The Overlook Hotel

6:00 PM

Asking our citizens to increase their activity in those areas on the site requires them to either increase their activity in those areas outside the site, to generate more experience and thus more questions, or asks them to contribute pablum.

RhysW

@Standback this means that people dont give up half way through because they cant catch someone who is doing well

Monica Cellio

@Standback yeah I like the raffle so you always have a chance.

RhysW

how will it be counted? ie people already have some stats in tags

mods will have to go through each person and use timestamps? that doesnt sound fun

BESW

@RhysW This is what I don't know much about, but I am aware that one of the mods spent a good deal of time making complicated charts and tables to track "activity during this month-long period alone."

wax eagle

to be clear, enlisting SE if you're using time/post score based prizes is a good idea. Or using the data explorer yourself

Standback

6:01 PM

@BESW: I suspect that particular takeaway is less strong at Writers.SE than at RPG.SE. Writing is fuzzier, and writing readers have experience outside their own activity.

Monica Cellio

@RhysW we were thinking badge-based, since badge award dates are easy to check.

RhysW

@MonicaCellio what badges?

BESW

@MonicaCellio Pretty sure that's how we did it, too.

Standback

"Nobody plays less-popular games" is more true than "nobody knows anything about writing in less-popular areas".

KitFox

I can see the reasoning for using badges, but that doesn't actually accomplish your goal.

BESW

6:02 PM

1 point for each Announcer badge gained during the month, (don't forget to use the url from "share" to qualify for this)
3 points for each Booster badge gained during the month.
5 points for each Publicist badge gained during the month.
2 points for each nice answer or nice question earned during the month on the following tags (or for new systems not in the list and not merged with an existing tag) (This list was chosen by looking at the total counts of each tags and excluding systems with over 150 questions, then a bit of cleaning).

Monica Cellio

@RhysW announcer, nice *, stuff like that... hang on.

@RhysW yeah those ^^^

KitFox

The first three are all about generating traffic.

RhysW

just gonna check the conditions for those

oh right, thanks kit

BESW

@KitFox But the majority of the tickets were generated from the "nice" badges.

KitFox

And Nice Answer/Question, well, that doesn't encourage asking lots of questions so much.

Monica Cellio

6:03 PM

@KitFox true. So maybe that's not the right list. I don't want to just make it one entry/question because that encourages low-quality questions. But maybe nice Q (or A) is too high a bar.

KitFox

Does it?

RhysW

the issue becomes, will people who are almost winning, downvote others to stop them from getting badges?

BESW

@RhysW Serial downvoting is already policed by mods.

Monica Cellio

@RhysW eww, I hope not. I mean, it's not like we're raffling off an iPad or something big...

Standback

@RhysW I doubt it. SE has mechanisms for detecting serial downvoting,

plus you need some rep to downvote.

RhysW

6:04 PM

@MonicaCellio if there is a contest i can guarantee 100% someone will try to win it using underhand tactics

regardless of reward

Standback

Also, it'd be pretty obvious to the mods and the regulars. We can see the tally.

Monica Cellio

Ok, proposal: in addition to whatever we do with badges (issues there noted), maybe you get an entry for each open question with a minimum score (5?), and likewise for new answers on relevant tags.

RhysW

someone Will advertise a link, and get it visited lots by hiding their ip address, or handing it to a site visiting bot

and yes, those things exist

unfortunately

KitFox

There are tag badges, but that's a pretty high standard too.

Monica Cellio

@RhysW I've got a counter-example but I'm not sure we can ever really know.

RhysW

6:05 PM

@KitFox but people wo already have entries there will get that badge faster, so thats unreliable as people will have contributed to it already

@MonicaCellio nope, im just making sure people are aware!

Standback

RPG.SE didn't have a problem with cheating during their contest. I can talk to SE staff to see if there's any way we can keep a closer eye on it.

Monica Cellio

@KitFox tag badges are really hard to earn on small sites.

KitFox

@MonicaCellio OK, that sounds good. As many questions/answers as meet a certain threshold to make sure they aren't crap.

Standback

Particularly in tags with few questions... you need a tag to reach 100 questions before tag badges can even be awarded.

(I remember when fiction reached 100 questions, and suddenly half the members all got a new badge at once :P)

Monica Cellio

@Standback yeah, on some other sites I've got lots of "20+ > 100 score total" tags with no badge because of that.

