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2:25 PM
It's time to create a room for it I think :)
So that all messages are gathered at one place instead of scattered among The 2nd Monitor
 
cool :)
have you played a lot of hearthstone?
 
@bazola Oh yes, I've played that quite a bit
 
Well hey there :)
 
it blew me away with its simplicity. i think it really refined the TCG idea down to its most basic
 
@SimonAndréForsberg I love the idea of creating your own cards and such, hope I can help with ideas and hopefully a little programming!
 
2:29 PM
@bazola It is indeed significantly easier than MTG. And yet it's not too simple.
 
Imagine that.. Programmers who also like TCG? Who would've thunk?
 
@Phrancis I'm sure you'll be able to help with something :)
@ckuhn203 Programmers who also want to create a TCG :)
 
@ckuhn203 honestly I only got started on this programming thing because I wanted to make games :)
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@bazola Who didn't? :)
 
people who wanted to make more money i guess
the reason I bring up hearthstone though is that because I think that it a great example of a shifting metagame in a TCG. i never really understood the concept until hearthstone
the reason thats important is because it shows just how many unpredictably powerful combinations come about when you have 300+ cards involved
 
2:35 PM
@bazola Stargree, but somehow I became an inhouse dev.
So, I need to go play hearthstone?
Is that what I"m hearing?
 
be careful, you might get addicted
and its on iPad too so you can play it in any room of the house
 
^that
 
Well, no time for MTG anymore. It's too hard to get friends together for it.
 
I had to make myself stop playing it after I tried it, otherwise I would never get any work done. I like that it works great on iPad
 
@ckuhn203 I don't think you need to at all, but I can recommend it. What @bazola says though: It can be addictive.
@bazola I really wish there was an Android version too...
 
2:37 PM
my excuse is that I never spent the big money on a magic deck so I made up for it with hearthstone :)
@SimonAndréForsberg i would love a version for iPod iPhone too
 
Awwww, no iPhone version?
 
@SimonAndréForsberg are you conceptualizing a "virtual" TCG or one with real, physical cards? (or both or combination)
 
@Phrancis Mostly a virtual one. As that's much easier to make and adjust stuff on without having to reprint a whole bunch of cards. :)
 
I figured as much but wanted to make sure
 
Who knows, perhaps a real, physical, one would be the next step? That's something for the future to decide.
 
2:45 PM
So what are you thinking @SimonAndréForsberg?
 
@ckuhn203 About what?
 
I thought if you/we wanted to keep track of card data maybe we could set up a SQLite instance, I have a web server with plenty of room and very little traffic I could host it on. Unless you were thinking of a NoSQL approach
 
There are some important things to decide:
1. Should the game be open source or closed source?
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2. What platform/framework to use? I'd like to see it playable on Android, Web, iOS, Desktop, I know of a couple of Java libraries that would allow that.
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Well, it's a game. There's going to be a lot of proprietary stuff, and a chance to make a profit.
Nothing says that parts of your code base can be open, but in general, it should be a closed source project.
(Just looking out for ya there)
You would want to protect any Art at the least.
 
@ckuhn203 Well, I'm not primarily in it for the money. If profit is made, well that's not bad, but the main goal for me would be to creating something completely awesome.
 
2:49 PM
but, on the other hand, it would be cool to open it up to development.
 
figuring out how to split up the money would be the hard part if more than one person owns the thing, and someone has to handle paying the taxes and researching the relevant laws etc etc
 
@ckuhn203 Exactly. If it's open source, then perhaps that would speed up the development process.
@bazola Exactly. :) It feels like having it open source is a much easier solution, and I think would be better in the long run.
Who knows though, perhaps open sourced and profitable does not have to be mutually exclusive?
 
if the game is good then people would want to pay for it in a packaged up format, and only the most extreme pirates would go and download the open source and compile it themselves if you didn't release the exe for free
 
Excellent points.
Counter points being, it's easier to find exploits if you can see the source.
 
@ckuhn203 It's also easier to fix the exploits if you can see the source.
 
2:54 PM
But that might not be such a bad thing, so long as people are honest and reporting/fixing bugs.
 
Yup. That^^
So, it sounds like what you want is open source. You'll need to settle on a license.
I would recommend something that doesn't allow derivative commercial works.
 
