The Factory Floor

1:39 AM

@HDE226868 My Guess is it is 2 the word system makes it false

4:55 AM

@FutureHistorian Read your question about governments acting in 1975. Given sufficient evidence of impending hostile alien incursions, the world's govts will pool their scientific, political, military & intelligence institutions to deal with the ET problem. UNERU's main role might be in coordinating a global response. Once the real nature of the threat is apparent there will be a much stronger response further down, inside and between those institutions.

@FutureHistorian You suggested reverse engineering alien technology. This is improbable. Consider reverse engineering a 2015 level technology cell phone in 1975. They understand the technology in the phone, but wouldn't know how to make it. Alien technology will be almost infinitely worse. Possibly, based on currently unknown scientific principles. If alien tech is self-repairing, self-maintaining, & effectively self-reproducing.

So capture a piece of alien tech, cut it in half, give it the right feedstock (material, possibly, in powder form) & it will rebuild itself. Repeat, & repeat again. Now you have the beginnings of a production line to make more of that alien tech.

@FutureHistorian Restarting project Orion would be easy. Freeman Dyson, George Taylor, & Stanislaw Ulam were still alive in 1975. Assume the aliens have non-nuclear explosive devices as powerful as the equivalent nuclear bombs. Allow humans reproduce their own. Dyson et al will consulted about a response to the alien invasion. With access to a non-nuclear charges, Orion spacecraft will be practical without the radioactivity problems. Now you're ready to launch.

JDługosz

6:52 AM

Fluorine seems to be quite the fashon for questions these days.

Geology of Pluto

The geology of Pluto consists of the characteristics of the surface, crust, and interior of Pluto. Because of Pluto's distance from Earth, in-depth study from Earth is difficult. Because of this, many details about Pluto remained unknown until 14 July 2015, when New Horizons flew through the Pluto system and began transmitting data back to Earth. When it did, Pluto was found to have remarkable geologic diversity, with New Horizons team member Jeff Moore saying that it "is every bit as complex as that of Mars” The final New Horizons Pluto data transmission was received on October 25, 2016. ��2...

«Two possible cryovolcanoes, provisionally named Wright Mons and Piccard Mons, have been identified in topographic maps…»

JDługosz

8:55 AM

Interesting: WB.SE has picked up some html errors, including *div inside span?!

validator.w3.org/nu/…

Future Historian

11:23 AM

So, basically, I do not need to prevent Project: Orion's cancellation?

:D

Feeds

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

Multiverse/Alternate Timelines Time Travel - would probabilistic events simply reset and happen at random I think the multiverse/alternate timeline interpretation of time travel gives an interesting resolution to the Grandfather Paradox - if you went back in time and killed your grandfather, thi...

a4android

12:34 PM

@FutureHistorian No. Cancellation won't stop it. The ideas are there. The guys who proposed them are still alive in the 1970s. If you need spaceships, especially big spaceships, to fight an alien invasion they're the only realistic option. But you do need to substitute something better than nuclear propulsion charges. Fallout makes them extremely impractical. Even if you defeat the aliens, a radioactive Earth isn't a healthy Earth. That's why I proposed a fudge to get around that problem.

Future Historian

12:50 PM

Actually, @a4android, I think I have a better idea.

Instead of using non-nuclear explosives, is there a chance we can use Saturn V-sized rocket boosters?

To lift it into the upper atmosphere, where it will then proceed to LEO?

That way, we need less nuclear explosives, and we can worry less about radiation on Earth.

In fact, the only radiation we need to worry about is that in LEO.

@sphennings?

I have an idea.

Or nevermind.

@sphennings?

Question: can I add another question for the site in the Sandbox?

Or do I need to dispose of my previous one?

Secespitus

@FutureHistorian Currently there is no limit on the amount of questions you can post in the Sandbox, but some people are in favor of limiting it. But most likely it will be something like "Please don't post more than three at the same time"

See the comments under Monicas proposal in the Sandbox Cleanup.

Future Historian

Oh.

Alright.

So, I am not going to risk posting anymore questions on the Sandbox.

But I am curious: how would you go about in getting an Orion Battleship into orbit to stop an invasion of Earth? Saturn V-sized boosters to send that thing into LEO or non-nuclear explosives derived from extraterrestrial technology?

Secespitus

@FutureHistorian Like I said, there is no problem with posting more than one question. Just don't flood the Sandbox with a dozen posts in a matter of minutes and try to finish some of the older ones at some point

Future Historian

Oh.

Alright.

But still, I do not want to risk getting attacked for that.

So.............

sphennings

Please try to finish the questions you post there.

People are putting effort into helping you improve your questions, they don't want to waste their effort.

Future Historian

1:04 PM

Alright, fair enough.

:P

So, @sphennings?