KitFox

6:07 PM

But not the badges necessarily because those are almost impossible to get right now.

BESW

I know of no instances of cheating in our contest, and I think that if any non-mod citizen heard of it, I would.

Standback

@BESW, I'm glad you've brought these up.

BESW

@KitFox Yeah, the "nice" badges were our chosen threshold marker.

Standback

For... a wide variety of reasons, I think a contest will do Writers.SE some good,

if only to give its active members a goal to shoot for.

BESW

Oh, and the in-chat raffle? Was a ton of fun. We advertised it as much as we could, and more than doubled our usual chat size for the duration.

RhysW

6:09 PM

and a way for new users (cough, me) to get invested

Standback

(I am worried that 10+ scores are currently very rare. It might be too high a threshold if we don't also bring in more users.)

BESW

Some people new to the chat remained afterward.

It was An Event.

KitFox

@Standback I agree. I think it ought to be 5 or even 3.

BESW

However, without the dice feature, I'm not sure what we'd have done for it.

RhysW

why not both, marker at 5, better marker at 10

KitFox

6:10 PM

Good idea.

Standback

I'll talk to the team - maybe we can get dice?

Monica Cellio

@Standback proposal: score 5 = 1pt, score 10 (nice) = 2 (or maybe more), and include the voting badges?

Standback

@RhysW: Great idea :)

KitFox

Points = number of votes.

So if you get downvoted...

Maybe not.

RhysW

@KitFox hmm, this then heavily ties people scores into visibility

Standback

6:11 PM

@KitFox: Oooh. Interesting.

Perhaps points == #upvotes. No incentive to downvote.

RhysW

which is i suppose what we are after, as we want more visibility

@Standback but then incentive to not upvote

KitFox

Points as a function of upvotes. Maybe not equivalent.

Monica Cellio

@KitFox oh, interesting.

KitFox

Oh! Or points for questions count more than points for answers?

Standback

Points == ln(upvotes)!

KitFox

6:12 PM

Since we're trying to increase the question asking?

Standback

@KitFox: GOOD point.

BESW

Yeah, you need to firmly identify your goal with this event.

Monica Cellio

So, new votes (cast during the contest period) in designated tags = score (modulo some math, maybe)?

RhysW

but we also want people to answer, if no one answers questions because they want to ask them and get rewarded more....

Monica Cellio

@KitFox yes, Q > A

Standback

6:13 PM

Contest only applies to content created during contest period.

Monica Cellio

@Standback yes. New answer to old Q is fine; old Q or A isn't.

RhysW

@Standback definately

Standback

That's easy to query for.

RhysW

@Standback yeah order by activity!

Standback

So you don't need to check for "new" votes.

Monica Cellio

6:14 PM

Good point.

Standback

Just "new content," sufficiently upvoted.

Monica Cellio

Ok, query is for new (non-closed, non-deleted) content during the contest period, count either score or just upvotes, and that's your # of entries? And Qs count (say) double?

Standback

We'll need to figure out the constants, but something like that.

KitFox

Sounds good.

Limited to certain tags?

Or bonus points for NaNo related tags?

Monica Cellio

Yes, certain tags. Here, let me use my ninja editing abilities. :-)

Standback

6:16 PM

I'm thinking #upvotes might be too swingy... somebody getting two friends to vote for his stuff would be way better off then somebody with only one friend.

Monica Cellio

Oh wait, ok I'll hold off.

RhysW

@Standback yeah and us people with no friends are screwed! :P

Standback

...but if we're all authors, that shouldn';t be a concern :P

Monica Cellio

@Standback OTOH, mind the serial-voting detector.

KitFox

Upvotes divided by 5, rounded up?

Standback

6:17 PM

I would say let's stick to just genre tags. Keep it simple and straightforward - those are also the tags I think will get the fewest closes from new users.

RhysW

OH! is there a way to check if people meet the 'use all votes' condition? that would encourage people to participate and not feel like they are 'helping the enemy' if we can count that towards it

Monica Cellio

@KitFox that's similar to 5 votes = 1, nice badge = 2.

Standback

@RhysW: I like :) But they could upvote on non-contest questions...

KitFox

@MonicaCellio Yeah, and continues on up after that.

Monica Cellio

@RhysW we can't expect everybody to use all votes every day, but I mentioned voting badges earlier.

