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09:50
@NotThatGuy As eastern Orthodox I tend to believe the account of the book of genesis as a truth. This might be an abstract "meta truth" as Jordan Peterson claims in the lecture series about Genesis which can be explained in a way that aligns with science. The Story of Adam and Eve might be the oldest story humanity has after all. (It could be the moment of humanity gaining conciousness and the concept of the future)

Regarding things like the big bang or evolution, I'm not particularly pushed one way or the other. It is something fundamentally unknowable. I see much evidence for millions of
So while many people get really deeply invested in this "materialism" vs "fundamentalism" debate... I look at the early part of Genesis from a theological perspective and see "God created the universe" but I do not see "How God created the universe"
It does not explain celestial bodies, and the english words are... woefully lacking compared to the original ones.
(Like the formless body of Water... that's actually the sea of chaos... )
@NotThatGuy I mean... recorded eye witness accounts are the best we have for most of history. And while we can argue that eye witness accounts can be flawed... for things like the resurrection of Christ the claim is 500+ witnesses and multiple occasions.
When you say "zero verified accounts of" I mean... there were multiple written texts about the life of Christ (more than just the 4 gospels) these texts were protected and written during a period of systematic extermination (Nero/Domician). There was no riches or reward on earth for protecting Christianity during the first 3 centuries...
And for things in the early old testament, I fail to see how I can provide any sufficient evidence for you. I don't have video footage of creation, or the exodus, I don't have flood evidence either (I'm steel-manning your side) ... all i have is 5000ish years of people protecting these accounts and protecting their integrity as a matter of religious importance.
That level of importance was the highest one that existed at that time... so I mean, we can stay stuck on the "zero verified accounts" thing, or we can accept that the written accounts are the "best possible account" possible before the digital era.
As the Orthodox Church uses the original Bible Canon, I will freely admit again that there are "fictional" books within the Bible intended to teach a lesson without being a historical fact. (original: as in not the one where the protestants removed all the ones that seemed annoying to them)
I believe we have significant evidence for Jesus having actually lived. I respect your skepticism about how significant his life was or not.
@NotThatGuy Well... I'm not sure that is a fair thing to compare. For example the alien thing, before "strange encounters" aliens had different descriptions... after the move people were almost universally abducted by "almond shaped headed things"
@NotThatGuy I find that a significantly more respectful and reasonable opinion then most people who debate with me about this subject, I appreciate that.
Though regarding miracles and things... I am not sure what you would want. Everyone who has been skeptical of miracles, when I give them a list of places and times to go visit reoccurring miracles, they never go visit.
There is a church where there are multiple tons of trees that don't pierce the thin roof, this is physically possible of course but for so many trees to all do the same thing, and not just "push down another inch or so" is remarkable.

There is a church were every year for a long time (except for 2 terrible years, WW2 and a massive earthquake) there is a church where for many days snakes come and seem to pay respect to an icon of Mary. They then promptly disappear later and are difficult or impossible to find again. Again... you can explain it away if you like... perhaps is it a mating ritu
In our experience, I think we both agree... people believe what they want to believe.
I can present lists of things you should go check out, but you can just as easily "avoid doing the research personally" and just see some video of how to replicate it with chemicals
Not sure how to make the snakes thing happen, or the trees... luck? when is luck just a miracle?
I mean... talking about consciousness is hard. I think science doesn't have a clear grasp on why or how. They do know that functions of intelligence are affected by the brain. And LLM can imitate humans well, and machine learning is... pretty bad, maybe that changes. we both don't know yet.
@NotThatGuy I agree, people being stupid and irresponsible are not helpful. But that is true regardless of religion. People can be just as lazy and outside of religion can allow themselves to be nihilistic. (At least religion helps against the thought of "nothing I do matters", it is not perfect, but it sure helps to have a community and leaders telling you that you matter)
@NotThatGuy See, this is something I fundamentally disagree with about all the western churches and this guy Augstine of Hippo... who basically changed the faith from being about Love... into this "just don't get sent to hell" mentality.
