What is an example of a visa issued by a schengen member, limited by countries? Even tourist visas seem to simply state "schengen" on the visa.

It is very rare, but visas can be issued with restrictions, it would say for instance Etats Schengen (-DE) for a visa issued by France which does not allow travel to Germany. But again: the chance one gets checked is quite low.

I understand that they don't check, but I am worried about the law in principle. The way our authorities present this is that if your workers do not return to their own country the same way they came, you will be to blame. Which doesn't seem right, if they go to another country, which gives them another visa how is this illegal?

@user1721135 It’s quite possible they don’t get a permit in the other country, and work illegally. It would be exactly the same if they stayed in your country past the validity of the visa and worked illegally there as well, the only difference is they may get more money in other countries.

@user1721135 One regular situation used to be type C visas issued to Kosovar citizens. These were regularly issued for 'all states except Spain', as Spain does not recognize Kosovo as an independent country. Since Jan 24, Kosovar citizens can travel visa-free to the Schengen area and Spanish authorities have also changed their policy, now allowing Kosovar citizens to enter Spain with their passport.

@user1721135 Maybe it should be pointed in big letters that Schengen visas do not allow you to do any kind of work, only (some kind of) national visas and residence permits allow working, if you have workers with only a Schengen visa, they are working illegally and that might be related to human trafficking.

@Dr.Snoopy What you are saying is not exactly correct. Many, if not all Schengen countries allow visa free visitors and short term visa holders to work within certain, restricted areas for specific purposed, e.g. science, culture, media or tourism. It is not uncommon for researchers, artists, journalists or e.g, tour guides to work in the EU or Schengen Area while visiting on a type C visa, without having any additional work permit. Germany will e.g. issue work permits to Moldovan and Georgian citizens on visa-free visists for seasonal agricultural work.

@Tor-EinarJarnbjo That is still part of national law and not in the Schengen agreement, and it even goes into a definition of "work".

@Dr.Snoopy It is not relevant who is regulating the matter. Your statements 'only (some kind of) national visas and residence permits allow working' and 'if you have workers with only a Schengen visa, they are working illegally' are simply wrong.

@Tor-EinarJarnbjo Can you point to an official source for that? Because even the European Commission's FAQ on Schengen Visas says that you cannot take up employment, which goes into my point about definition of work. See eeas.europa.eu/sites/default/files/…

@Dr.Snoopy 'Take up employment' and 'work' is not necessarily the same. You don't 'take up employment' in the EU if you work for a foreign employer while being in the EU, like e.g. guest researchers, artists or journalists often do. Nevertheless, here is e.g. information about the requirements for agricultural, seasonal workers in Germany. It is explicitely mentioned that workers from Moldova and Georgia can get a work permit while visiting visa free: svlfg.de/auslaendische-saisonarbeitskraefte

@Tor-EinarJarnbjo Getting a work permit goes beyond a Schengen Visa, the question is about Schengen visas, the work permit is what allows you to work, not the Schengen visa, in that link not even the work "Schengen" seems to be present. You seem to be confusing what the question and answer is about.

@Tor-EinarJarnbjo you are actually confirming that seasonal workers need a work permit. While you can do stuff on a visa-free or type-C visa visit (the usual “business” vs. work debate), you cannot just “get a job” in Schengen countries without the appropriate visa or permit, which is what this is all about.

@jcaron What this is about is, that you don't need a national visa or residence permit in all cases to be allowed to work in EU countries (as Dr. Snoopy claimed). Certain kind of work is allowed on a visa free visit or while visiting with a type C visa and for other kind of work, a separate work permit is available, which can be used in combination with a visa free or type C visa visit.

@Tor-EinarJarnbjo “available” means you can ask for one, not that it will automatically be granted (otherwise they wouldn’t have one in the first place)

@Tor-EinarJarnbjo You did not provide official information about working only using a Schengen Visa or equivalent, you keep talking about work permits which proves my point. One you have a work permit/residence permit, you don't need any Visas anymore. And in most EU countries, if you apply for a work permit, it may take 3 or more months, in the meanwhile you cannot work, and you might have to leave while the work permit is being approved. Some countries like Germany do not in general let Schengen visa holders to apply for residence permits (only to a select visa-free countries).

@jcaron to be unnecessarily exact seasonal workers can come on a C visa and be "registered", they do not get a work permit. Their registration can be denied though.

@Dr.Snoopy waiting on work permit decision usually gives you the right to stay and wait on decision.

@user1721135 Yes, but not to work/take employment that depends on the decision.

@Dr.Snoopy I can't give you comprehensive legal explanations in the 600 characters limit of a SE comment and I find it unneccessary to be your secretary, but if you for some reason are not able to google stuff yourself, here is a list from the German embassy in London containing all the kinds of labour you can perform in Germany without any kind of work permit. It includes, as I already listed, researchers, journalists, artists, sportsmen and several other categories. uk.diplo.de/uk-en/02/visa/…

@Tor-EinarJarnbjo You should read the fine print, these exceptions are very narrow and a regulatory minefield, its not all researchers, but only from foreign public higher education institutions, internships with specific funding conditions,etc. The general pattern still stays. And the link clearly says its not legal advice.

@Dr.Snoopy This is not at all a regulatory minefield, but pretty clearly defined exceptions. At least for limited periods, as long as the foreigners keep their residence abroad and are employed abroad, there is actually a quite broad range of 'work', which can be performed in Germany without a work permit. Other EU and Schengen countries have similar exceptions.

@Tor-EinarJarnbjo I know its a regulatory minefield because not even institutions know how to apply these, and when they change. Just an example, the website says: "Please note that the following exemptions are not exhaustive and are subject to individual interpretation. They are meant as a guideline only and do not constitute legal advice. It is the responsibility of travellers to ensure that any activity conducted falls within the scope of permitted activities. If in doubt, you should take legal advice from an immigration lawyer or specialist"

@Tor-EinarJarnbjo Even worse: "For C visas involving an economic activity, we may require approval from other German government agencies, such as the Federal Employment Agency (Bundesagentur für Arbeit) or the local immigration office (Ausländerbehörde). Once a decision has been made on your application, we will contact you." So you having a Schengen C visa might not be enough if you did not apply specifically for that activity as part of your Visa application.

@jarnbjo The short-term visitor visa does not grant the right to work for those seasonal workers, however, the visa might grant the right to apply for a short term work permit inside Germany. I do not believe however that that's what's happening as Moldovan and Georgian citizens do not qualify for getting a residence permit when entering without an appropriate visa type: auswaertiges-amt.de/en/visa-service/buergerservice/faq/…

ah I see

@jarnbjo question is, to me, clearly about disallowed types of work. If human trafficking is even a concern, I doubt "researchers, journalists, artists, sportsmen" is the line of work involved.

Yeah, indeed, it's about seasonal hotel workers. Which are not within allowed lines of work within the scope of a basic schengen visa.

I think also if a company is getting workers temp visas, then they keep going to other countries to seek employment, it makes sense to investigate for human trafficking. An investigation need not result in a charge, and I hope that showing that this was not something precommunicated and is not actually a pattern would be sufficient to satisfy the investigation.

Human trafficking, as a reminder, need not involve things being involuntary or any sort of inhumane treatment being part of it. "We'll get you from point A to B, where B is a place you could otherwise not get to, and process will involve fraud" is sufficient to fit the criteria, here's a recent example that comes to mind: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_passport_scandal

@jcaron "Type D (national) visas allow work only in the country which issued it.": And even then, not every type D visa allows work; it only does so if the country that issued it says it does.