RhysW

6:18 PM

@Standback participation is participation

@MonicaCellio true

KitFox

We're not trying to increase voting though. We're using voting as a means of eliminating crappy questions.

RhysW

true

ok scratch that idea

KitFox

So that we don't get a lot of spam.

Monica Cellio

Though voting badges could be for votes anywhere and while we want to encourage voting we don't want to encourage random "just-click-something-to-get-Vox-Populi" voting.

RhysW

agreed, throw that away

Monica Cellio

6:19 PM

Good point. We want a vote threshold to filter out crap (so mod 5 is better than just counting), but otherwise it's not about voting.

RhysW

did we decide on tags? i keep blinking and missing if its said

Monica Cellio

No not yet.

RhysW

ok good

Standback

Right! I keep meaning to write that.

KitFox

So 2 points for any question in an appropriate tag that has more than 5 upvotes, and 1 point for an answer in an appropriate tag that has more than 5 upvotes?

Monica Cellio

6:20 PM

We've talked about types of tags but not more specific.

KitFox

Something like that?

RhysW

are we having all tags worth the same? or some tags that reward more than others?

Monica Cellio

@KitFox something like that. And more points at each multiple of 5?

Standback

Genre tags: science-fiction, fantasy, mystery, romance, thriller, horror, historical, young-adult, erotica

KitFox

I think since we want to increase question asking in general, we should award points for all questions asked.

Standback

6:21 PM

All tags the same. Let's keep this simple.

Monica Cellio

@RhysW I was thinking all designated contest tags the same.

KitFox

@MonicaCellio Maybe, since those are questions we want more of, theoretically.

RhysW

@MonicaCellio that sounds good

Standback

...I don't know if we want to be advertising an erotica contest, but I wouldn't mind having more of those questions.

KitFox

"How can I determine which words are best for triggering arousal in this scene with a cake?"

RhysW

6:24 PM

@KitFox um

Monica Cellio

So, for all tags on a TBD list, for new posts: Q 2 entries for every 5 score, A 1 entry for every 5 score.

Or maybe those aren't the constants, but Q > A.

Standback

Constants subject to future revision :)

Monica Cellio

(Maybe we want 3:1, or something. Dunno.)

RhysW

dinner brb

KitFox

Sounds good. I think we shouldn't restrict it to tags.

Monica Cellio

6:25 PM

@Standback yeah, I'm a little iffy on erotica.

KitFox

May 28 at 17:31, by KitFox

I used a lot of erotic trigger words in a cake context.

Standback

I don't want to tilt it too far towards questions - it's easy to write bad questions.

Don't want it going entirely out of hand.

Monica Cellio

@Standback but you still have to get 5 upvotes for it to help.

KitFox

Hence the votes requirement though.

Standback

True.

Monica Cellio

6:26 PM

No points just for asking a question.

Standback

Ok, I think we've got the basic structure of things :)

RhysW

awesome!

Standback

Somebody mentioned NaNo related questions?

What kind of questions would that be?

RhysW

novel, word-count

KitFox

34 mins ago, by KitFox

Also, with the tie-in for NaNo, I'll suggest also tags related to collaboration, organizing and working in writing groups, providing mutual support for writers, dealing with technical difficulties when you have a deadline.

Standback

6:27 PM

(Warning: I might be called away suddenly at any moment. Sorry about that...)

KitFox

genre, plot, character

Standback

Hmmm.

RhysW

if only nano wasnt a meta tag

Standback

Ok, I'm less enthused about that, personally.

RhysW

thatd make it easier

KitFox

6:28 PM

just-writing.

pantsless writing

RhysW

would nano be a tag? i mean writing specifically for nano requires different types of answers, and as something to follow there will be people wo want tofollow nano related things

KitFox

shovel of doom

@RhysW That's really a meta tag, I think.

Standback

I don't feel like we're missing questions in those areas... and I don't know that we've got, say, plot honed well enough to handle a directed influx of newbies asking "is my plot ok?"

Neil Fein

@RhysW - That'd be meta tag. Bad news.

Would a tag for deadline-driven-writing tag be meta?

KitFox

Techniques would be different and broadly applicable.

Standback

6:30 PM

I mean, we can certainly say, "Come on over and ask any questions you have over NaNo... particularly about [contest-topic]!"

KitFox

I don't think so.

Neil Fein

Wait a minute, how are those two all that different?

RhysW

@NeilFein exactly!

Neil Fein

nano and deadline-driven?

