag an offensive message there's no way I'll get banned, but if another single person flags it and a mod deletes it, I get banned? That doesn't sound right either.

ypercube

@JackDouglas OK, maybe I'm mistaken. They were at least 2 first, then 1 or 2 more.

Aaron Bertrand

Well anyway, I don't need to be babysat and I don't think anyone in here does.

ypercube

Well, I saw a difference. I can flag other's comments from the right side (flag as spam/offensive), but I can only flag mine "for moderator", from the left button.

so they may have different effects.

Jack Douglas

12:52

@ypercube you might be right that self-flagging doesn't ban, can't find anything on mSO but that does make sense

like if you post your own credit card number by mistake :)

(and get distracted so you can't delete it)

Aaron Bertrand

Nobody would ever flag their own message because they were offended by it. I've done it several times when I've only wanted a comment to live for a brief time.

(And got distracted and didn't delete it in time.)

ypercube

@JackDouglas can you see if it is a self-flag or not?

Jack Douglas

I don't think so

Aaron Bertrand

Maybe extending the time limit on self-deleting messages might avoid this. If I had time to react, for example, to two or three flags on my message, I could have deleted it and possibly avoided getting banned. Like you said, a half-hour ban is not the end of the world, I just don't like that people unfamiliar with this room get to pile on and make that call.

ypercube

I have to practise on the Sandbox room, how to downvote flags. Mysticial said we can do that, right?

Jack Douglas

12:57

28

A: Add escalation system to chat flags

I'm definitely in favor of this. Always have been, but particularly after today's chatpocalypse on SF. Two caveats/enhancements I'd like to suggest: A high-rep user whose post is flagged should not be able to act on their own flags. (I'd be surprised if this wasn't already part of the system)...

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