The Factory Floor - 2018-10-22

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12:10 AM

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Free XKCD about psychology and chin-ups for your convenience.

In fleshbag space XKCD remained a religion among many religions. But for those who traveled the great cave of Stack Exchange and lived their lives in Worldbuilding's chat and harvested its reputation, it was the only religion.

Image source: xkcd.com/954

2 hours later…

Worldbuilding Meta

1:56 AM

0

Q: Should we be blacklisted from HNQ?

I just spotted our current hnq question, and did a double-take before realizing what stack it was from. This happens more often here. Considering the recent mess with IPS, should we consider blacklisting, too?

2:35 AM

@CortAmmon Agreed. That's an excellent topic. The first example that comes to mind is the deployment of new warfare tactics or new weapons. They're effective for a while till the enemy finds the limitations of the weapon or tactic then adapt to avoid the worst of the effects.

I saw a graph once about the deaths from IEDs in Iraq/Afghanistan/Pakistan. Initially, they were really high since no one knew how to deal with them then leveled off as US troops learned how to counter that generation. A new spike in deaths would kick off when the insurgents figured out a new type of IED or new tactic. Eventually, all these fluctations reached a kind of global max for IED deaths based on many various factors.

3:17 AM

Wait, that was deaths per unit time, not deaths total.

1 hour later…

4:18 AM

@Green Along those lines, I work with people who were in Afganistan. One of the stories I hear is the tremendous value of interacting with the locals on a regular basis. Take smoke breaks with them. Whatever it takes. Become a human being to them, rather than a faceless soldier. A tremendous amount of valuable intel about IEDs was gathered simply by being human with the locals.

2

8 hours later…

12:22 PM

@CortAmmon that transition from faceless, personless Other to being a person is so valuable. I find that job interviews go so much better when I'm interviewing with people instead of interviewers. I try to get them to laugh or bring up some common element that we are sure to have in common. Even if I don't get the job, the interview is at least pleasent.

@CortAmmon I absolutely believe what you say.

Civilization seems to be this ever undulating gyre between stability, new side effects, destructive side effects, compensation for side effects, mitigation of side effects, new stability.

Climate change is one of those side effects.

Supposing we survive climate change and asteroid mining starts then there will be side effects from that which humanity will have to mitigate. Same thing if cheap fusion comes online. Humanity will have to deal with the excess heat from all that electricity flowing around.

1:05 PM

Pfooey. Kingledion hasn't been in chat recently enough for a ping.

1:19 PM

@Green Kind of a meaningless number though if you don't specify what the original threshold was... People have been around for a while, so should be we worried about toddlers destroying the earth?

1:53 PM

@AndyD273 Agreed. Though it's possible that only recently has the required IQ for world destruction dropped to a value attainable by human beings. Also, define "world". Genghis Khan did a pretty good job of destroying the world in his day according to his definition of world.

Anyone else been getting hate ads about Republican incumbents only? I've not had a positive political ad or a hate one against Democrats yet. (OTOH, maybe it's the Republicans running them to get names out.)

Yup. Don't know if you've read the book After On, but they make a bit of a case for this too, with the idea of desktop gene printers being a real thing, and the gene sequences for horrible diseases available, it would be fairly easy for a grad student to design and print a custom civilization ender.

@AndyD273 I have an idea. When the space ship shows up, they have to use the shadow to open the door.

@Hosch250 I'm so glad that I don't watch much TV. But considering the calls for incivility by prominate DNC leaders, I'm not really surprised to hear about it

@AndyD273 This is Spotify. I don't have a TV either :)

Then, we could even add a scene where people who (try to) force their way in instead of using the shadow to open the door get dramatically extinguished.

2:01 PM

@AndyD273 I know how I'd do that civilization ender.

Maybe an explosion of flames, or being squished by the door slamming on them, or being launched high into the sky and left to splat.

@Hosch250 I only listen to one radio station, and they don't play ads. Otherwise it's google music, which also doesn't play ads

@Hosch250 what is the 'shadow' you refer to?

Hmm, I'll have to look into GMusic.

