The DMZ

Fire Quacker

04:09

@forest I only lost 10 rep... I need to write better posts...

A. Hersean

07:54

@forest The best way I guess would be to invite active members on the security.SE that we never saw in the DMZ. Maybe they just don't know what they miss. I'm not sure inviting people inactive on SE would work out.

Rory Alsop

It is one of those eternal challenges - if you clamp down too rigidly on behaviour in chat, nobody will use them, so you need a little leeway - which is why JG and I try to encourage people away from being "edgy" etc. However too much misbehaviour starts to skew the norms, and things escalate until action is taken and the pendulum swings the other way

Which also ruins the experience

That middle ground is not easy

I hope folks don't go, however I get it - I see why it happens. It has happened before. And a new community of chat regulars comes in to fill the space

It's all cycles

kelalaka

12:09

I don't want to lose someone due to political views as long as we are on the justice path not on the fanatic/lunatic path.

A. Hersean

12:30

In fine, he got banned because his values do not align with the values of SE overlords. That's the basis of most conflicts among humans. That's really a shame, because what really matter for humans are not their values, but their needs. It's all pointless, sterile arguing, because people almost never change their minds on values. People just need to accept that others do not share their values.

On a side note, personally I think that's not very inclusive to ban someone because he was not inclusive enough.

Rory Alsop

12:47

@A.Hersean At the extreme, you have en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Journeyman Geek

@A.Hersean On the other hand...

he got suspended for making a transphobic comment, came back and... uh

Well - at some point, asking nicely dosen't help, a slap on the wrist dosen't hurt

so...

We need what I term the very large book.

Rory Alsop

@JourneymanGeek the large book?

Journeyman Geek

There's a reason why I'm like "Guys! Language" or "Guys, That's not ok"

Rory Alsop

Ahh - the Necronomicon?

Journeyman Geek

@RoryAlsop "I'm going to throw a very large book at him"

A. Hersean

13:04

I agree that Mech was "not nice", we had once a discussion on the topic and we agreed to disagree. However I think that SE powers that be were not much better, I also find them prompt to disproportionate measures.

I find Mech's sarcasm OK, even though I do not agree with him.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think that under French law, if the DMZ is considered a public place, Mech's sarcasm would be protected by free speech law and SE found guilty of abuse of power, because Terms & Conditions cannot override the law.

However, it's a moot point, because that's not the law that applies here.

@RoryAlsop As always, its a balance with a fuzzy limit that's hard to agree upon.

Journeyman Geek

@A.Hersean Its a privately owned space

So - I wouldn't quite pull that arguement over "right to free speech"

A. Hersean

@JourneymanGeek But free of access. But again I'm not a lawyer. And "public space" might not have the same definition under French law and US law.

Journeyman Geek

So I guess it breaks down to "Did mech know what he was doing was going to potentially get him in trouble?" and "would a reasonable person consider it ok?"

A. Hersean

Maybe for you. For me the question is "Did Mech hurt someone?".

Journeyman Geek

@A.Hersean could he have?

A. Hersean

13:15

(or could hurt)

Journeyman Geek

By that arguement, we can have floors full of broken glass, and rusty sharp things, until someone gets hurt.

A. Hersean

@JourneymanGeek In the context of his discussions here on the DMZ? I do not think so.

Journeyman Geek

Cause people can walk in, see something that makes them comfortable and walk out.

On RA, I've literally yelled at a regular user for something like that.

And least there, that's... pretty serious

they've listened. And I can expect them to listen. I don't have the same pull here

A. Hersean

There's always a risk. With broken glass it's too high. But do you often see people come here?

Journeyman Geek

but if we're going to wait till someone gets hurt to draw the lines, its too late.

A. Hersean

13:18

On the other hand, if you prevent every risk, you never do anything.

Forget stairs, you could fall.

It's a balance

I argue that SE is too strict.

Journeyman Geek

@A.Hersean If people find it, sure. and people do find it

and yeah, we've had incidents of people being, as you put it "hurt" by things on chat. often resulting in drama.

A. Hersean

It's also cultural. The US like to avoid any risk and is prone to put the blame on those who did not do enough to prevent them. In latin Europe (France, Spain, Italy), the acceptance that maybe a few will get a little bit hurt is higher, so that most can enjoy their live.

You'll get hurt in life. Maybe get into a drama as you put it. So what? C'est la vie.

Journeyman Geek

So, glass shards and spikey things... build charecter?

Oh, I've seen how nasty people can be on the internet.

A. Hersean

@JourneymanGeek There's a difference between "someone was not nice with me" and "someone hurt me so bad I'll get PTSD".

