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05:50
Morning :)
 
2 hours later…
08:13
@LucasKauffman Mornin' Lucas, you're up early!
 
1 hour later…
09:31
@RoryMcCune yea, I didn't choose the Big4 life, the Big4 life chose me D:
@LucasKauffman I'd laugh but I've got a 4:30 am start wednesday next week for a 1 day trip to london..
@RoryMcCune ouch that sucks :/
@LucasKauffman yeah red-eyes to London are never a fun experience.. especially when you have to do something requiring intelligence at the other end... but hey that's consultancy :)
@RoryMcCune as long as you make the client happy :p
Hiya
09:41
@M'vy Mornin'
@M'vy morning
morning all
@RoryAlsop morning
@RoryAlsop Mornin'
morning @TerryChia
morning to ALL THE THINGS
09:43
hey guys.
@LucasKauffman Well apart from @TerryChia where it's got to be at least Afternoon by now!
@RoryMcCune 5.44pm. :)
@TerryChia so almost evening depending on how you cut it!
Hum, it seems that Isaac Clarke attended my class
@RoryMcCune indeed. plus my holidays are starting wooo~
09:46
@TerryChia nice :) These days I don't seem to get holidays, so much as go to conferences when I'm not on jobs..
although can usually tack a couple of days looking round wherever we are after the event...
10:17
I'm confused over Microsoft's naming scheme. Is Visual Studios 2012 Ultimate or Professional the more expensive one?
10:29
@TerryChia I would look at the price tag, that's the giveaway :-)
(no idea, sorry)
@RoryAlsop Hah, I'm actually getting a free copy from MSDN. No idea which one to download.
@TerryChia @RoryM would probably know these things (or at least can ask someone probably 5 feet away who knows much about Microsoft :-)
Ahh, looking at the microsoft site, Ultimate is the one I want.
And it's interesting the site doesn't load on Chrome but works fine in FF.
 
1 hour later…
11:59
Out of curiosity, do people here like rkhunter and chkrootkit, and if you do, which do you prefer?
(or any alternative(s))
@Tinned_Tuna I use rkhunter, I quite like it, but be aware it has a number of false positives on modern distributions.
12:17
I thought rkhunter checked against an external "known good" db of hashes?
@Tinned_Tuna It does, but it also has a database of known bad locations. Some of these it turns out are actually also used legitimately. That's my experience running rkhunter regularly on my box.
For what it's worth, as I understand it chkrootkit has similar issues.
Provided you're prepared to dig carefully into the results, both are good.
@Ninefingers unfortunately, I was hoping to have something that I can set to run in cron every night and just get an 'Ok!' without having too much trouble...
is there anyway to squelch the results?
i.e. deliberately ignore false positives
12:35
@Tinned_Tuna Well, how can you automatically determine that it is a false positive? ;)
@TerryChia if it's repeatedly the same result, then squelch it?
/away
herp, not IRC.
13:09
@Tinned_Tuna I get it to email me the results and I give them a quick scan over.
13:41
@TerryChia Ultimate is the one that has everything, same as with Windows editions.
Whether or not that's the one you want, is a different question.
Odds are, you wont have any use for 90% of the added features that you only get with Ultimate, at least.
And then you're just stuck with an overly heavy suite, flooded with features you dont need and dont even know what they are, making it harder to find the ones you should be using.
@AviD Heh. I must say I only use a small fraction of VS's tools. I don't really do that complicated programming work.
I installed the Ultimate edition anyway, since it's free.
@TerryChia heh, exactly.
@TerryChia free from money, but not from other resources...
even though I have full license available, I insisted on installing only the free Express version for my daughter. No need to waste time with dozens of tools she doesnt understand, when just about everything she would need is already there.