@Green You invented the idea

2:02 PM

@Green Story-go-round.

LOL.

I have paid Spotify which doesn't have ads.

@Green I refuse to pay :)

@Hosch250 Oh. Gotcha. I haven't read that in months.

PS. I know how to shut the ads up.

Temporarily--until the next round.

Then you have to do it again.

@AndyD273 I have an answer for how to make a crazy destructive disease.

let me find it.

2:03 PM

@Green Reinstate smallpox and typhoid?

@Hosch250 Nah, way worse than those.

With a little measles in there too.

@Green Oh, you mean like ebola.

@Hosch250 google music is subscription service too. I use it because it also blocks ads on youtube

@Hosch250 worse.

@AndyD273 So does adblock. I've not had an ad on YouTube as long as I can remember.

@Green Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever.

2:05 PM

17

A: Can I create an unstoppable disease?

Basic Mechanism for Incurability: Biofilms A significant problem in hospitals is how to combat bacteria the form biofilms. These biofilms provide effective protection against a great many decontamination techniques both inside and outside the body. Let's build a disease around that mechanism. ...

Admittedly, that's a three year old answer and I'd design it a bit differently now but the result is the same.

Airborne spread, long incubation times but still contagious without symptoms, gram negative to make antibiotics far less effective and merge in some genes from mold to oxidize the living bee-jeebees out of anything carbon based.

2:21 PM

@Hosch250 I don't mind paying a little to help support the creators, and it works across all platforms, and I get the unlimited music on all my devices including the google home, and it works for the kids too...

@Green Sounds like a solid plan

Yeah. I don't mind paying a little either, but not at the moment. And, in a way, I am paying by (not) listening to ads.

If you're ever looking for something to read, you'd probably enjoy that one. It involves a lot of potential scenarios for ending the world, emergent AI, etc

amazon.com/Random-House-Audio-After-Silicon/dp/B071XTVBGZ

@Green BTW, I think you just re-invented Tuberculosis.

Apparently that's actually having a bit of an outbreak out west again.

@Hosch250 Didn't know that TB did biofilms.

I don't know if it does biofilms, but the rest of it.

Highly contagious, takes a long time to show up.

Eventual killer.

2:26 PM

Ah, that's nice confirmation that assertions were correct.

I designed TB++

@Hosch250 except that's bacterial, not viral. Also, TB is closely related to leprosy IIRC

@AndyD273 Really?

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK6820

@Green Yeah, same family or something along those lines. Some of the treatments for TB are also effective against leprosy.

@AndyD273 Hosch's NIH paper was very interesting on that subject.

2:49 PM

Hey! There are forms of mycobacteria that can form pigmentation. Perhaps I'll design a strain that turns people purple when they have the infection.

@Green If you can turn them into zombies, they'd have a job on the Vikings football team for sure.

Purple People Eaters, and all.

@Hosch250 Did the Vikings stink it up this weekend?

They won.

I don't follow them, but I know because the rest of my family does.

@Hosch250 Ah. I wondered if they had lost given the association between zombies and football players.

No.

The Purple People Eaters was a name for a group of really good players in my parents day.

The zombies come in with the "people eaters" part.

2:59 PM

@Hosch250 I have a vague memory about the Vikings being a really good team a long time ago. Nice to know the memory has some basis in reality.

Those fake memories will getcha every time.

How do we justify the terrible ideas we come up with here? How are we still good people? (Well, maybe you guys are but I'm not).

I'm spending a portion of my morning designing how to turn disease victims various shades of purple polka dots

And it's funny!

Oh, I'm not a good person.

@Hosch250 I keep telling people that I'm a horrible person but everyone keeps not believing me.

I wouldn't exactly say I was a bad one, but I'm not a good one.

@Green Somewhere out there is a less good person who might be having a similar bad idea but not telling anyone, and wanting to make it happen. If we can think of and broadcast the idea, then people who can do something about it will be aware of the potential threat, and can do something about it.

@AndyD273 I guess that's at least a partial mitigation.

