The Factory Floor

12:05 AM

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How would a vampiric flower carved out of ice work without melting? Assume that the flower is snow white, carved out of ice. It grows by pulling water out of its surroundings and expanding itself with ice. The petals are covered with tiny, thin, microscopic needles that draw blood from prey, stai...

Worldbuilding Meta

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Q: Clarifying the “What topics can I ask about here?” from the help center

This is pretty much a continuation of JBH’s post but it is narrowed down to a specific issue. It also comes after a suggestion from elemtilas to refocus the question. This is the question that shed light on a problem we have on the site. Despite several edits, it has been closed, reopened, re-...

Green

12:32 PM

Happy timezone!

Ajnatorix Zersolar

1:32 PM

@Green hey

Green

@AjnatorixZersolar hey

Ajnatorix Zersolar

@Green how are you?

Green

@AjnatorixZersolar pretty good. Juggling a few ideas in my head.

Ajnatorix Zersolar

@Green worldbuilding ideas or something else?

Green

@AjnatorixZersolar worldbuilding.

The current favorite is trying to infer the basic family unit from a species with three sexes.

The sexes are A, B and C. B and C can get pregnant. As cannot. A+B=C A+C=B C+B=A*

So under this arrangement, what would be the basic family unit?

Ajnatorix Zersolar

1:37 PM

@Green what is your definition of family unit?

Green

@AjnatorixZersolar Adults + children. The most primitive and self-contained unit that is capable of raising children to adulthood.

Ajnatorix Zersolar

@Green is this for writing or another medium?

Green

@AjnatorixZersolar My own imagination purposes. I rarely write stories.

@Secespitus Hey!

Secespitus

Happy timezone

Green

@Secespitus happy timezone!

@AjnatorixZersolar I assume that the As are roughly male while B and Cs are female.

I guess we would need to describe the physical characteristics of A, B and Cs.

Secespitus

1:41 PM

@Green A question about this is always: do you need a unit, or can every adult try to raise every child as one really big unit?

Ajnatorix Zersolar

@Green can B+C produce offspring?

Bellerophon

@Green Why would it not still be two?

Green

@AjnatorixZersolar yes B+C=A.

@Secespitus Herd raising of offspring?

Secespitus

@Green Yeah

Ajnatorix Zersolar

@Green then i would assume a unit would be 6, an adult and child of each sex

Green

1:44 PM

@Bellerophon like parents are AB or BC or AC. The problem is that you get wild swings in gender ratios if you're not careful.

Ajnatorix Zersolar

@Green you could stop that by making "the norm" as having three kids, one of each, to keep the sexes roughly eaqual

Secespitus

@Green All the more reason to think in terms of "pools" instead of single units that may or may not fight against each other and thereby screwing the numbers to get "their" family a better status.

Green

@AjnatorixZersolar but that requires coordination which always makes me a little itchy. I try not to assume that anyone in this new species is going to be willing to self-sacrifice for the good of the whole.

Humans suck at doing that as are most animals.

Ajnatorix Zersolar

@Green although if there were a shortage of A then by logic there are more B+C making it more available to make A, if that makes sense

Green

14

A: Mating Habits and Social Structures of a Three Gender Species

This is a really interesting species to think about. Since the problem isn't easily done in the mind, I did some agent-based modeling to see what would happen. A more extensive write-up of that question can be found on WorldBuilding's blog on Medium.com. My primary finding was that the ratio o...

Bellerophon

1:49 PM

It should form an equilibrium like a reversible reaction in chemistry. Reduce the concentration on one sex and the other two will end up mating more so its concentration recovers.

Green

@AjnatorixZersolar Which can lead to wild swings in the sex ratios. If you assume that As are human male like, having a huge excess of males around competing for females is going to be a really volatile situation.

Ajnatorix Zersolar

@Green ah i forgot about the psychology.

Green

@Bellerophon I'd love to rerun that simulation with some moderating factors in there. Amplifying factors never last forever. Exponential growth never lasts forever.

Ajnatorix Zersolar

@Green are they all equally drawn to the others? as in does B prefer A over C or does it see A and C as equally attractive?

Green

@Bellerophon Perhaps the stable situation is that the Bs and Cs will eject extra As since they don't carry children to term. You only need a few As to 'service' the needs of the Bs and Cs.