KitFox

Nano is specific.

Deadline-driven is not.

Neil Fein

6:30 PM

@Standback, you're the meta-tag police here. Any idea?

Standback

EXTERMINATE THEM ALL

Sorry, what was your question?

KitFox

Go easy, Dalek.

RhysW

why not a competition tag?

KitFox

No meta tags!

RhysW

why is that meta? (trying to get my head around it, not rhetorical)

Standback

6:31 PM

These are vague threads whose utility isn't entirely clear to me at the moment. I can think of romance questions, and I can think of character questions,

Neil Fein

@Standback - How would nanowrimo be a meta tag and not deadline-driven-writing?

Or would it?

Standback

but I'm not sure what I'd want as a contest or nanowrimo or deadline-writing question.

It feels like you'd be asking how to do romance or character, in the specific context of NaNo or whatever.

But I could be wrong.

It'd depend on the question.

KitFox

@Standback That's fair.

RhysW

@Standback writers.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/contests

we Have a contests tag

KitFox

How do I do X when I have a deadline to meet?

Standback

6:34 PM

Half the answers to those are just BiC,HoK.

RhysW

so maybe needs to be nuked if its meta!

Standback

We're not an efficiency/life-management site.

(I think.)

Monica Cellio

@RhysW but is nano actually a contest?

It's not like the questions on that tag.

RhysW

personalproductivity.SE

@MonicaCellio you are competing against yourself

Standback

@RhysW: 0
questions tagged
contest

:shrug:

RhysW

6:35 PM

@Standback contestS, plural

Standback

Ah, thanks.

Browsing. Got some good questions there. :)

Any details we need to address?

RhysW

@MonicaCellio no, but if contests in on topic, and nano is like a contest but not, it stands to reason that nano deserves its own tag, sort of thing, if you get what i mean xD

wax eagle

@Standback make sure all this gets into your meta proposal

Neil Fein

@RhysW - Yeah, but those describe the content of the questions. A meta tag is, I think, a tag that doesn't describe the content of the question. So by that logic, questions about nanowrimo could be tagged nanowrimo.

Standback

We'll obviously have plenty of time to work out the kinks on Meta, but anything else we want to discuss now?

wax eagle

6:37 PM

remember no matter what gets decided here it has to go before your community on meta

Standback

Of course.

wax eagle

(and also go past the com team)

Neil Fein

Did we cover what the prizes will be? Or do the SE employees decide that, since they're footing the bill?

Monica Cellio

@waxeagle right, this is just the brainstorm.

RhysW

yup, but ironing out things here is always a good start

am i the only person not blue who is chatting atm? :P

Standback

6:38 PM

@RhysW: Come up with a good NaNoWriMo question, and we'll tag it :P

Monica Cellio

@NeilFein let's collect suggestions on meta for specific books to be offered as prizes.

RhysW

@Standback you got a deal!

Neil Fein

@monicaCellio - k

Standback

Genres work easy. I know there's lots of great genre-specific books.

Neil Fein

@RhysW - Come up with a bad nanowrimo question and we'll shame you. :D

Standback

6:39 PM

(OSC has a terrific F/SF-writing book.)

RhysW

@MonicaCellio if we do, then can you make it so that the winner picks from the pool of books? because the winner might prefer whats offered to second place for example if you hard code the prizes

@NeilFein that sounds less appealing! :P

Standback

Crime and mystery have all these procedural books, it's kind of creepy... and almost nothing on plotting; I've checked :P

@RhysW: We've talked very briefly with the SE team about prizes, but it sounds like we'll have room for flexibility.

RhysW

@Standback your crime enthusiasts will tear you limb from limb if you get the legal / police stuff wrong! it that sense there is a forumla to it

Monica Cellio

@RhysW plus, the winner might already own the "assigned" book. I think we need to have a list of prizes and then let people pick from that in order.

Standback

@MonicaCellio suggested that with a multiple drawing, first picked gets first choice, etc.

Monica Cellio

6:40 PM

(Order = raffle order, as previously discussed.)

RhysW

@MonicaCellio definately, i suggest also having a prize of a book voucher maybe? so that someone can pick what they want out of every book ever

Standback

Great minds remember what other great minds have previously stated in other venues!

RhysW

within the price range of course

Standback

@RhysW: I don't think we're going to be able to swing that.

