@AJHenderson It's the only way we have, they use questions like "do you believe in higher powers?" etc. If they answer no, the box "non-religious" is ticked.

@Cerberus right, I get that, I'm just saying I don't think you can really study if people are truly personally religious and investing in their religion vs just thinking "I'm a good person, so of course I'm religious"

I think you guys are talking about two different things

Perhaps some people will not answer truthfully or accurately, but you can measure trends.

Exactly

I don't believe it.

at all

so

@AJHenderson Admittedly it will work better for people who are already not part of an organized religion, and people who live in a society where religion is not the norm any more. But either way, you can still compare historical results and identify trends.

you can't measure how much someone actually believes something easily. In my experience, (which is in no way scientific or statistically significant) I encounter far more people now who I would say actually take a questioning look at their faith and grow stronger as a result vs simply accepting the cultural norm, in large part because it is no longer the cultural norm so much

I cannot pretend that I do.

aaaaah how could I make the same mistake twice!

I'm making that cake whose layer I baked yesterday

@rumtscho it happens

@rfusca yeah, seems like it

and opening the ganache recipe, I read it closely, to notice that the melted chocolate has to be stirred into the sour cream

@AJHenderson The accuracy of people's answers to such questions is taken as an unknown variable. You have to work around it, which is at least theoretically possible if you compare polls taken at different times.

I even bought sour cream specifically for the recipe yesterday

Oh, dear!

but I put it in the fridge. Now it's cold and the ganache will seize, just like last time

@Cerberus right, but the problem is htat people's understanding of "personally religious" differs

so it isn't that they are lying

Well that sucks

it's that you effectively have a moving target

@rumtscho You put the sour cream in the fridge? Heat it, then?

believe me, this is something I've been curious about for a long time and I've never been able to figure out a suitable way to poll it well

maybe I can get it warm. But I'm afraid it will curdle

@AJHenderson But that is not what you ask them.

Double boiler?

I have to go out in an hour, and I have to have the cake ready and get showered and dressed. I don't have time to be gentle with the heating.

@rfusca that's probably the best choice, yes

Ouch

Can I say that the very idea is bullshit??

I already have one set up, for the chocolate

@AJHenderson You ask them, "do you believe in a higher power?", "can the universe be fully explained by science?", etc. etc. It's not perfect, but I think you get significant results.

@Jolenealaska sure, but it may help to clarify which idea of the several currently being discussed you are talking about :)

@rumtscho Au bain Marie, keep stirring.

:)

You guys aren't talking about the same thing still

@Jolenealaska The ganache with sour cream? I don't know, it sounds interesting...

@Cerberus neither of those questions would get you remotely accurate results

I'm not sure what you mean.

for what I'm looking for anyway

@Cerberus that must be it

hmm I think I will substitute half of it for creme fraiche. less likely to curdle on the heat.

@AJHenderson If you observe that at first 80% of your respondents say they believe in a higher power, then ten years later it's 70%, I think you have evidence that personal religion may be declining.

One is talking about looking for people who have questioned, resolved, and grown in their faith - the other is talking about faith in general vs organized religion

@Cerberus what I'm looking for is why someone believes (or doesn't believe in) a higher power. Or why they do or don't believe science can explain the universe

is it something they simply did without thinking about it

or is it something they thought about, reflected about the world and decided

@AJHenderson "Why" is a difficult question. I was just talking about how you can measure to what degree personal religion declines as apart from organised religion.

meaningly, for themselves, that they, in fact, believe that it makes the most sense

I used to be religilous.

I am not now at all.

@Cerberus yeah, and I agree that personal religiousness is on a decline in your sense

My great-great-great-grandfather may have been religious.

His son, probably not.

@Jolenealaska I think we understand that ;)

because as a trend, religion is less present in our culture and therefore less commonly taken as a "default" stand if you will

my grandma was!

@AJHenderson Yay!

that makes sense and is totally expected

I mean, for our agreement.

@Jolenealaska But not your parents?

if 90% of people basically take whatever is fed to them as the basis of their world view, if the culture changes, you are going to see massive declines

No, because I am a scientist.

@AJHenderson Naturally.

and politics, which is much easier to study, shows us that only about 20% of people actually think about even political stuff

God is crap.

and that's a lot easier and less meaty than deep philosophy and self reflection

I don't believe even a bit of it.

Chill out - nobody is pressing you on it here

@Jolenealaska note that being a scientist and not being religious are in no way linked

"Actually think" is difficult to define...

but I also totally get that you are saying you are in no way religious

I wasn't trying to say you were

@Cerberus and thus, my conundrum

@AJHenderson I wouldn't say that: there is a correlation.

Actually, yeah. I taught Sunday School until 20 years ago. I made a choice...