I admit as a protestant child, I also worried about things as well. Though it was resolved with a few questions to parents/pastor. Your experience aligns with my criticisms of the western protestant churches... they have no uniformity. They cannot provide any "authoritative answers" (and the catholics are untrustworthy... from the protestant perspective)
The fact that protestants have no issues with "multiple different interpretations" being "acceptable"... yeah, that sin allows things like your experience to occur.
@NotThatGuy I mean... if we want to get into education. The whole system is really messed up right now. However I think you want the right to teach your children how to believe based on your belief. I think it is unlikely you'd be happy and proud of your children if they rejected your fundamental core beliefs. (Which is what religion is, the fundamental method of how you aim your life)
I agree we should teach comparative religion in school sure. But, how to you avoid over simplification of religions? Religion is suppose to address the most deep and fundamental emotional/societal/personal issues humanity has. You going to honestly be able to describe and explain each major religion in that level of detail?
Christianity due to the (sins of the western church) is now 100,000 splinters of faith... so that would be a full 4h class everyday for years to get into it all
and then you have the other major religions... I like your "theoretical ideal" but I think it is not possible in reality, and I think fundamentally you don't actually want it.
even though you claim you do, I'm not trying to judge or anytihng... it just sounds like something that would be untrue if we dig down deeply.
 
5 hours later…
16:08
@Wyrsa The Bible
"recorded eye witness accounts are the best we have for most of history" - Well... (a) There's also corroborating physical evidence for a lot of history. (b) A lot of it has independent and contemporary accounts. (c) Most of history isn't claiming much extraordinary - if I tell you that I had breakfast this morning, it'd be reasonable enough to believe me, because many people do that every day. If I tell you I shot lazer beams from my eyes, you should doubt that.
(d) Accepting that e.g. Caesar existed and did stuff does not entail any changes to your life (if it did, it would make sense to apply more scrutiny to that... and also, we have much, much better evidence for Caesar than Jesus). NONE of that is true for the Bible.
"the claim is 500+ witnesses" - there's ONE account (Paul) of 500 witnesses. If I tell you there were 500 people who saw me shoot lazer beams from your eyes (but you can't hear from any of those people directly), does that add any credence whatsoever to my claim? It shouldn't.
And a lot of the 4 so-called independent accounts are word-for-word copies with incompatible differences in other places, which makes more sense as them just copying from one another (in particular: subsequent accounts made the story more extraordinary; e.g. the resurrection in Mark is commonly considered to be a later addition), rather than them having been actual witnesses (also especially considering that the texts are dated to decades after the events in question).
"There was no riches or reward on earth for protecting Christianity..." - you could say the same about other religions. People perpetuate it because (a) they considered it a myth, and they perpetuated it as such (but this context was lost over time) and/or (b) people really believed it (or somewhere in between: people didn't draw a clear distinction between fact and fiction... as you don't seem to either). This says little about whether it's true.
Also, the church gained millennia of immense power, money and influence from this (this is much reduced today, compared to the height of their power).
"the 'best possible account' possible before the digital era" - that's far from true. In comparison to other notable figures at the time, the evidence for Jesus is rather poor. Also, this is supposed to be the inspired word of an all-powerful (or "all-authority") entity, yet you're judging it by human standards, as if the text is constrained to human ability, as if Jesus just arrived when he arrived with no planning or forethought and the humans around just needed to make the best of that.
If we consider that God could've done anything whatsoever, Jesus could've come at any time (including in the digital era), he could've gone to multiple places, etc. - by that standard, the evidence seems abysmal.
Miracles
"Though regarding miracles and things... I am not sure what you would want" - here's some attempt at narrowing down a spiritual experience that might get to justified belief: philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/105257/…
"this is physically possible" - that's the key point with a lot of those miracles. I'm far from a specialist in trees or snakes or flowers or chemical processes, to be able to make much judgement about what's going on there. I have heard experts break down various supposed miracles into rather mundane explanations. But if we don't know, then the answer is just "we don't know".