Any conventional rocket concepts or boosters that could launch this thing into orbit: projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/…?

sphennings

Depends on how hard science you want to be. I'm all for ignoring as much science as possible without challenging suspension of disbelief. So sure why not.

Future Historian

I do want it to be (mostly) realistic on the science side of things.

So.........

Do you or the others know any ideas as to some possible concepts for chemical rockets or boosters we could use to lift an Orion Battleship into a suborbital trajectory?

sphennings

I don't know what gave you the idea that I'm an expert on spaceships.

Future Historian

I never implied that.

I am just asking if you happen to have any ideas or (to add in to my earlier question) know someone who does.

sphennings

I'd create a question on the sandbox, get some feedback on it, and then post it to the main site.

HDE 226868

1:22 PM

@EnigmaMaitreya As far as I know, all four statements are true, which I did not intend.

@JDługosz Yeah, I'd seen that.

JDługosz

@HDE226868 which was unintended?

HDE 226868

@JDługosz The one about cryovolcanoes.

Serban Tanasa

Hello Channel

Secespitus

Happy diurnal isomorphism!

HDE 226868

@Secespitus Huh, that's a meme.

Secespitus

1:32 PM

@HDE226868 I know

Someone (probably Redacted) didn't like people saying "good morning" when it wasn't morning anymore in his timezone

sphennings

I mean being mindful of timezones is important. I just had a PM invite me to a 4:00 am local time meeting.

JDługosz

@HDE226868 You need to be careful stating what is not on a body that is still being explored.

@sphennings I use Polyclock on my phone and tablet, set up with lines for coworkers and family. For Windows (years ago) I found an extension that lets you put more than one clock in the tray; Win7 lets you have 4 times built-in.

You'd be amazed at how many people try to specify a time zone (better than not!) but get it wrong.

HDE 226868

@JDługosz I think I should have been a bit more careful fact-checking there, period.

JDługosz

Like, 6PM PST — guys, why not use the time that's currently in force (PDT) for you? Is that a mistake? Did you really mean you're using non-daylight-savings-time or did you use the wrong name?

DaaaahWhoosh

I always try to avoid ST/DT because I never know which one it is

I just say Eastern/Pacitic/etc

kingledion

1:46 PM

Bahumbug to all the globalization

People in different time zones sound like foreigners, and we probably shouldn't talk to them

Wait what time zone are you in @DaaaahWhoosh

Future Historian

So, doing the math, it may be doable.

I think.........

DaaaahWhoosh

@kingledion Eastern

or, US Eastern? Is 'Eastern' confusing to non-Americans?

Future Historian

Just wonder if 6 Saturn V-sized boosters are enough to send the 3,629 tonne Battleship Orion into a suborbital trajectory.

kingledion

I am also in eastern, therefore your RTTG (Reference Time To Giraffe) is 0, which is the correct time zone, of course

So not confusing at all, since the entire world revolves around the East Coast of the US

Future Historian

From what I gathered, the Saturn V could have a 2.041 km/s Delta-V capability (enough to send the Orion into suborbital flight). From there, the Orion nuclear pulse propulsion system will do its thing, and well, time to kick some ET arse.

kingledion

1:50 PM

@FutureHistorian If you fire a nuclear pulse propulsion system within the Earth's magnetosphere you will cause nuclear winter, so don't do that

Not to mention an astounding HALO EMP

But you will make some pretty auroras

For people to look at in the dark

Future Historian

Just curious. If one of those things faced a small force of 10 transports/supply craft and 9 armed military spacecraft (5 being corvette/frigate sized, 2 destroyer-sized, one cruiser-sized and one battleship-sized), could it survive?

So, @kingledion? How do you suggest I get an Orion spacecraft into orbit during the mid-1970s - early 1980s timeframe if Earth is under attack by ETs?

If that is the case?

sphennings

@FutureHistorian There are no standard definitions of any of the nouns in that sentence.

2

Future Historian

Are you joking?

DaaaahWhoosh

the military doesn't have any spacecraft yet

kingledion

@FutureHistorian Build it in space. You can't use nuclear propulsion in the Earth's magnetosphere if you still want Earth to be habitable.

The fission byproducts are not contained at all, you are just coating the planet with long lived cesium and iodine radio-isotopes

Secespitus

1:55 PM

@DaaaahWhoosh As someone from Germany it might confuse me, if I wouldn't know you guys were from the US

Future Historian

@kingledion? You do realise that it may not matter, since Earth is under attack. So..............

kingledion

Everyone is going to get thyroid cancer

Future Historian

@kingledion? How do you suggest we launch that thing without letting it get destroyed by the ETs?

While being assembled in LEO?

kingledion

@FutureHistorian I don't have any great suggestions, I'm just saying irradiating the Earth to save it from aliens isn't a clear win

Future Historian

Also, @kingledion. You do realise these are 5 to 10 kt nuclear devices, correct?