Journeyman Geek

@A.Hersean and its a sliding scale - and people slide across it

A. Hersean

13:29

I agree, you can hurt someone on the net till suicide.

But, where was Mech on this scale?

Journeyman Geek

And we can politely suggest people are crossing the line

@A.Hersean someone clearly judged he went too far.

A. Hersean

That's a fact

Journeyman Geek

More than once.

So, by the same arguement, he was a little hurt, and he's unable to use the site. And his reaction was... to burn it all down?

A. Hersean

Yes, and you think that the line was well placed, when I do not.

Journeyman Geek

I'm saying the line was drawn, and crossed.

A. Hersean

13:31

@JourneymanGeek I'm not talking about his decision to leave. I'm talking about the second ban of one year.

Journeyman Geek

right after a suspension of a month. So, he kinda knew where the line was

A. Hersean

I agree he crossed the line, he knew what he was doing, he can only blame himself. However, I also think that the 2nd ban was to severe.

I think both parties were too extreme.

Journeyman Geek

@A.Hersean he ... got into trouble in roughly... 10 minutes?

obviously enough he caught a CM's attention?

A. Hersean

He was being sarcastic. He needed to express his resentment against SE.

Journeyman Geek

He chose to, and he took the risk

He... choose poorly

A. Hersean

13:34

Again, I agree with you on this point

Journeyman Geek

and as someone who helps tend to this place, I kinda failed to help draw the line before it got crossed.

I'll keep trying of course! I tend to take incidents like this a personal failure.

A. Hersean

I just think that SE's CM took personally his resentment, and judged he was being aggressive against LGBTs, when he was just finding a way to express his frustration against SE. He just needed some space to vent.

Journeyman Geek

@A.Hersean and... this wasn't it?

A. Hersean

?

this wasn't what?

Journeyman Geek

"He just needed space to vent"

And he vented in the same space he got in trouble in to start with?

A. Hersean

13:39

Because that's also the space where people listen to him, on the DMZ.

He couldn't do it elsewhere.

Journeyman Geek

Right. but lets say if you got kicked out of a bar for... I donno, being an angry drunk

A. Hersean

Not with the right people.

Journeyman Geek

and you go back there and.. are an angry drunk

even if everyone ELSE likes you

A. Hersean

@JourneymanGeek But he did not come back like an angry drunk.

It just appeared this way to a CM.

Journeyman Geek

He tried to sneak in the very same sorta thing that got into trouble

A. Hersean

13:41

Again, poor choice of expression from MEch.

Journeyman Geek

I'd point out, this is the guy who snuck in a spongebob squarepants reference into the workplace. He does subtle.

I didn't make the connection to that's why he had been suspended the first time

A. Hersean

@JourneymanGeek No, He got first ban because of intolerance against LGBTs. The second ban was because he was sarcastic. If you did not know the reason for his 1st ban, his new messages would not have been enough to warrant a ban (unless I'm very mistaken).

Journeyman Geek

@A.Hersean Well - about... the very same thing. So.. that kinda shows he didn't quite get the message from the first suspension

or his very first reaction "I'm mad, I'll just... show them who's boss by... making fun of the same thing that got me suspended"

ThoriumBR

let me jump in: SE overreacted and took it personally. Had me or forest or nodoby or caffeine said the same, I would put money on a bet that nothing would happen. So isn't Mech words that were judged, were him himself. He and SE won't get along, and this is what got him banned...

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR You do notice I keep trying to tell you guys when things could get you in trouble right?

A. Hersean

13:46

We know you care for us ^^

ThoriumBR

this wasn't to protect the feelings of an innocent user that get here by chance and gets hurt by words here, it was to made an example... and when someone is made an example, it's always using an overblown reaction

2

Journeyman Geek

(and its often frustrating cause y'all don't listen often ._.)

@ThoriumBR That's been known to happen tho

and worse. PEOPLE TWEET

A. Hersean

@JourneymanGeek You did what you could, and Mech should have listened.

ThoriumBR

we need to be more inclusive, so let's get the ban hammer down hard

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR or realise there's some rules here

ThoriumBR

13:47

so Mech wasn't against the CoC, was against the SE overlords

the rules should be impartial, not "depend on who is saying"

Journeyman Geek

If one of my users was suspended in error, even by a CM, I'll have a word and do what I can.

@ThoriumBR and well - he crossed the line, someone complained, cause there's no chance in hell CMs monitor all of chat, things happened, he crosses it again...

ThoriumBR

but why it feels that the CM cares less about the C and more about the M?