Yeah, but that's just what I want. I'm not alone in this :)
 
This would be a good place to start looking.
In computing, software that is copyrighted and licensed under a software license is done under a variety of licensing schemes. For end-users there are various licenses ranging from very restrictive proprietary licenses to open-source licenses. There are also different licensing schemes for access to and use of source code. To address special intellectual property issues regarding source code, open-source licenses, and special licenses, such as copyleft, have been created. Not all software is licensed, or even copyrighted, and this article is thus not an exhaustive list of the terms under which...
 
I'd also like to see what skiwi and nhgrif has to say, I think they're also interested.
 
2:58 PM
Open source doesn't mean that you have to allow people to sell your software though.
They can use it, they can build on it, but they can't sell it.
Because you may, at some point in the future want to sell it.
 
would we want the theme to somehow reflect that the players are creating the cards? like races of mana eating shape shifters or something
one other thought about the overall design, maybe we could restrict it to a subset of rules with associated costs rather than unlimited free creation? that way we could try to balance the way those rules interact together. and the list of options could still be pretty big. just an idea
the other part of that would be, maybe there are a few different types of base cards, and each of those is restricted to a part of the subset of rules, so certain rules that we know would never work together for balance could be separated
 
3:13 PM
sup honkeys
 
howdy
 
Also @SimonAndréForsberg, there's always the option of dual licensing.
 
@ckuhn203 That is true
 
Under circumstance X, the code is under license Y.
 
licensing for a TCG?
MIT license is my favorite OSS/commercial license most of the time
it's very short and understandable
Copyright (c) <year> <copyright holders>

Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy
of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal
in the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights
to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell
copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is
furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:

The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in
That's the whole thing
then you can attach the disclaimer too
THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR
IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE
AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER
LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM,
OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN
THE SOFTWARE.
Technically the disclaimer is part of the license but it doesn't need to be
 
3:21 PM
that looks pretty good
 
@DaggNabbit That's fine if you're never going to want to sell it yourself. Personally, I would want to keep the option open if it was me. I'd also be uncomfortable with someone else making a profit with something I wrote, but wasn't making any money at.
I'm sorry if I'm a business guy at heart all.
 
Well that's the thing... I think you either open source it or you don't
 
There's free as in freedom and free as in beer.
 
oh wait i read it wrong, i thought it was excluding the ability to sell it
 
Open source can be either.
 
3:22 PM
It doesn't exclude the ability to sell
the problem with doing that is you end up with a viral license like the GPL
the problem with GPL stuff is it can generaly only be used with other GPL stuff
anyone trying to make money essentially can't use GPL stuff in their product
If you were going to dual license you could go GPL/commercial but that's not going to make you many friends
The thing about open source is it can (should?) depend on a different kind of business model
you shouldn't have to sell the software, you can sell support and so on
 
so no open source games are being sold right now?
 
no I don't think it works for games
Games are pretty much either open source or closed source / commercial
There are some weird fringe exceptions like maybe an open source Quake engine that someone took and compiled for mobile and is selling in the iTunes/Play store
 
I'm no expert, but I don't understand why you can't license under something like GPL, write all the code yourself, and then just sell it? if you don't use any of anybody else's code is this still not allowed?
 
you can
but
well yeah you can
in practice though people are going to rip you off even if you told them not to
like, take something like Minecraft... not open source, but might as well be since Java is so easily reverse engineered, and there are tons of knockoffs
Can pretty much guarantee they looked at the (disassembled) code at some point
 
most of the games i buy, i specifically want to give money to those developers to support them
minecraft is so easily ripped off because the idea is so simple, imo
 
3:32 PM
no, it's not just that
 
a cubic world filled with blocks, some ways to combine those blocks
 
the code is disassembled and reassembled by large groups of people on a wiki where they pick through everything with a fine toothed comb
 
do you think their games even made 1% of minecrafts revenue?
 
it's essentially the same thing you'd get from open sourcing it
no probably not but with the sales MC does even 1% is cutting into their profits
and their mobile edition passed up the regular edition in sales a while back and that's where all the knockoffs are
I don't play MC btw but I've been keeping a really close eye on them bc I'm interested in "one-hit-wonders" like this
I guess my point is if something is popular enough people will rip it off no matter what
 
i agree with that definitely
 
3:36 PM
^This is very true. Across the board really. There are an immense amount of CoD knockoffs just on the mobile outlets alone.
 