This idea of religious artifacts having some magical property that affects things around it - I'd say that's questionable evidence for a god. If it's meant to be a message or sign from god, the meaning is far too vague and ambiguous, and it's far too likely that it's just some natural process we may or may not understand yet.
How many churches are there in the world? How many possible things can happen in or around any given church? How many things happen in nature that we don't understand, that might seem significant to us if it happened near a significant place? Add all of that together, and also add in humans possibly helping those events along, and you'd end up with a plenty of churches where a lot of seemingly-significant things happen (and plenty where they don't). That's just a statistical inevitability.
Unjustified beliefs
"people believe what they want to believe" - not consciously, but yeah. Although that's not a good thing.
"people being stupid and irresponsible are not helpful. But that is true regardless of religion" - but unjustified belief creates harm on top of that. Even if people try to be good and generous and responsible, they often still end up doing harm, because they act on their beliefs, and those don't correspond to what's true if those are unjustified. This problem also exists in the pseudoscience "wellness" industry, some political rhetoric, etc., but I also oppose all of that.
"who basically changed the faith from being about Love... into this 'just don't get sent to hell' mentality" - but you still maintain that there'll be some form of suffering in the afterlife (even if it's "your own doing" or something). So if someone's already doing the love thing, it's natural for them to wonder whether they're doing the "right" things to avoid the suffering (and with unjustified belief, that's unresolvable).
Education
"...your children..." - As a hypothetical parent, I'd start off giving my hypothetical children some foundation of truth, sure. But more than that, I'd try to teach them how to evaluate evidence and reason soundly to come to justified belief, and also to live morally with a solid moral foundation. As part of this, I would almost certainly give them an honest representation of the most pervasive unjustified beliefs (religion is one of the most common), to share my reasoning for rejecting those.
Of course, I wouldn't want them to believe things I consider unjustified or do things I consider immoral. But I can only do so much to stop that (i.e. teach them well). Isolating them from bad ideas seems more likely to leave them unprepared to deal with those (although it's not like I'd read them Mein Kampf or whatever). A solid epistemology doesn't have much to fear from disagreement.
And, who knows, maybe they'll prove me wrong in some respects. I'd consider that a sign that I did a good job.
A lot of religious folks (particularly fundamentalists) are a lot more afraid of letting their children see anything that disagrees with their belief, and they'll outright lie about atheists and about science (probably heavily influenced by the fear-mongering that's built-in to their belief, that those things lead to eternal hellfire).
Or at least apologists outright lie (or they're utterly blinded by cognitive bias so they can't see that they're doing something wrong when told time after time after time that they're misrepresenting facts and misrepresenting other people). Regular parents may just believe apologists and pastors and not know any better.
"how to you avoid over simplification of religions" - split religions into some similar groups and have them decide amongst themselves how to best represent their own group. There can be different classes at stages. 10-year-olds might benefit from just getting a few 10-minute overviews of different religions. Teens have more reasoning ability and they'd have been exposed to more apologetics and such, so that may benefit from some Q&As. And universities already offer comparative religion courses.
We oversimplify lots of things for education. Even for things like maths, we initially teach that you can't squareroot a negative number, and it's only at university where one might learn the foundational principles of maths, that justifies why maths is the way it is.
"Christianity ... is now 100,000 splinters ... I think fundamentally you don't actually want it" - well, atheism doesn't quite have the same problem, so maybe I'm a bit biased (on the other hand, a lot of Christians do like to simply call themselves Christian, and plenty don't even know what denomination they are). Atheists believe a wide range of things, but on the topic of atheism, I suspect I could get most atheists to agree on some 10-minute overview of different perspectives of atheists.
Miracles again - see also, this answer, where I talk about miracles closer to the types you mentioned: philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/117233/…

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