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR I've worked a lot with that lot

they do care a fair bit about the community, and even when they're from outside, they're trying their best to learn

ThoriumBR

does anyone here said "glad Mech is off, he was annoying?"? or the opposite?

A. Hersean

unless a CM did not like Mech much and came back to check on him

ThoriumBR

13:49

I haven't seem anyone commending the ban whatsoever...

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR "it was the right thing, good riddence"

seems the worst thing to say here

almost as bad as 'deal with it'

and since Mech ragequit, I don't think someone having a quiet word is an option

A. Hersean

Saying you find the CoC too strict is a good way to attract the unwanted attention of a CM.

Journeyman Geek

but if y'all want to avoid it, and don't mind someone reminding you when that line is a little too close, a lot of this is avoidable

ThoriumBR

@A.Hersean and what you guys think when someone with a history of depression says "I could at least say goodbye to my friends", deletes his account, deletes his personal site and vanishes?

Rory Alsop

@ThoriumBR the rules are very impartial, but when folks cross the line many many times and get a suspension because they fail to heed the warnings, and then come back from suspension, it's not like the slate is wiped clean. They still have that history, and higher visibility, so they don't get given the leeway to do all those things again

ThoriumBR

13:53

I had to chase any form of contact around the internet, and thank God he mailed me, because I was really worried about him. I don't think whatever he said would be enough to someone get worried about someone else killing himself.

A. Hersean

@ThoriumBR I say that some mods wrote that discussing it was forbidden here, I don't want to get banned for it, and then today I have a lengthy discussion on the topic with a mod.

ThoriumBR

so between "someone got offended" and "someone with depression, possession of firearms and living alone is at danger of killing himself", did SE choose the right thing?

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR so, that gives him a blank cheque to do anything?

ThoriumBR

no, but "lets destroy a community so the community does not harm anyone" is a good thing?

as I said earlier, when no one is talking, there's no problem to solve...

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR Well - no, but if one person leaving (for well, breaking the rules) breaks an entire community, its not really... that solid

ThoriumBR

13:57

ban him twice, ban him twelve times, but an year?

A. Hersean

@JourneymanGeek No, but SE should have taken the time to think about it. Maybe consulting mods that are frequently in the DMZ beforehand. Maybe trying to understand the situation before overreacting?

Journeyman Geek

If I dropped dead tommorrow, the communities I've worked with would manage

@A.Hersean I'm pretty sure that you'd get diametrically different perspectives

ThoriumBR

it's not one person leaving, it's "SE does not care about a community, it cares about the feelings of one anonymous person more than the community"

A. Hersean

@JourneymanGeek That would be an accident, not a choice

Journeyman Geek

and well - as I mentioned, I didn't get the whole picture till I asked

ThoriumBR

13:58

an accident isn't a ban

Journeyman Geek

@A.Hersean or well, if I did something unforgivably bad and had to leave

or heck, I've nearly walked away once or twice

SU and MSE would survive.

ThoriumBR

this don't have to be 4chan, but not the kindergarten chat either...

Journeyman Geek

and lets be honest - if I got suspended for something once, I'd be embarassed as hell.

A. Hersean

If you got kicked when undeserving it, I wouldn't like it.

Journeyman Geek

And I've been told off by TPTB once or twice too

Rory Alsop

14:00

@ThoriumBR but it doesn't do that. If the regulars tolerate too much, that ruins the community. It happened before - pretty much all the regulars left. You folks came in and made the place your own. And in the main, JG and I are very light touch because you generally behave in a way that is not offensive, it's welcoming and friendly

Journeyman Geek

(my fault really - got a little overworked up)

Rory Alsop

But when things cross that line it stops new membersjoining the community

A. Hersean

Lots of people left after the Monica drama. In a sense, SE's community suffered from it.

Rory Alsop

@A.Hersean Oh, absolutely - I left for quite a while, till I saw positive intent and direction

ThoriumBR

and it's better now after the Monica drama? I don't think so...

Rory Alsop

14:01

@ThoriumBR what? Who thinks that?

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR you do realise that most of that was on meta

We got minimal support from the company

Rory Alsop

yeah - it didn't impact most individual sites or chat

ThoriumBR

and Meta lost a lot of people that had contributed for years

Rory Alsop

@ThoriumBR yup

Journeyman Geek

I quit as a meta mod, came back cause people asked, basically handled... most of that with my team with almost NO company support, lost ... most of a skeletonal CM crew...

so .. I kinda am familiar with all the detals of how the company failed the community through most of that.

things did get better

ThoriumBR

14:03

a lot of experience, a lot of ideas, a lot of history... diversity was lost, because most of people that sided with Monica left... and the pendulum swing all way to the other side

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR Not all the good folks left

ThoriumBR

not all, but a lot left

Journeyman Geek

and quite a few of the people we ended up suspending were not nice.