@AjnatorixZersolar I would assume so.

Maybe just a single A for a herd of Bs and Cs.

Ajnatorix Zersolar

1:54 PM

@Green keeping it as just one A could be a challenge, given that there would be lots of the others

Future Historian

Well, that failed horribly.

:(

Green

@AjnatorixZersolar Maybe two or three As with occassional matings with wandering As.

Bellerophon

@Green That can't be a stable system.

Green

@Bellerophon why not?

Bellerophon

@Green You'd end up with large groups of exiled As who would presumably then start fights to get Bs and Cs.

Green

1:57 PM

@Bellerophon If and only if the As are socially inclined and there isn't significant predation to keep the number of wandering As low.

Ajnatorix Zersolar

@Green does the species have a way to determine the gender of an unborn child, and do they have access/accept abortion?

Green

Assuming that Bs and Cs form large herds, there's nothing that a few As could do to get going.

@AjnatorixZersolar They do not. I'm assuming no technology whatever. There may be biological signals as to unborn gender but I haven't fleshed that out yet.

Bellerophon

Doesn't that mean the herd is constantly wasting tons and tons of energy producing offspring?

Ajnatorix Zersolar

@Green I may be wrong, but is there not a theory that female wolves can tell the number and gender of unborn cubs?

Green

@Bellerophon I don't think so. As only appear when Bs mate with Cs. Unless there's a need for new As then the Bs and Cs will mate with the herd A.

@AjnatorixZersolar possibly they can. I'm not saying it's impossible. There's all kinds of chemical signalling that can happen between mother and unborn child.

Bellerophon

2:01 PM

@Green Why? I thought they were equally attracted to As, Bs, and Cs.

Green

@Bellerophon Further, if we assume normal mammalian sexual maturity, then the As would be available for mating in a year or so.

@Bellerophon Attraction != willy nilly mating whenever you feel like it.

Bellerophon

No, but why do they not mate with Bs and Cs? What stops them form mating with each other as often as they mate with the A?

Green

@Bellerophon Because C+B mating generates lots of As which is inefficient. As are basically sperm donors, so you only need one or two. Three at the most should something go wrong.

A+C=B, A+C=B.

Bellerophon

I get that but surely if you have a herd of say 20 Bs, 20 Cs and 1 A the A might be able to impregnate 10 Cs and 10 Bs but the remaining Cs and Bs are likely to mate with each other in order to give a chance of their genes being passed on.

Ajnatorix Zersolar

@Green you could have something like an alpha pair, one B+C couple who decide when an A is needed, and no other B+C couples are allowed to.

Green

2:09 PM

@Bellerophon All the Bs and Cs won't be fertile at the same time. I don't see why the A couldn't impregnate the whole herd. For example, in sheep herds, there's a single male with gigantic testicles to impregnate an entire herd in a few days/weeks.

Maybe there would be a mating season where the Bs and Cs are fertile all at the same time.

Future Historian

2:26 PM

So....question: I have my Xwlnnr, and I am thinking of names for the other four interstellar species.

AndyD273

@FutureHistorian Maybe try something with a couple vowels? Since you're translating them to earth languages, and we generally use vowel sounds.

I have a feeling that if you said that word out loud, you'd put a vowel sound somewhere in there, even though there aren't any visible in the word. But maybe their vocal parts can make that sound without them I guess...

As is, from the present example, just mash your keyboard three times and it'll probably give you something.

Green

@AndyD273 Semitic languages have been written forever without vowels, just the consonants.

@AndyD273 A highly effective technique to be sure.

Future Historian

The first two that are not post-biological are the Pofhyun (pronounced Pophewn) and the Skvbal (pronounced Schkubal). The post-biological ones are the whole brain emulations of the species formerly known as the Yiaknr and an SI created by a species called the Fhanja (pronounced Fhanjya) known simply as Hfannu which translates to "Father" in its creators' language.

AndyD273

@Green I don't know a ton about that, except that they drop out the vowels on purpose: God => G*D, because actually writing the name of God is disrespectful. Or something like that

Future Historian

So, one is a bunch of whole brain emulations and the other is an ASI.

Green

2:33 PM

@AndyD273 JWH (i think it is, if my memory hasn't faded too much.)

Future Historian

Take your pick if you had to go with humans being a post-biological species in real life.