And they are going to be detonated in the upper atmosphere anyway.

So.............

projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/…

Anyway, you might want to read that section of the Atomic Rockets website on engine options.

kingledion

1:59 PM

Well, they are wrong

Future Historian

@kingledion? Still feel a little terrified?

sighs

What will it take to change your mind on the Orion Nuclear Pulse option, then?

kingledion

First off, they call the byproducts 'Fission Fragments', when they are actually refered to as fission products

Nuclear fission product

Nuclear fission products are the atomic fragments left after a large atomic nucleus undergoes nuclear fission. Typically, a large nucleus like that of uranium fissions by splitting into two smaller nuclei, along with a few neutrons, the release of heat energy (kinetic energy of the nuclei), and gamma rays. The two smaller nuclei are the fission products. (See also Fission products (by element)). About 0.2% to 0.4% of fissions are ternary fissions, producing a third light nucleus such as helium-4 (90%) or tritium (7%). The fission products themselves are usually unstable and therefore radioactive...

Future Historian

Well, it is not as severe as many think.

It is still bad, but not world-ending bad.

kingledion

Second, they are very much not all short lived, there are several that have half lives of years

Third, they are only considering the external gamma effects of the fallout, the problem is spefically with radioisotopes like strontium and iodine that are naturally taken up into the body

When strontium is built into your bones, and then decays over time, you have basically a 100% chance of getting bone cancer

Future Historian

So, basically, Nyrath forgot to account for that?

Oh no!

kingledion

2:02 PM

So no, those Atomic Rockets guys don't know what they are talking about, at least regarding fallout from nuclear pulsed propulsion

If you fire a nuclear pulse rocket in the magnetosphere, you will cause a lot of cancer, period end of story

Future Historian

Well, the only other viable option is launching a conventional rocket or set of boosters to get the Orion to 90 km above the Earth's surface, and then use the pulse units up there.

Which is what I proposed.

So, @kingledion? What will it take to change your mind?

kingledion

I mean....I know a lot about nuclear power since I used to operate nuclear reactors

I'm not going to change my mind

Future Historian

It is not a 1 megaton nuclear device.

kingledion

Unless someone develops a nuclear bomb abatement system, its just not safe

Future Historian

This is a small nuclear device.

As in: 120 tonnes - 10 kilotonnes of TNT.

kingledion

2:04 PM

Tracking, the fallout from that small device will be as bad as Chernobyl, since there is not even a shred of containment

Every last fission product atom isvaporized and distributed to the atmosphere

Plus you are going to be air bursting them much higher up than Hiroshima/Nagasaki

Future Historian

Besides, the option of using chemical boosters to get it into a suborbital trajectory is safer than the full nuclear option, @kingledion.

So, think about it.

Still risky, but somewhat safer than fully using the warheads on the surface.

That way, once that thing reaches LEO, we need less nuclear explosives, and we have more time to focus on defeating the invaders.

kingledion

Look man, you don't have to try to convince me, I know what I know. If you want to write a story about that, go for it, I'm not stopping you. But you you are going to ask about it in chat, I'm going to tell you, for a fact, you will give a lot of people cancer

And the HALO EMP won't be too chill either

Future Historian

Even if it was a measly 10 kt nuclear device?

The EMP only happens at 1 Mt or higher.

Remember?

I thought you worked with nuclear reactors yourself.

kingledion

Its not just one of them, you've got to blow up 200 of them, according your Atomic Rockets link

Future Historian

Well, time to run the math, then.

One moment........

kingledion

2:08 PM

EMP is not limited to 1 MT or higher

Future Historian

Wait.

2 Mt of TNT equivalent in total detonated!

OH NO!

Oh well.

At least it was 90 km above Earth's atmosphere.

@kingledion? I meant for the effects to be significant.

One measly 10 kt nuclear explosive alone will not have an EMP blast powerful enough to cause significant damage. Then again, multiply this by 200 and we have a problem.

So, good point.

Oh well.

Any Plan Bs to stop the invasion before Earth gets overrun?

@kingledion? If you have any alternate suggestions for Earth to fight back, tell me.

Enigma Maitreya

@HDE226868 "Cassiopeiae" - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR_Cassiopeiae unless there has been a change there only two candidates Cassiopeiae and "Jabbah" neither are confirmed . Ha silly me I thought the 7 Sisters were an optical alignment and not gravity bound.

HDE 226868

@EnigmaMaitreya Not confirmed, but thought to be.

Enigma Maitreya

@HDE226868 Yes but didn't the question make it an assertion of truth as all the others were?

HDE 226868

@EnigmaMaitreya Well, yes. But the evidence is certainly in its favor. It's not confirmed, but one could say the same about a variety of things we still have good evidence for.

JDługosz

2:21 PM

@FutureHistorian Have y’all read the novel Footfall?

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