RhysW

@Standback didnt think so, but worth suggesting

KitFox

6:41 PM

Winner gets a publishing contract.

Standback

SE specifically wanted physical (or at least, pre-determined) prizes rather than prize money.

KitFox

Or a copy of Scrivener.

RhysW

@KitFox if lauren wins that...

Standback

Winner can publish his entire novel as a critique question without being closed!

KitFox

The others get Writers.SE swag.

I want a hat.

Neil Fein

6:42 PM

@KitFox Scrivener! YEs, that's good.

@Standback You can be the mod to read that question. :D

Standback

@RhysW: "Oh, yes. This here is MY copy of Scrivener. And this is the demo copy I use to proselytize with!"

2

Monica Cellio

@KitFox you're blue; you got a hat. :-)

Standback

@NeilFein: If I can't close it, what use will I be to it?

RhysW

yeah if anyone gets a hat its me! :P

KitFox

@MonicaCellio I don't have no hat.

scowls

RhysW

6:43 PM

@Standback and here is one i won earlier?

Neil Fein

@Standback - We can put it "on hold".

KitFox

Just a diamond and a pain in the ass.

RhysW

@KitFox ohohoh! im the pain right? :D

KitFox

Oh, honey, not even close.

Sorry.

RhysW

challenge accepted

Neil Fein

6:44 PM

@RhysW - Hey! I wanted to be the pain in Kit's ass.

KitFox

Who says you isn't?

RhysW

@KitFox biology says he isnt

whew

well, now its quiet!

...yup.

6:46 PM

tumbleweed

Neil Fein

steel guitars

Standback

There's a badge like that!

KitFox

If you say so. Doesn't seem any quieter to me.

Neil Fein

rustling

RhysW

crickets

KitFox

6:47 PM

grumbles about hats

Standback

Anything else, folks? Problems? Concerns? Brilliant ideas for erotica questions you simply can't keep bottled up until November?

RhysW

gives Kit's hat to the tumbleweed

KitFox

Q: How do I make chewing gum sound sexy?

Standback

crickets is a meta tag.

RhysW

@Standback Is a book called 50 shades of black going to be considered racist?

and yes, my friend is writing that book....

Neil Fein

6:48 PM

@Standback Okay, raffle it is.

Standback

@KitFox: Try to relate the sensation of gum-chewing to a sexy experience in your own life. Then, keep that information to yourself. Please.

Neil Fein

tumbleweek looks fetching in Kit's hat

RhysW

@NeilFein tumbleday however does not

Standback

@RhysW: A: It will, UNLESS it's ACTUALLY Hagrid/Sirius Black fanfic. Yum!

RhysW

@Standback i dont even know how to respond to this

Neil Fein

6:50 PM

tumblesecond gets jealous of tumbleweek's hat, insists on getting at least a bandana

KitFox

gives tumblesecond a banana

RhysW

@NeilFein gives it a fez, fez's are cool

KitFox

fezzes

rolls eyes

Standback

"My inner wolf growled at me. But how could I forget the sight of Hagrid, bound so tightly upon the seat of the motorcycle?"

RhysW

i challenge you to a game of fez, hat , bandanna!

KitFox

6:51 PM

feels bad for being mean

Neil Fein

A fez is a fez's best fez.

RhysW

@KitFox cries in corner

never returns

KitFox

Oh ffs. People.

RhysW

eh?

holds up hands whatever it was, it wasn't me

KitFox

Can't you see that my world is upside down?

I am having a hard time holding it together. Actually, I'm pretty sure I'm not.

RhysW

6:54 PM

you're australian?

KitFox

God no.

RhysW

see, the world seems like a better place now right? :D

KitFox

Sort of.

Thanks.

RhysW

wait no! im supposed to be annoying, not helping!

KitFox

This is why you are not my pita. You can't do it instinctively.

RhysW

6:56 PM

:/

KitFox

I'm sorry. It's just not going to work out.

RhysW

puts prodding stick away

ill find someone else to annoy instead!

Standback

Folks, I hereby declare myself retiring from moderating this discussion. If I write anything else, it's guaranteed to be goofy.

RhysW

so youre free to be annoyed? :D

someone not naming any names, fired me today

wax eagle

fired or furloughed?

KitFox

7:00 PM

I didn't fire you. I laid you off. You can collect unemployment.

wax eagle

ah

KitFox

And you're eligible for re-hire.