AndyD273

@Green Right.

Green

@AndyD273 Got it wrong. It's 'YHWH'

Secespitus

@AndyD273 Just smash your head on the left side of the keyboard and roll around to the right. That makes for a more even distribution.

AndyD273

I don't know if they drop vowels for words that aren't one of the names of God.

Future Historian

2:34 PM

So, are those names good?

AndyD273

@FutureHistorian Yeah, sounds good to me

Green

@AndyD273 Vowels in hebrew are marked out by little marking added to the consonants. There are no vowel letters as we use them.

Future Historian

You have the Xwlnnr, the Pofphyun, the Skvbal, the Yiaknr and Hfannu (the ASI) as the interstellar civilizations of the Galaxy, even though Hfannu is just a single entity.

Green

עִזרוּ לִי! Like that<------

Future Historian

Wait. Can an ASI even HAVE multiple Matrioshka Brains as a single entity in an STL universe?

AndyD273

2:37 PM

@Green When transliterated to english

Though I don't know if they do that much

Green

@AndyD273 well, yeah. When transliterated, we add in the vowels. Hebrew itself doesn't have letters for vowels, just the little markings on the consonants.

Future Historian

Or would each of Hfannu's Matrioshka Brains just be an individual personality?

AndyD273

@FutureHistorian Yo could go either way with that I think

Future Historian

@AndyD273? In real life, an ASI could not be spanning multiple systems as Matrioshka Brains, could it?

Because with no FTL travel or communications, how does Hfannu have the processing power of multiple stars as a single entity?

And besides, would the ASI's processing power not get slower the further away its Matrioshka Brains are built?

For example: if I am an ASI and part of me is in another star system, how would I even function as a multi-star spanning ASI entity?

AndyD273

@FutureHistorian Depends. They could sync memories, so as long as they get periodic updates then the mind doesn't get too fragmented. But it does seem more likely that each star system would be a separate individual.

Future Historian

2:42 PM

Well, then. Hfannu is going to be the father entity on the home system and the other ASI entities could be the Khfani (children in Hfannu's creators' language).

AndyD273

@Green Ok, but the little markings are essentially vowels. They tell you how the word should be pronounced, even if they aren't distinct full size characters. But once again, I don't really know a ton about hebrew. I'm not great with languages that aren't computer languages.

Future Historian

And considering their capabilities, they could detect each other from halfway across the Galaxy, but interaction would be next to non-existent.

Green

@AndyD273 The vowels are called diacritics. In the Old Testament, there were no vowel diacritics. A reader back then would just know the right sounds from context.

Future Historian

Even the Visitors (Xwlnnr) should be able to detect the other four civilisations as a 22,403 year old interstellar species, even though they are one of the relatively newer civilisations in the Galaxy.

AndyD273

@FutureHistorian Charles Stross has an interesting series that has some ideas about this subject. The books are Saturn's Children and Neptune's Brood. You may get some ideas about digital entities in a STL universe.

Future Historian

2:46 PM

By the way, since I have another revision in the works, I wonder how unfortunate humans were to emerge near the Xwlnnr.

AndyD273

Do the Xwlnnr think humans taste good?

Future Historian

As in: if we lose (the likely scenario, even if we do defeat them in the 2020s), then we were unlucky enough to be next to the Xwlnnr and in the unlikely event we somehow beat back the Xwlnnr after x amount of times, then we still have a problem.

AndyD273

sounds like pretty unlucky then. Guess you answered your own question

Future Historian

I know. But how unfortunate are we is the question.

As in: how much worse can it get with humanity being unfortunate enough to be near an extraterrestrial species that just conquered it?

Oh well. At least we put one bloody good fight. Right?

;)

Green

3:14 PM

I'm torn. This question feels like it falls under the "no questions about the actions of a single person" but it's a subject I love.

2

Q: Could "eternal" dictator be clueless in foreign policy theory?

I'm writing a story about foreign policy student who needs to do an internship in his final year. And while his peers apply at think-tanks and government agencies, he has low grades and no connections. Destiny interferes and he manages to get an internship in a government of fictional MENA dictat...

reality-check geopolitics

Is it off-topic?

Bellerophon

3:27 PM

@Green I think it is off-topic.