and if you are talking about survivalcraft on mobile, i hear it is way better and i don't think the guy who made it ripped off the code directly
the nodders for mine craft were adding stuff that was way better than the original game within the first few months
*modders
 
Yeah, that's true too. they have full RPG style minecraft servers now where essentially everything you do levels with you. Even some that have pokemon you can catch, and all kinds of crazy other things.
 
yeah, I was keeping a really close eye on that community for a while, to the point where I was a mod on their public issue tracker and hanging out in IRC with the core dev team :p
 
unfortunately for mojang it doesn't seem like they are going to come out with anything awesome again
 
no they were working on a TCG-like thing
and some other little stuff
but I think the thing that worked for MC was the open-world thing plus modability
if you think about it, most things that have been mod-able have been pretty successful
 
3:41 PM
wasn't the TCG thing Scrolls and didn't it get release? i haven't played it though
 
because the community just kind of builds itself around the game
Scrolls, yeah
I don't remember if it was released or in private beta when I was hanging around there
probably released by now
anyway that's why I really like this "moddable" TCG idea
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I think modability is huge
 
I like it too. It'd be awesome to have some say in what cards I'm playing. Like building a fantasy team, only it's really a fantasy. I'm not stuck with "real" players.
Open World FTW.
 
I know it's just a base idea right now, but are you looking into a single player campaign or something more PVP related like a strictly MP style??
Like the first releases of Hearthstone
 
hmm it would be interesting to be able to play it solo
I think the core mechanics should somehow prevent infinite combos, that's the biggest thing I'm worried about
seems like it could be done with a simple rule like effects can only be applied once per turn
 
how do you definite infinite combos?
 
3:52 PM
I agree, that is the biggest problem with most TCG games as a whole. If you find one solid exploit and then build a deck around it, it becomes really hard to counter. I hadn't even though of essentially putting an ability limit on your turns, that's a great idea (only lifelink once per turn, only haste 1 creature, etc.)
 
do you play hearthstone? would miracle rogue count if you do?
 
no I haven't, I need to
 
That would counteract a lot of "oops, now I have 50 token creatures out because I buffed this one thing a million times this turn" haha
 
stuff like that is what makes TCGs unique though
 
3:54 PM
Hearthstone is great, and the way they handle the mana is much more efficient than MTG, in my opinion. there's no chance you get flooded and only have lands in your hand.
 
I spent a while looking through that thread last night trying to see what everything had in common
how do they do that? That's something that always bothered me about MTG
although it does give the player more choice, build a mana-heay deck or a unit-heavy deck
 
I agree with you Bazola, but there has to be some sort of cut off or balance, or you ar e setting up a game that is very competitive friendly, but not so accessible for the people that can only sit down and play 1 or 2 games a day.
You get 1 mana each turn. Ex. turn 1 you have 1 mana turn 2 you have 2 mana, etc. And it caps at 10 mana.
 
ahh, so there are no mana cards?
 
Nope, and there is a 30 card deck limit. It streamlines a lot of the things that can be irritating about MTG sometimes.
 
the hearthstone mana system is indeed ingenious
 
3:57 PM
I think the mana side of Hearthstone plays so much better than MTG because you get to focus on your strategy more so than your draws and praying for more mana.
 
and the mana is depleted when you use it, right? Like if you use 5 mana you have to wait 5 turns to get it all back?
 
No, it all reset your next turn. If you spend all 5 mana on turn 5 then you get 6 mana starting on turn 6, just like your untap step in MTG
 
hmm interesting
so after turn 10 everyone has 10 mana every turn
 
some classes get cards that give a mana crystal permanently, or take one away. the starting player also gets 3 cards, the second player gets 3 cards plus a card that gives one extra mana the turn it is played
 
Yeah, it really help in keeping play moving steadily and no one gets shut down because of lack of mana. There is an abiliy called overload which has high cost creatures cost less, but it makes you start your next turn with less mana. EX; turn 5 you play 5 mana to play a 7/7 with overload 2, and the next turn on turn 6 instead of starting with 6 mana you start with 4 because of the overload 2.
 