3:10 PM

Worldbuilding.se. We prevent terrorist attacks. :P

It's a bit like a vaccine. We're the mostly harmless version of the idea used to prep the defences of the host against the more harmful version.

3:24 PM

@Green So see, we're helping civilization by plotting its demise.

@James about your government/party plan, what are your thoughts regarding personal freedom?

4:05 PM

@AndyD273 I tend toward it but I think there needs to be balance. It actually goes back to @Green 's argument about power, government should be a check on unchecked accumulation of power.

It gets sticky when you start to get into questions of personal freedom vs personal freedom.

Where does the balance lie in your opinion?

@AndyD273 I'd probably need an example, discussing this stuff abstractly doesn't really work well imo

@James And, above all, the government needs to be checked against unchecked accumulation of power.

4:24 PM

@Hosch250 agreed

4:47 PM

Yeah, I'm not sure... On one extreme side you have anarchy with the government having no power, which is not good, and on the other extreme side you have totalitarianism with the government having all the power, which is worse in my opinion. I feel that where america has traditionally been is a good balance, with the people having more power than the government, but still answerable under rule of law.

I am much less thrilled by the ideas of the DSA and them wanting the government to have control over families and other highly personal matters.

@AndyD273 Did I see something about a government agency suggesting documenting which genitals children were born with this weekend or was I hallucinating? Its hard to tell anymore

5:02 PM

@James Perhaps not hallucinations but certainly plausible given the preoccupation that some parts of the US have with who uses which bathroom and proving who should use which bathroom. Never mind that external genitalia aren't a 100% indicator of gender.

Maybe they should just assign initial gender based on chromosomes instead of genitalia.

Piss both sides off.

Because birth genitals (or lack thereof) don't always tell right.

I can just see rants about "my child is a girl, but the stupid doctor says boy.

@Green I'm not against just labeling bathrooms as innie or outie.

@Hosch250 I don't see why it should be up to the government or the parents. Let the kid figure it out when they come of age.

@AndyD273 and the inevitable awkward moments when males with innie belly buttons walk into restrooms populated by females who though 'innie' meant their genitalia.

@Green You'd probably only make that mistake once.

@AndyD273 True.

@James My parents had this thing called 'Legitimate Authority' and it was how they and I kept the peace before I moved away from home permanently. They owned the house and the car I drove so if they said that something needed to be done a specific way, it was their right to specify such a thing.

Conversely, I owned my own body and could make decisions about where I lived and what I did. It worked out pretty well.

5:12 PM

@Green I think your parents read St. Augustine

It seems like a general agreement on the roles of citizens, government and companies would be super helpful in a discussion about the concentration of power.

@James Wouldn't put it past them but that's not their usual style.

@Green Not sure you'd ever get to a consensus

@James Perhaps you might among a small set of nation founders but groups like that only come rarely.

Certainly, in the US, you'd never get any consensus....which is why everyone is at everyone else's throats all the time.

But, in a fictional situation where we have a smallish nation (<10 m) who want a fresh break from the garbage of the past and a small set of nation founders, I think you could come up with some really interesting, equitable laws.

The US is based on the idea that concentration of power in a single person, the king, is a bad thing.

Government: Take care of basic infrastructure, defense, and set some ground rules.
Corporations: Hire employees and pay attention to their needs, pay taxes, follow the rules.
Citizens: Take care of your families and pay attention to their needs, pay taxes, follow the rules.

I think a modern take on that would that concentration of power in any small group of people is a bad thing.

5:18 PM

@AndyD273 The devil is in the details.

@AndyD273 The problem is that above some magic threshold of power concentration for corporations and government, the rules no longer apply. Common citizens always have to follow the rules or be ejected from society by economic isolation or physical prison.

@Green Which is why the citizens should have most of the power.

@AndyD273 Because I guarantee you that there are and will always be those in corps and government who wish to extend their power as far as possible, despite what the rules may say.

@AndyD273 I agree but how do they keep that power of the generations and centuries? Not saying it can't be done I just don't know how to setup a stable system where that's possible.

And we may be talking about a n-body problem here where there is no stable solutions possible.