And I think i did more suspensions during that period than I did as a SU mod, not counting spammers.

A. Hersean

Personally, I reduced my involvement in SE. I'm still less involved now than before.

Rory Alsop

@ThoriumBR so there you are far over-exaggerating. And the pendulum has not swung to the other side - in fact things like the CoC have helped make things more supportive for minorities and diverse groups

Journeyman Geek

14:04

(and lets be honest here, I could probably have wandered over to one of the offshoots, and did the same I've done here in a few years)

Rory Alsop

We lost a lot of good folks, yes. Some came back. We gained some others. We lost some less good folks. Which I'm happy about

Journeyman Geek

and well, the scars heal, communities slowly colase if its a place people want to be

If I ever (and I'm still iffy over if this will happen) got hired as a CM, I still have contacts in the 'old' DMZ bunch and Server fault (both of which have had a lot of good folks wander off) who I'd like to see back here.

Rory Alsop

@JourneymanGeek absolutely

ThoriumBR

or become like the serverfault chat room...
**5 days later…**

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR snort

That is something I'd love to fix as a CM :D

But as I said, seems unlikely they'd hire me

ThoriumBR

14:08

if you want to bring back people, bringing a hammer won't help

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR snort there's a value to a familiar face, so to speak

and listening to folks, and these are very insular communities

ThoriumBR

you know when you play LoL and your team want to surrender, and you have to vote? if the decision to ban was sent to people on the room to anonymously vote, and 50% vote to ban, I would agree and think it was proportional...

Journeyman Geek

I've seen somewhere that uses that system

ThoriumBR

but I don't like that much when a ban comes from way above followed by "trust us"

Journeyman Geek

it dosen't work that great

Also, I can imagine certain people would go "I'll get a few friends" and hedge that vote

ThoriumBR

14:11

and the mood on this room shows the current model isn't working that great either

and I can imagine lots and lots of scenarios for any proposed solution too...

we could bring lots of friends, vote one of us to be a mod, and override when some regular user says "I am offended"

or bribe a CM to turn a blind eye

Journeyman Geek

I don't think anyone's tried bribing a CM

Rory Alsop

@ThoriumBR Look at it from the perspective of someone in a group that Mech was offensive about. Quite a few of the folks in here have said they didn't think it was offensive, so obviously they would vote to retain him.

Journeyman Geek

or frauding an election

ThoriumBR

ban him there, not here... or anyone here was offended by him?

@JourneymanGeek we are in Security... we know better than any other forum how to fraud an electronic election... putting a sock puppet as a mod isn't something outside of reach of us if we really want to.

if it only takes votes, we can produce a myriad of votes

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR this I'd like to see.

@ThoriumBR from users with a minimum amount of rep

ThoriumBR

14:16

fighting bot armies is something some of us do for a living, so we have pretty good understanding on how to detect bots and what bots can do that we cannot see

Journeyman Geek

(and I like how the solution here isn't "maybe look at how we do things and communicate" and "Lets get our own mod, with blackjack and hookers")

ThoriumBR

that's the point I am making... replacing the mods isn't a solution, but the current modding mood isn't a solution for an inclusive, diverse and healthy community either

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR at a micro level, here that is, we need to be able to communicate what those lines to keep this place on an even keel is

So - how do we keep y'all out of trouble?

ThoriumBR

the easiest way is to close the door...

no more trouble, no modding needed

Journeyman Geek

Not an option with our current model

I'm not sure anyone would be happy with losing chat, and it seems an overreaction

ThoriumBR

14:19

or be a mod-heavy community, so even with the doors wide open nobody stops and sits

or reduce the max ban duration... one year is way too much. a week is enough. if any troll gets banned for a week after 10 minutes active EVERY TIME, he will lose interest gradually

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR hah

I've had to suspend a troll repeatedly over the course of months or years. An year each time, with multiple accounts.

ThoriumBR

so you understood that a ban isn't a solution

Journeyman Geek

Its a standard escalation for most part, unless its like "I don't want to suspend him for a year for something unrelated"

@ThoriumBR on the contrary, trolls do not lose interest or change magically

On the other hand

i've seen someone escalate herself to a 20 year suspension

have a word with the folks at the company, and sorted it out

came back.. and was actually a reasonably good mod

ThoriumBR

like if a 20 year ban would stop anyone

Journeyman Geek

a little too soft hearted, but she learnt

ThoriumBR

14:24

the accounts are free, emails are free...