Well, I have plenty of disk space and RAM on my workstation, so it isn't a concern. Clutter might be more troublesome to deal with, but it's working out decently so far.
Are there any new features that are useful or notable over the 2010 edition?
@TerryChia thye have done a good job in 2012 on pushing forward only what you need, and hiding everything else...
but it does load a tiny bit slower.
then again, you probably dont have projects big enough to notice that either, yet.
@AviD Indeed.
13:51
@TerryChia yeah, quite a few. cant remember anything off the top of my head right now (except for 4.5), but I checked at the time and it was sweet.
also the IDE itself is just better. Somehow.
@AviD Well, it certainly looks better, aside for the menubar that is screaming at me. Gotta fix that soon.
I love VS2012. They've improved it quite a lot.
@TerryChia hehe, yes Ive read that drama.
My main holiday project is gonna be attempting to write a C# implementation of the Google Authenticator. There doesn't seem to be a port out there, unless any of you knows of one?
@TerryChia isn't that just TOTP ?
14:01
@Tinned_Tuna I guess so. I have no idea on the details. Gotta do my research first.
I just thought it would be a slightly interesting holiday project.
if it does turn out to be TOTP, it's dead easy to implement :-)
@Tinned_Tuna I think it supports both TOTP and HOTP.
Have you guys seen the Chromebook Pixel? Talk about stupid.
They're effectively the same, except HOTP has a counter where TOTP has a 'time slice'
@Tinned_Tuna Thanks :) I'll read that tomorrow. Taking a break tonight.
@TerryChia slacker.
14:06
haha
Wow. This doesn't even need a caption.
But it got one.
@Iszi That... is... wrong.
the woman has a look like she realizes something is wrong.... but does it anyway.
@Iszi that... is... fucking hillarious.
@RoryAlsop When do we get to see it?
14:18
@AviD tattooing, what'd you get?
@Tinned_Tuna huh? not me...
then, statistically, it must've been Rory.
(My memory of people is not great, many apologies)
@Tinned_Tuna It's always a Rory.
@Tinned_Tuna I know, us white folk all look the same to you.
14:25
@AviD you text-based folk all have the same font to me.
@Tinned_Tuna whoa, dude, that's racist.
s/ist/y/g
@Tinned_Tuna oh I just checked out your blog. I feel a bit better, I was suffering through paypal crap this week...
haha, thanks.
missed out the secret questions bit, though.
14:28
they still haven't gotten back to me... >.<
@Tinned_Tuna For most people, leaving PayPal simply isn't a viable option. :(
I know. That's what bugs me, their outright monopoly allows them to be exactly as evil as they want.
too many sites accept it for buyers to leave
too many buyers locked in to the system for the merchants to leave
@Tinned_Tuna Contrarily, it's the merchants who could drive the departure. Most buyers who are using PayPal would just as easily use a credit/debit card directly on the merchant's site.
So why don't they, using PayPal is expensive as all hell, isn't it?
I think having to work directly with the PCI vendors is expensiver
@TerryChia I never "joined" PayPal, so I fail to see your rationale.
15:26
online payment sucks
most websites don't even accept a normal wire transfer
@JeffFerland My highest voted answer on stackoverflow is quoting the C# spec about some implicit conversions. I'm so proud of that answer...
I think I'm proud of my highest voted answers on both SF and sec.se
15:51
I am not proud of my answers; I am proud of myself.
But I notice that some of my answers are appropriate testaments to my Glory.
Q. (and perhaps this is one for meta ) what's the best way to handle a question where the correct answer has changed over time?
My second-highest voted answer here is one I've had to give at least three different times between here and one or two of the trilogy sites.
@RoryMcCune Check the SOFU metas. Surely that's been asked before.
my second highest answer on SE is on meta.so:
36
A: What is "Ask Patents" and why is it secret?