Green

@Bellerophon As I feared. I left them a note. Hopefully they edit it to make it on-topic.

AndyD273

@Green It's a bit boarderline. As in, "could this one dictator do it?" vs "how do dictators as a group do it?" Your comment will hopefully help steer them in the right direction.

Green

@AndyD273 I have an answer to put to that question but I don't want to encourage low quality questions by an answer from a high rep user.

AndyD273

@Green They are at 19 points right now. I put a comment suggesting they come visit us in chat once they get to 20. On a side note, which is more important: "Asking questions, giving answers." like the site motto says, or "weeding out low quality questions"?

Future Historian

3:51 PM

Hmmmmm. I have an idea. Since the whole thing starts around.....40,000 BCE at the earliest, which of the 5 interstellar civilisations I have mentioned is likely the oldest? Depending on the answer, that may give me a story idea for AFTER humanity is either subjugated or exterminated.

Secespitus

@AndyD273 SevenSidedDie has a well-phrased (comment-)answer to that question. (It's taken a bit out of context, but I think it's still important to this discussion.)

Future Historian

Either that or I can just have aestivation hypothesis be involved by introducing a sixth civilisation to the Milky Way that had existed at some point in the past and was likely destroyed by some Berserker probes that are now in hibernation, just waiting to wake up again.

Secespitus

>Ah, I see where the misunderstanding is. You’ve assumed this is a help site, when it’s a Q&A site. The distinction may not be obvious, so let’s look at the purpose of each. A help site has the purpose you stated (“to help people around the world find answers to their questions.”).

>This Q&A site doesn’t have that purpose; its purpose is to create a curated database of easily-searched knowledge. Questions exist only to prompt knowledge-submissions and be searchable. Each Q&A is intended to serve later readers; helping the asker is only incidental. Weird, eh? But that’s the goal.

Future Historian

So......the Xwlnnr conquer Earth, either subjugating the humans, who now have to fight a long and arduous guerrilla war, or exterminating the humans.....and depending on the outcome.....I am thinking we or the Xwlnnr accidentally awaken something that should have stayed asleep.

And then both sides are like: “Oh oh....”

And then we have Berserker probes running amok, destroying everything.

Oh no!!!!

But I am not actually doing that.

AndyD273

@Secespitus Sure. I don't see a conflict in this? This is a question. Green has an answer. Should Green post his answer? Should Green withhold his answer? If the question is just a prompt for Greens knowledge submission, then the actual question doesn't matter a lot, as long as it is searchable and answerable.

Future Historian

4:01 PM

At least for the moment.

Andy? Introduce self-replicating SI probes that destroy all intelligent life in the Galaxy or not?

Earth is already conquered at this point anyway.....

What to do with the humans is once again TBD.

AndyD273

@FutureHistorian That's basically the grey goo scenario; probes replicate until eventually the universe is just made of probes, or the heat death occures. It's up to you

Future Historian

Actually.....

I was thinking more of an aestivation hypothesis thing.

Probes destroy their creators, probes hibernate for a few million years, humans or Xwlnnr accidentally wake them up during the occupation of Earth and then they are like: “Oh [censored].”

Cue death and destruction ensuing across the Galaxy.

Anyway, Andy. Is that a good idea?

AndyD273

@FutureHistorian Seems like it would make for a good plot

Future Historian

So, that would be after Earth gets conquered and decades into the occupation of Earth.

AndyD273

Might even be a way for humans and xwlnnr to bury the hatchet and work together

Future Historian

4:10 PM

Now....it is only a matter of who would activate it first....

Speaking of the probes....where should the one activated on the Solar System be located? Earth or some other chunk of the Solar System?

Because if it is on Earth, why have we not spotted it b-? Oh.

There has to be a way to conceal an artificial structure that we have yet to find somewhere.

Green? Andy and/or Bellephoron? Do you three have any ideas as to where a self-replicating space probe that has been hibernating for millions of years could be located in OUR OWN SOLAR SYSTEM?

If that was a thing?

Feeds

4:35 PM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

So, I originally asked this question: Effect of magic/magic users on modern (US) military Which was first put on hold, and then closed for being to broad. But before that happened I got a lot of feedback informing me that my magic system was way overpowered. So now I'm going to outline my magic...