Of course. Which is why I like the term limit point. Not much point accumulating power if you not be in office that long.

@AndyD273 I like the term limit point because it prevents calcification in government. If you reelect the same person (and his buddies) 20 times, you get the same government. Term limits force adaptation and change.

5:23 PM

@AndyD273 Ask Putin how well term limits restricted him. ;)

@James He just kept getting promotions.

@James Any politician that asks to be elected for life should be instantly shot in the head.

@AndyD273 Liz over in England.

And Charlie and Billy after her :P

@AndyD273 The irony of all this is that in the end it comes down to us. You could set up the greatest system in the world and if the people don't require it be honored, unchanged and whatnot...it doesn't matter.

@AndyD273 Agreed, you have to be certifiable to want to do that for life.

@Hosch250 Xi in China...

5:28 PM

@James Perhaps a means to lower the cost of rebellion needs to be found.

@Green Bolivia has a leader that is trying to go full socialist dictator for life. There are people who are resisting, trying to use non-violence. It's kinda interesting:

Bolivia Resists China’s Subversion

@AndyD273 Man, what is it about Central and South American countries that they love dictators so much. Geez.

I think they call part of the strategy "laughtivism", using humor to drive social pressure or something like that

@AndyD273 If you can do it right, it's crazy effective.

@Green You'd think that watching their neighbors descend into chaos and starvation they'd learn. But in this case their leader is probably looking at Maduro, and thinking "I could do that..."

Worldbuilding Meta

5:40 PM

-1

Q: A Promotion for the Community Promotion Ads

I have a pending community promotion ad that I believe deserves more attention — but I also think that we need more participation generally in the cause of creating community promotion ads. As we approach the end of 2018, I'd like to draw everyone's attention to the ads and invite everyone to co...

discussion advertising

@AndyD273 Or the perpetual rationalization "It'll be different this time because we're better than them."

2 hours later…

7:50 PM

Hey @AndyD273 @James check out this bacteria that just won't die. Not as bad as prions but close.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583497

What if we sanitized our water with radioactive waste from nuclear power plants. :thinking:

Bonus points for "sanitizing" our insides as we drink it...

8:06 PM

I haven't looked for alpha radiation sterilization of water. That seems really expensive though.

I haven't looked for articles about alpha radiation sterilization of water. Maybe you'd want gamma radiation since alpha and beta don't make it very far?

8:21 PM

@Hosch250 Anything with a half-life long enough to be used for that, but short enough that it'll be safe by the time it gets to us?

That might work.

Alternately, gamma rays go through everything except salt water, basically.

Don't expose the water directly to the gamma source, only the gamma radiation. Let the water pass by the gamma source at the appropriate rate.

Just filter the water, then sanitize it?

8:35 PM

@AndyD273 Being a politician who wants to be elected for life, I realize that your new law doesn't define what part of the head to get shot in. So, I change the law that it's a bb shot with the gun placed inside my mouth and shot through my cheek.

Then I get elected for life.

8:46 PM

Hey guys, I'm about to reference all my time spent on WB as a reason to hire me (in a cover letter).

LOL.

Are you applying for the CIA or some special-ops?

Should be entertaining. No, I'm applying to be a Big Data consultant when I have no big data experience. Since BD skill is only part of the game, I figure that a cover letter explaining the other required skills might do me some good.

WT*. Something just screwed my solution.

Good luck!

Eh, good luck to you :)

I think I solved it.

9:16 PM

@Green Good luck.

Mithrandir24601

@Green Nice! Hope it goes well

@Mithrandir24601 we'll know it did if I get an interview.

@Bellerophon thanks!

9:31 PM

@Hosch250 what was it?

Type in the wrong project.

So, we used to put all our types in project A and B (before my time).

Then we started putting them in C and D.

Now we put them in E and F.

It's getting better--but it's still horrible because we are splitting by structure instead of functionality.

So, I'm quietly working to encourage them to massively switch structures.

But, we've got types split across 6 projects, and sometimes it takes a bit of reorganization to get things working.

Damn.

Why divide by structure in the first place?

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Oct '1822

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