Rory AlsopReading the faq will make it clear why this one is a wee bit different Ask Patents was designed in collaboration with the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) and Peer To Patent, whose efforts empowering citizens to help find prior art inspired the crowdsourced approach you see h...

and my highest question is a stupid one on Skeptics:
47
Q: Were children safer in the good old days?

Rory AlsopEdited, as every site I found in my search last night gave me sites that all say the same thing: The perception is that the world is a really dangerous place for children these days But the statistics I seem to find online seem to imply that despite the media hype around kindapping, serial kill...

@Iszi what's a SOFU meta?
Disappointingly low quality, for the score they got
15:59
@RoryMcCune [meta.so]/[meta.sf]/[meta.su]
@Iszi ahh it's a meta-acronym
It's a metacronym!
Actually, a meta-acronym would be:

I'm So Meta, Even This Acronym (ISMETA)
@Iszi so I found some stuff about changing the accepted answer for your own questions, but in this case it ain't one of mine. I'll try pinging the questioner
@ScottPack It's still a bit like this, only the right hand side has been powerlined (apparently this means some lines are thickened). Next session the left gets powerlined. Then a new glyph gets posted at the top, then highlighting and UV reactive bits added, then finally some colour...
16:18
Hey, does anyone have any reasonably high profile examples of viruses (or just malware in general) that used a heap-based buffer overflow to get on the system? I've been able to find ones that use stack-based overflows but Google isn't so helpful with heap-based ones. Didn't know if this would be a good question for the site so thought I'd ask here first.
@RoryMcCune Snark like that is totally lost when a more-interesting movie trailer is thrust in front of it via YouTube's advertising.
@Iszi I know I realised that might happen, "Damn you Youtube Ads!"
@Peanut As it falls into the realm of "open-ended list questions" it is definitely not a good question for this (or any SE) site. Good for chat, though.
YouTube ads are really starting to piss me off. Used to feel like I only got hit with them on about 1 in every 5 views (or even less often) and could skip them about 50% of the time. Now it seems like I get them 2/3 of the time and can only skip about 1/3.
@Iszi yeah I'm suprised at the rise in unskippable ads. I remember when they put them on I read an article that they realised that leaving the skip there actually helps retention on the site
And where's the damn "I'm married - I don't care about dating services!" button for YouTube? That ZOOSK "follow your heart" ad was cute the first time - really old and annoying now.
16:22
definitely if I hit a 2 min unskippable ad I'l probably leave the site quick time
@Iszi yeah I get "mature dating" ads which combines annoying with taunting me about my age! great customer retention strategy that..
@RoryMcCune To be fair, I totally could have skipped the movie trailer. But they managed to actually catch my interest first. I think they finally figured out that by putting the MPAA rating warning up front people were skipping the ad before they even saw what the movie was - so they put a teaser clip ahead of it to catch your attention.
Sorry @Peanut - we rarely stay on the site topic for long, here. The topics listed in the room description are roughly in the order of priority they take here.
@ScottPack @RoryMcCune @RoryAlsop @AviD @ThomasPornin - Any of you guys have an answer for @Peanut? He's trying to find an example of high-profile malware that used a heap-based buffer overflow (as opposed to stack-based) to exploit the system.
@Iszi not really my field I'm afraid, could be a good topic for a question tho' I'm sure someone must know (maybe @Polynomial)
@Iszi Hah! It's fine, not a big deal. Just would like a few for a report I'm doing, I'll check back in later and see if @Polynomial is about.
@RoryMcCune I didn't think it would be a good SE question because it has strong potential to generate an open-ended list.
@Iszi Ah are those bad? Sorry I'm never a brilliant arbiter of good/bad question-ness
16:33
@Peanut: the PS3 Jailbreak uses a heap-based overflow.
@RoryMcCune Generally very frowned upon, to say the least. Spend some time over at Science Fiction and Fantasy and you'll see how those usually go.
It is (was) a USB device which induces an overflow in the PS3 operating system by sending different decide ID strings. The data overflows over the vtable for a C++ object (i.e. function pointers) which is just after in the heap.
@ThomasPornin Thanks for that, I'll have a look into it. I think I found an iPhone jailbreak that uses one as well however I was more after something with nefarious intent rather than a jailbreak.
@Peanut Ah, "nefarious" depends on the point of view. Sony was not pleased.
@ThomasPornin Haha true! Perhaps viewed as malicious by a majority then would be a better way of putting it.
16:41
Alternate: Does requiring your customers to use an Apple mouse improve security? :D
@JeffFerland Burn in hell.
APT. Right there.
@JeffFerland looks more like RSI than APT to me
2
17:00
@JeffFerland Kinda looks like it wants to turn in to a Hotwheels racing car
@RoryAlsop If it's going to turn into anything, I'd have guessed a megalomaniacal robotic life-form.
Wow. SE DAFUQ of the day is not from chat, but from a main site.
0
Q: Could be a Lovecraft story based on brutal sex and lesbian attitude?

darkgazeSorry about the title. This is just something i´m thinking about very seriously... I've read many Lovecraft stories but my memory is cheating me. I´ve read a short story as it were a Lovecraftian story. There are two girls in the 20's, one of them is provocative, she is so sexy (maybe very near...

Didn't think Yog-Sothoth was into that sort of thing
17:37
Please read and sign this really important petition to the UK govt: https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/45928 #righttotry
^RT'd by @CGPGrey. Figured you guys on the other side of the pond might be interested.
Yay! Got to wield the psuedo-hammer today!
(See SF&F thread above.)
@Iszi For what it's worth, Lovecraft had been raised by quite a puritan mother who considered that there was nothing more rotten or evil than sex. In Lovecraft's stories, when any kind of breeding is involved, it is rarely in a positive way.
@fgysin I work as a penetration tester. I am the .001% of software developers that solve the most difficult security problems that others deem impossible. This would not be the most difficult problem I have solved and I already have a partial solution. Also, Thomas Pornin's answer is awesome. — Rook 55 mins ago
I choose to read this comment as: "I, Rook, am the best developer in the world; and yet I bow before the Bear."
7
17:53
Wow. I thought he'd finally dropped off the site by now.
that'd be boring
@ThomasPornin 1 in 100,000. The population of the US is around 300 million. That means for 3,000 pentesters to exist in this country, everyone must be a software developer.
Now that I've actually read the question (and not just @ThomasPornin's awesome answer), it seems less and less an SE question to me. It's more of a "here's a generic problem - let's fix it" question - a bit too broad and open for this format.
Good morning
@David What's so good about it, and who says it's morning?
18:03
@Iszi well it's not morning here, but it's 6PM I've got a G&T and there's Pizza on the way, so good is pretty much a given :)
@Iszi Well, yes, it is not really a question; it is more the starting point for a discussion thread. Threads do not map well into the Q&A format of SE sites (and, as far as I know, this is intentional).
@RoryMcCune Cue irrational time-zone jealousy here.
@Iszi > "What do you mean?" he said. "Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want not; or that you feel good this morning; or that it is morning to be good on?"
@Iszi It is always good, and PST says its morning
@David I will not refute your latter statement, but cannot support your former categorical assumption.
@ThomasPornin Ok, you've pushed me over the edge - close vote applied.
Wow. Just had an amusing conversation in my head. After hearing my brother is going to be having a child...