@Cerberus there is a correlation that people who tend to question tend to be the ones who go in to science and tend to be the ones to lead the spear on the cultural change

they are less likely to accept something for cultural reasons

I don't believe in God

but the same can go for most of the professions that have a tendency to be highly thinking based

it's also common in general academia

I beleve in science.

not just science specifically

Without specific stuff?

Yeah!

@AJHenderson Yes. And both groups are generally more educated that others, even scientists who are barely academic and don't question things much.

@Jolenealaska You do believe in Hades, don't you?

@Cerberus right, it isn't so much that I think science and non-religiousness is linked so much as thinking for yourself leads you to not accept something purely because of cultural norms

Hades?? No.

@Jolenealaska I can agree with that statement

but you'

re cute

@AJHenderson I would state it in even plainer economic terms: people from the higher strata of society are more likely to lead in cultural developments. They are also more likely to go to university.

@Jolenealaska My Master will not be pleased.

@Cerberus He knows where to find me!

@Cerberus yeah, and that's why I objected to the characterization of scientists as being opposed to religion, it is more just that they are naturally among the first to shed religion for religion's sake

instead, those in such fields that choose to be religious are much more likely to do so because of actual personal convinction

which, interestingly, might make an interesting way to study trends in another 20 years or so

Beyond that, they say BS!

@Jolenealaska shudders the ground beneath you

Did a murder mystery dinner theater date on Sunday night. It was great and the food was fantastic. Highly recommend

@Cerberus wow, I'm too tired this morning, it took me entirely too long to figure out why that RP made sense

@AJHenderson It is probably a combination of factors: inquisitiveness should also lead to some degree of correlation here, but it's harder to prove.

@Cerberus yeah, and now we are talking more about what I was trying to talk about with you initially

and why I was saying it is hard to study

what I'm actually interested in knowing about

@AJHenderson Received Pronunciation? You can't even hear me...

role play

cerberus, guarding hades, took a second for me to put two and two together

@AJHenderson It just wasn't what I was talking about in the first place, hehe.

@Cerberus yeah

Ahh got it, roleplay.

3 downvtes. Well..

bastards

Three mislicks!

:)

May they rot in Tartarus, err, I mean...may they strike my other cheek, or something.

@Cerberus which other cheek, you have 6

something like that!

Quite so!

God, I hate when people light fireworks in front of my house.

Stupid tourists.

They shoot up, but what if one goes slightly astray and strikes a window?

Is it then already??

oh hey, and @Jolenealaska - just in way of closing. I do totally get that you don't subscribe at all to any religion and think they are completely wrong in their views of why things are proper. Literally all I was trying to say is that, from a secular philosophy perspective, the philosophy of most religions towards achieving a perfect world have much in common with common secular philosophies.

You can find world religions that match up with just about every major philosophy and the most popular religions tend to also match up with the most popular philosophies relatively closely

in no way did it mean that I thought you were somehow slightly religious

@Jolenealaska They light them all day, alas.

I know some people try to make that incredibly stupid argument that you must be religious in denial because you have some philosophy in common. That was not what I was saying at all, just in case it seemed like that is what I was saying

I understand.

hmm, nobody does fireworks for new years around here, perhaps because it is below freezing most new years

actually, no I take that back, I think saratoga might do some fireworks at firstnight

We don't do 4th of July....It's too light.

@AJHenderson You're lucky. But it's often freezing here around this time of year, and it doesn't stop people.

in a few hours things will get nuts around here.

Oh, dear...

Forget sleep.

I will sleep in my bathroom, if I can get home safely.

is it overkill to throw away all my crappy gladware type stuff and buy cambro for everything?

@Cerberus HeeHee!

Wanna share?

I always do so when there is some noise.

OK....rumours start..................NOW!

Rumours as in clamours?

@Cerberus nobody licks our Jolene!

Haha oops.

Indeed, she was not licked.

We must destroy the evil that did the unthinkable.

@Cerberus why the bathroom?

Really?? well that sucks.

I have been downvoted three times today. And one of our moderators says I will never be licked again. You know what?? It's time for me to go to bed.

Dammit....one of you should be laughing by now.

@Jolenealaska i'm laughing on the inside

Ha! You were not one of my conspiritor types.

i shouldn't be laughing. I'm cleaning my teeth.

i need better organization in our kitchen

Ha! I should do that, I should go to bed....

It's 9:20 am.

Really?

lol

Laugh it up, fuzzball.

Help the allcaps question!

i shaved today!

heee:)

Thats a start.

On that note, I really am going to bed. G'Night!

night

Goodnight!

@rumtscho Oh, sorry, my bathroom is at the back, so less noise.

seriously, how did I not know about this store for cooking supplies

So quiet :o

Guess 0:00 in StackLand may bring some activity :)

HAPPY NEW YEAR!