4:00 PM
ahhh ok that sounds pretty good
 
and one class has a card that gives 2 mana on that turn only, so on turn 10 they can play up to cost 14 (15 if they have the second player card too)
 
Yeah, they balance everything really well. And yes, once you hit turn 10 everyone has 10 mana. But there are druid cards (wild growth) that give you an extra mana crystal, putting you a turn ahead of your enemy on mana.
 
yeah mana ramping up at the same rate for everyone almost sounds too linear without mechanics like that
 
Agreed.
 
probably a lot of new games are going to rip off that mechanic i imagine
 
4:04 PM
I wouldn't be surprised, it's one of those "why didn't we think on that?!" moments. Though Blizzard said they did work with Wizards of the Coast to design some mechanics in hearthstone
*of
Has anyone here played Card Hunter by any chance? I got to play the beta before it was released, and it's really amazing.
All browser based as well, whic is a plus.
 
Be curious to look at the source code for that. Hopefully it's not LOL
 
checking it out now
or not
> Adobe Flash Player 11.2 will be the last version to target Linux as a supported platform. Adobe will continue to provide security backports to Flash Player 11.2 for Linux.
 
It's awesome. It's a tactics TCG game. Essentially all of the equipment you put on your character puts certain cards in your deck which are your actions. I was mega hooked on it.
:(
 
I'll try it in a VM later
hmm that does sound interesting
way to make yourself even lass relevant, Flash
2
 
It's a really fresh idea. Think Final Fantasy Tactics style grid combat, but your cards in your hand are the actions you have available. There is a single player campaign which is pretty massive at this point and full multiplayer. You creat your party, and there are different races/classes etc.
Hahaha
 
4:13 PM
hmm so "board position" is actually important?
 
I'm definitely going to try it since its free
 
Card Hunter? Never heard of it. Will check it out today if I find the time (still need to pack some more things...)
An idea I had about the TCG is to use a permissions-similar system, like Stack Exchange sites. For example, some "reputation" requirement for creating cards, some rep required for voting on cards (if that would get added), some required for creating a unique game mode etc.
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About the single-player vs. multiplayer thing: Primarily it should be multiplayer, I think. Some single-player modes can be nice though, such as "Adventure" (Nexrammas in Hearthstone) and "Challenge Puzzles" where you are faced with a situation and have to use your cards correctly to win the situation this turn (as exists in some MTG applications)
 
I'm looking forward to playing this someday.
 
@ckuhn203 Are you talking about our TCG game or about Thornwatch?
 
I thinks that's a good idea Simon, make sure people are active before they get all access.
 
4:21 PM
BOTH
 
@DaggNabbit board position is very important and the maps are all varied depending on the quest you are doing. It's essentially like playing a D&D themed card game.
All of your attacks and spells have range. So you have to find the sweet spot for each class to be effective.
 
@GreyFox I definitely want to check that out, I sort had this idea of board position being at least somewhat important
idk if I'd go all-out grid, but was thinking more along the lines of row of tanks in the front, row of casters in the back or something
so the units up front would take more damage or whatever
 
I think it should be, but I'm not sure how to make board position effective in terms of a straight TCG like MTG or Hearthstone.
 
That's the thing, it would be great if it could be played with regular cards, even if it never is. I think the analogy just translates better, or something
 
Gotcha! That makes more sense. Have a front line of walls and heavys and have your attack force in the back. That'd be neat. Plus you could make it where if certain units are next to each other or behind one another they get a synergy bonus. (Front line catapult, back line foot soldier + 2 catapult damage)
Making a War strategy card game where positioning is everything.
(But more fantasy, of course)
 
4:26 PM
yeah i like that too... so you wouldn't have to worry about keeping your stuff neatly lined up in a grid, but it's pretty clear what's next to what
also AOE and stuff, yay
 
Yeah, definitely. The Synergies would make the positioning important. YES AOES
Yeah it would probably be advantageous to NOT have everything lined up, especially if there are AOEs, but it would be a necessity for bonuses/synergies. So there is a give and take there.
I really like that idea.
 
did anyone play combat monsters? that sounds very similar. you have one hero, you can play cards for equipment to buff them up, and you can play cards to summon other creatures, all on a tactical map
 
I've never heard of it, but it sounds cool. Was it web based or mobile?
 
mobile and pc
i was super addicted up until they started adding new content and then i couldn't play enough to keep up, or pay enough to get the necessary cards
really fun game though
 
That sounds cool, I will have to check it out. That was what was nice about card hunter everything was 100% free. You could pay for certain things, but nothing that was game breaking that would give you a massive advantage.
 