Neil Fein

To continue to collect unemployment, you will need to document three instances of attempting to find pita bread per week.

RhysW

@KitFox but if im laid off you cant hire into that position for a while so noone can annoy you, or ill sue

Neil Fein

Hummus is not good enough.

KitFox

7:02 PM

@RhysW I'm aware. It wasn't a performance issue. I decided to discontinue that position for a period of two years.

I am hiring for pitn instead.

RhysW

Glad to know I don't have performance issues, I hear that affects a lot of people, gives me an edge

@KitFox ....do i want to know what the n is?

KitFox

Neck.

RhysW

oh god! why would you say that in a chatroom!? D:

KitFox

Oh sorry. I forgot myself there for a minute.

Standback

@RhysW: My annoyance is mostly being monopolized by the current Goodreads debacle, at the moment.

Ah, internet drama.

Neil Fein

7:14 PM

@standback - Care to clarify? What's the latest hoopla?

RhysW

@NeilFein seconded, i have no idea whats going on

RhysW

7:52 PM

tumblemonth

Standback

8:03 PM

@NeilFein @RhysW :Ouch. Sorry; didn't mean to leave that hanging...

GR's always been a bit of a battleground between authors plugging their own work, and reviewers determined to defend their right to diss any book as loudly and as thoroughly as they like. If you stick to popular books, you'll see nothing, but in the sidelines, on the frontier of obscure self-published titles, there's a lot of drama pretty frequently.

RhysW

no worries!

oh wow, interesting

Standback

every now and then GR gets some press about it - what's going on, is it bullying.

etc. etc.

There was a spate pretty recently - an author noticed someone giving a book a one-star rating before the book was even published, started commenting and complaining, which snowballed pretty quickly.

The really bad stories are the ones where one side or the other has actively recruited fans to harass the other side.

Fun days on the interwebz.

Anyway, GR has until now basically sided with reviewers. Everybody can write whatever they like, rate however they like, etc.

RhysW

yeah you dont appreciate the structure of SE til you go somewhere without it

Standback

But a week and a half ago they suddenly changed policy: goodreads.com/topic/show/…

They defined the change as "reviews should be about the book."

You see, some users would use reviews to say "This author started harrassing me when I gave a bad review to book X."

RhysW

Someone used the word censorship to describe this. This is not censorship - this is setting an appropriate tone for a community site

Standback

8:11 PM

Or "This author is homophobic," or "This author supported another author who once harrassed somebody," etc. etc.

RhysW

this seems to be the defining point in their article!

Standback

So "review should be about the book" is their new motto,

except it's immensely unclear,

and their deletion policy has been really bizarre.

They deleted a bunch of content simultaneously with the announcement, with no warning, and later said they couldn't get it back,

and seem to have been targeting specific users,

and haven't been answering questions and have really been quite weird and silent.

RhysW

oh :S

Standback

(Whoops, BRB)

back.

So...

they used to have no moderation at all,

and now they suddenly have this mysterious, arbitrary deletion.

And it's REALLY mysterious and arbitrary. As in,

"But I renamed my authors-who-suck-at-goodreads shelf to hoogledy-boogeldy!" "True. But WE ARE THE GOODREADS STAFF, and we KNOW it was an evil shelf ANYWAY!"

I summarized some stuff over here: goodreads.com/topic/show/…

And the thing is, the "announcement thread" has already gone over 5000 comments, and the staff are just ignoring it completely, and not explaining anything.

GR are a dramatic bunch.

Some people are blaming Amazon (who bought GR recently), and others are saying they're pandering to "STRGB" - Stop The Goodreads Bullies, a really noxious counter-site that sprung up and harassed reviewers very badly.

I don't know about either of those, but man, they are being absolutely horrible to their loyal community.

Stack Exchange

9:16 PM

0

Q: Is there enough money in writing for me to quit my dead end job?

I am currently working full time hours in a dead end job, I began writing a novel with a friend about five months ago now. It began really as a sort of 'bucket list' idea, something we had both always wanted to do. But now five months in, I suppose you could say I have become addicted to writing....

beginner

Stack Exchange

10:58 PM

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Q: Space Between Stanzas: Line Beaks or Paragraph Style?

Nearly all the information I can find about Standard Manuscript Format for poetry is described in terms of the visual appearance of the page. For stanzas, a space equal to the size of one line of text should occur after each and before the next. What's the standard for how to create that space, ...

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