First thought: DAFUQ?

Second thought: Well, yes. That would have something to do with it, I'm sure.
18:31
@JeffFerland My $0.02 USD on this:

http://security.stackexchange.com/q/31348/953

It might look a little better to explain why the question is closed, rather than give an answer-as-comment and then close it.
@Iszi I must concur with the honourable @Iszi, may his life be long and prosperous, regardless of his unspecified gender.
@ThomasPornin Hey! My gender is both specified and verified!
@Jeff, your comment-then-close might be seen, in a particular light, as slightly abusive. You know you are technically right, and I know it, but the "public at large" might not be as astute as you and me, especially the individual who was sufficiently unastute to ask this particular question.
@Iszi, @Thomas Thanks guys!
18:49
@ThomasPornin RE: http://security.stackexchange.com/a/31351/953

Could you address the suggestion @CodesInChaos posted in comments - chaining of hashes? I can easily see how it might complicate things over time (and especially after multiple changes of hash mechanisms) but I'm sure there's more depth to it than that if *you've* chosen to omit it from *your* post.
And seriously, why does Markdown just refuse to work on multi-line messages?
Because devops.
@Iszi Not really my field either. Sounds like one of those programmery thing. I try not to pollute myself with such things.
19:21
3
Q: Credit Card Information, what security precautions must be taken?

TylerDWe don't store any credit card information. It is gathered via an HTML form, then processed by a PHP script which uses the API from Intuit to charge the credit card. After calling the API to charge the card, all credit card information is disposed of. Here are my questions regarding the securi...

@Iszi Done.
@ThomasPornin Thanks. Why the requirement of the old hash being "decent enough" though?
Because if it really sucks, it'll produce many collisions on typical passwords, reducing entropy too far.
MD4, MD5 etc. are all "decent enough"
CRC32 isn't
@CodesInChaos Ah, good point there.
Eh, don't want to be quoted out of context ?
19:35
I forgot if dave's hash had some issues beyond being MD5 + silly but harmless changes
@CodesInChaos I think one of the issue was that the code did not compile/run at all.
That can be seen as positive
Ideal solution, I think, would follow the following process:

1. User attempts to log into system.
2. System hashes password+salt with new method, compares to stored hash. If match, permit entry. Else, go to step 3.
3. System hashes password+salt with old method, compares to stored hash. If no match, deny entry. Else, grant entry and go to step 4.
4. System generates newsalt. Hashes password+newsalt with new method, replaces existing stored salt & hash data.
1) You don't need that, if you use a version tag
2) At least for typical web applications you need to upgrade hashes for users who don't log in
since most registered users won't log in any time soon, or perhaps ever
@CodesInChaos Ok, step 2 could be eliminated by that.
19:40
I hate forced password resets, since I might remember the password, but don't have any access to the email anymore
@CodesInChaos That's when you implement account expiration, as suggested in a couple posts in that thread.
You can reset password for old accounts
but as I said, that's annoying
I lost one of my github accs that way
But keeping the old hashes (or any hashes derived from them) as valid poses its own risk.
and I know someone on twitter who will probably lose his twitter account that way
For low value websites I don't care much about that
@CodesInChaos Perhaps, but reasonably-concise answers here can't cover every potential risk profile - they can only really address "best" or "most secure" practices. Otherwise, a lot of questions/answers here would be too broadly-scoped (not that some aren't) for the SE format.
Then again, @ThomasPornin has never really been known for concise answers anyway.
19:58
well I say fairfax
20:34
@AviD If you're still active in Windows Phone, you might want to check out my recent posts. One on meta, one on the main.
 
1 hour later…
21:37
Just noticed "The last message was posted 1 hour ago.". I wonder if that's Chat trying to tell us that it's lonely.
@ScottPack Chat looks like a potato.
22:19
@ThomasPornin Do you consider brute-forcing a hash to fall under cryptanalysis?
Cryptoanalysis of password hashes sounds weird
What does he hope to gain from such spam?
 
1 hour later…
23:37
@JeffFerland It is a bit crude, but I am ready to call it "cryptanalysis" if it makes communication easier. I am not a maniac when it comes to enforcing strict usage of terms which have never been defined with precision.
23:51
Hello @Thomas

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