4:36 PM
this game was free with a coin doubler for 2.99. then you could buy packs for 1.99 or something for 3 or 4 of them, or pay like 19.99 to have packs that guaranteed some of the rarest cards. grinding out gold in game did not take nearly as long as it does it say hearthstone
 
here's my thing with IAP
they make a great business model
but they can ruin the balance
so they have to be done right
here's an analogy for a space dogfight PVP game I was thinking about
instead of letting people buy huge nukes or whatever to obliterate their opponents
 
its gotta be one of the biggest challenges because people are so against parting ways with money for games these days, even games they like
 
yeah i think so
instead of letting them pay for OP stuff
you let them pay for stuff that gives them more options
but doesn't make them higher powered
my idea for that game was there would be a pve element and a pvp element
in pve they could capture randomly procedurally generated ships
 
Agreed. I HATE any IAP that have to do with "turns" or "energy" even with a F2P games. If I take the time to download your game, free or not, I don't want to have to either wait, or pay to play it more. especially if I really enjoy it.
 
they could keep the ships they captured in their hangar
the ships would be more or less balanced
the thing they would pay for would be more "hangar slots" to store the ships in
they can still only pilot one ship at a time so you're not giving them an in-game buff
you're just giving them more choice
shit I captured a cool ship but I already have 3 cool ships
and my hangar's full
time to buy more slots
 
4:41 PM
planetside 2 has a similar setup as far as you are paying for more options that may or may not be better than the cheaper options. the problem is that to unlock everything would cost like hundreds of dollars and if you don't pay money, its months to earn a single new weapon
 
yeah that can work too... they can buy a big fat missile that does lots of damage but it's slow
you don't just sell them OP stuff, you sell them balanced stuff... you're selling them more freedom of choice basically
I think the hangar slots thing could translate pretty easily to TCG
your deck is a fixed size in play but you can have reserve cards up to a certain limit, and you can raise that limit (indefinitely) by buying more slots
 
You mean you can pay to increase the size of your side deck? Or just the amount of cards you can have in your vault or whatever?
 
yeah in your "vault"
and maybe you even capture new cards in PVE instead of paying for them
if we do have a solo mode
so once your vault runs out of space you can either scrap cards you don't want or buy more space
at some point you won't want to scrap anything and you'll buy more space
 
For sure. I think that's a good idea.
 
there could be other premium features they pay for that don't affect game balance
or buffs that only work in PVE
 
4:50 PM
its a cool idea but I could see the downside being pissing the player off. for example, they have full slots, unlock and extremely rare card, and have to trash it because the mortgage is due
 
Yeah, the mechanic shouldn't auto scrap cards when your area is full. It should give you the oppurtunity to scrap something to make room for the epic card if you are full.
I think paying for PVE enchancements could be a good idea, because you can be as powerful as you want in that mode. But there would have to be some sort of balance is that can be used as a card unlocking mechanic, because you don't want someone getting all the best cards because they are rampaging through single player, haha.
 
yeah, true
right it would never auto-scrap cards, it would put them in some kind of holding area
maybe with a 3-day time limit or something, then they get scrapped
but you have plenty of time to scrap something else and move them into your vault
 
the initial size of the "vault" (for lack of a better term right now) should be moderately generous. You don't want to play for a day and be capped out and have to pay some money.
That's a great idea. Let them think about either paying to increase their size or getting rid of something else.
 
I'm thinking if decks are 30 cards, maybe the vault is like 50 cards (minus the 30), so they have 20 extra slots
you want them to hit the paywall after maybe a week or two
could even be separate vaults for different card types or tiers or something, idk
 
So you want a player to be running with one deck only, not multiple deck for certain situation?
*situations
 

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