AndyD273

@FutureHistorian One of the comets sounds believable. Trapped in the ice, it finally starts it's long fall toward the sun. As it gets close it has to deal with the stress of melting. And then someone starts mining it. It breaks apart, and the probe is free at long last.

Or it is mined on the way in, abandoned when it starts getting close to the sun, breaks apart at it's perigee, the probe gets free, and proceeds to eat mercury and turn it into a cloud of probes before spreading out.

Runner up is one of the big gas giant moons. Maybe Europa or Titan. Same deal. Someone is doing some mining, comes across it, manages to wake it up.

I kinda like the one where it eats mercury though. It would be a lot like a virus infecting a cell. lands on the planet on the night side, burrows deep inside, starts eating the iron core and making copies of itself, which in turn make more copies of themselves, until the planet is essentially a hollow shell full of probes. It splits open, spreading out billions of probes which head toward Venus. At this rate Venus will only last a month, and after that Earth will be consumed in a week or two...

Green

4:59 PM

@AndyD273 I hope they do.

Secespitus

5:10 PM

@AndyD273 Will someone search on this site for an answer to this question? Does it completely answer the question? Can we say whether his answer is better or someone elses?

AndyD273

5:21 PM

Will someone search on this site for an answer to this question? It's possible. One person had the question. That means there may be others. Does it completely answer the question? That's subjective. Because: Can we say whether his answer is better or someone elses? Everyone's world is different. If I was writing a story set in this world with this premise, it would be totally different than the story you wrote in the same world with the same premise.

So one answer might work for me, and not work for you. That being said, all of the answers are pretty close to each other for this one with variations in perspective, so I'd say that it's probably pretty close to being correct

This is different than SO where a questions might be "how do I print out hello world" and there is one best answer, and you know it's right because it works.

@Secespitus Also, that quote you found doesn't say that someone has to have searched for something. Questions exist only to prompt knowledge-submissions and be searchable. Is it a prompt for a knowledge submission? Yes. Is it searchable? Yes. Problem solved.

Future Historian

Back.....

So, a comet or some random non-Earth-based location?

That makes sense.

Green

5:39 PM

@AndyD273 I offered what I could Brandon's question about how to start worldbuilding.

AndyD273

@FutureHistorian If you really want it earth based, it could be some lost temple deep in the jungle. The probe crashed and was damaged. Primitive people found it and decided to worship it as a giant phallic fertility god. Over time the probe repaired itself, but in doing so it depleted the batteries, and since it was deep in this temple it couldn't recharge them. Then the temple is found, and the probe is brought out into the light...

Future Historian

Well, actually....

I think I am fine with some other Solar System-based location.

Future Historian

6:06 PM

So, an Xwlnnr mining operation finds the probe, probe wakes up and [censored] goes down, right?

AndyD273

Sure, works for me.

Future Historian

Hmmmm. What about a moon of Uranus?

After all: humans have only sent Voyager 1 and 2 to both Uranus and Neptune.

So, perhaps we can hide the probe there?

AndyD273

I'm not as familiar with those moons as I am with the big ones around Jupiter and Saturn, but I don't see why not.

Future Historian

Exactly.

You see my point?

;)

Future Historian

6:50 PM

Hmmmmm. Come to think of it, Voyager 2 was the only object we sent towards Uranus.

So......I have an idea. What if we found some kind of probe (the Xwlnnr that is) hidden beneath the surface of Miranda?

AndyD273

@FutureHistorian So Voyager 2 found it, and we're just sitting on the info for 30 years?

Oh, they find it. Sure, sounds like a plan

Secret

[Random]

Charlatan is a characteristic of subliminals such that they are embedded in what we known as unreality

(The above is perfectly grammatical gibberish)

Bellerophon

@Secret Should it not be charlatan?

Secret

bleh, can't spell

AndyD273

Not perfectly grammatical...
Chalartans *are* a characteristic of subliminals, such that they are embedded in what we known as unreality.

Secret

7:00 PM

FAIL

AndyD273

heh

Worldbuilding Meta

8:32 PM

2

Q: Can we change the privilege page for "comment everywhere" to explicitly mention magic links?

Magic links for comments are great They allow you to very easily write helpful comments, as they allow you to link to each sites most important resources with very short links where you don't need to do a search for individual Hyperlinks before posting a single standard comment. But many peopl...

discussion comments privileges

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