adnominalisation 4 ephemeralist and tim

ephemeralist

23:13

testing

Tim

hi

ephemeralist

Hi! This will be my first time using chat

should be interesting

So there were many points that we tried to discuss in your question/my answer.

Tim

hope so. actually I am not sure there is much left to say: The translations you offered for example one fit in a literal sense but not the actual passage?

ephemeralist

That may be the case, as I'm not familiar with the context

but considering all the things that we touched on in your question/my answer/the comments

there are still points worth discussing, I feel

Tim

the narrator uses this structure to comment on a scene or a characters circumstances quite often - perhaps that is a clue - they commenting on the person/

?

ephemeralist

23:19

yes, the main question is how to express the idea of commenting-on-the-situation

there's plenty of evidence that there is no 1-to-1 correspondence between English and Japanese

"It is raining." was one example

Tim

Yes, Hanako was.... would seem to this and other occaisions

ephemeralist

You mentioned "It is sunny." <-> "The sun is shining." as an analogy

but what makes "The sun is shining." and "The moon is shining." any different?

Tim

yes i did - it was just a thought

you can't say "it is mooney"

ephemeralist

right

Tim

so

ephemeralist

23:22

it seems that certain sentences in English are naturally situational

Tim

...

ephemeralist

which is why you have a valid point

about "Hana wasn't able to say anything to Kayo." being able to express the situation

if not better than "It was a Hana who couldn't say anything to Kayo."

^I agree that this is a bit awkward

Tim

you mean the literal/normal translation does not fit?

ephemeralist

it's a translation choice, right?

making the situational-comment idea explicit vs having an ambiguity

Tim

yes - but not being a trained translator or linguist i would not know what was acceptable

ephemeralist

23:25

To me, this is a borderline case

for 雨が降っている, the choice is clearer

Tim

is that based on experience of this belore?

ephemeralist

I happen to be an amateur translator too :D

Tim

ok

anyway

ephemeralist

the way I approach these things is to try to consider both languages

and what alternatives there are

for example

English has "It is raining." and "Rain is falling."

but Japanese only really has 雨が降っている

so to me, it is clear that you can translate 雨が降っている -> "It is raining."

but for your question

Tim

i think 雨が降って売るんです。＝ It is raining

ephemeralist

23:28

hmm ... that could be closer

Tim

as in that is one use of んです

to say "it is the case that"

んです is an up coming project for me

but to get back to the topic

ephemeralist

ok

Tim

in this show the construction is also used at the beginning of scenes to set them up and introduce the character as they take the stage

in such a situtation something like

ephemeralist

right, a statement about the state of affairs

Tim

Hanako was very busy because her father died yesterday and has has to arrange the funeral

might appear as ........~花子でした。

presumably putting it in the past deliberately

the more i think about it the more it seems to be the only option

ephemeralist

23:33

that's natural enough--a narration in past tense

and I would also agree that most ppl would interpret "Hanako was very busy because her father died yesterday and has has to arrange the funeral." has a statement about the situation

so I'd think your translation would be a valid way to go about it

Tim

yes, but the narrator does not choose to say 花子は〜でした

well that is good to hear, it is a shame we can't find some kind of precedent or explanation from some who has seen this before

ephemeralist

well, I showed you how a literal translation could be done, right?

only it's not very idiomatic English

btw, I wholly sympathize with you

Tim

you are being invaluable help

thanks

ephemeralist

I'm more of a literal translator too

and I often try to mimic syntax

but I don't think anyone can deny that there are certain cases where the literal just doesn't fit as well as a paraphrase

Tim

you mean not take too much literary license?

ephemeralist

23:40

yes

but that's just one style

in any study of translation, you'll come across a variety of styles that range from literal to liberal

Tim

yes but i was studying aspect and tense recently and realised that there was more i only knew subconsciously (at best) so your approach is probably correct

ephemeralist

yeah, when you translate, you have to always keep in mind how both languages work

if something is idiomatic in one, you are entirely justified in finding the idiomatic way to express the idea in the other

Tim

and not produce something non-sensical

ephemeralist

even if the syntax/grammar is not equivalent

just a quick example: tenses

for the past tense in Japanese

Tim

yes..

ephemeralist

23:44

you can have: simple past, present perfect, or past perfect in English

it is you're job as a translator to know what fits in English

*your

I guess that's about it. As long as you understand that それは...はなでした is a statement about the situation

and not just about Hana herself

you can make a judgment on what's best in English

Tim

i guess so. you've helped me get pretty close to the solution. i have asked questions before, got some very helpful answers but not got the true one until many months later

sometimes through something else i see on this website

ephemeralist

I'm glad I could be of help

Tim

i am much obliged - i am going to wait a few more hours see if anything comes up but not expecting it - people either are not sure or it is too complicated to explain to non-academics, which is understandable

i suppose

anyway, thanks. have a pleasant day/evening.

ephemeralist

You too!

Tim

thanks

Transcript for

adnominalisation 4 ephemeralist and tim