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR she had a willingness to look at what was wrong, and did a lot better

ThoriumBR

have to hop out to a meeting... bottom line, I disagree with the modding activity here, but it's not my room...

you mods do what you think it's best or what you are told to do, sometimes you don't have a choice either

Journeyman Geek

Oh I have choices

ThoriumBR

CoC wording is too "fluid" and makes room for alternative interpretations depending on who is reading

Journeyman Geek

Well "be nice" is simpler. But people had to argue over what "nice" is

ThoriumBR

14:28

@JourneymanGeek really? If a CM says that if you vote to not ban someone you are undermining your chances to become a CM, will you really vote as you want?

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR Oh, I'd still do the right thing

cause I'd be worthless if I hadn't

ThoriumBR

I would like to see you mods as our team leaders, not as our overseers...

I don't see that

Journeyman Geek

(Also, I find that question amusing cause of all the stuff I've done over the years as a MSE mod cause 'it was the right thing' and my history of applying to SE)

@ThoriumBR I'd happily yell at a CM, politely, if I felt they were out of line.

Fire Quacker

@JourneymanGeek Um... she also ragequit after about a year of modding didn't she?

Journeyman Geek

I actually have it in black and white that I'm allowed

@FireQuacker well - she had other priorities as I understand

ThoriumBR

14:32

so I thank you guys for the work until now, but I cannot thank for this last incident

Journeyman Geek

@FireQuacker she was a joy to work with for most parts - I hang out on Pets, much like i hang out here

Fire Quacker

Yeah, she was (probably still is) a very nice person

Journeyman Geek

Yup

nobody

15:00

@belkarx The room you invited me to is... empty :)

@RoryAlsop Who said that?

Nobody complained about the first suspension (except for the part that he was banned on site too)

The thing that pisses me off is this time they suspended him for putting a flag as his profile picture...

Like, seriously, if someone joins this room and sees a user with a rainbow flag, how on earth are they getting offended by that?

ThoriumBR

yep, that's exact my thoughts too... anyone that knows Mech know he is joking and won't be offended, anyone that does not know him won't know he is joking and won't be offended. so what's the point? he didn't offended anyone here, he offended SE mods...

2

and I am complaining that one year suspension for that is too heavy handed

nobody

@ThoriumBR and I am complaining that any suspension here is heavy handed. I don't see any rule in the CoC that says you have to agree with CMs or mods all the time

ThoriumBR

yep... heck, we even have "moderate-anarchism" as a room tag!

nobody

:D

ThoriumBR

how do we have proper anarchism (even moderate) if the government controls what we say? /joke

Journeyman Geek

15:16

AH, so what you want is a anarchosyndicalist commune where people take turns to hold executive power?

I could change that to "Polite-sensible-anarchism-in-moderation" ....

ThoriumBR

I don't thought enough about what I am about to write, so take it with a truckload of salt>
I believe maximizing the utility for the most of people would be better. if one action pleases 2 and displeases 10, that decision is wrong

yep, I know it leads to minorities being misrepresented, and that's why the truckload of salt

but I believe banning Mech solved a problem nobody here have... or I am wrong?

(and maybe I will disagree with myself down the road...)

Journeyman Geek

Entirely possible

ThoriumBR

so how do we protect the community from the over-sensitive ones? or we don't?

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR See - that immediately assumes that members in the community are always right

A lot of it breaks down to "what's a fair social contract between folks here"

and that's not always "I can do whatever I want, cause free speech, and no one should do anything"

ThoriumBR

so a vegan comes by and feels offended because someone told us about the bbq he will have after a long work week, and what SE will do? a minority offended is enough to make "law" something sensitive for a group but harmless to the majority?

Journeyman Geek

15:24

lol

I'm vegitarian

ThoriumBR

@JourneymanGeek who knows what is better for a community? itself or outsiders?

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR as a mod - there's been situations where I've been too close to the problem

ThoriumBR

@JourneymanGeek me too, and I couldn't care less about what anyone would say or post about bbq or anything related

Journeyman Geek

We deal with the ground level stuff, but trying to go "us vs them" is rarely helpful

@ThoriumBR and in a well organised community, if a regular felt he was uncomfortable with a topic, or suggested certain things not be discussed, or certain types of language not be used, it would be respected

If its an outsider - its worth listening to them

ThoriumBR

@JourneymanGeek but that was exact what happened... "one of us" was punished "by one of them" for something that no one here agrees was grounds for punishment

Journeyman Geek

15:27

@ThoriumBR No, one of 'us' kinda acted in a way that got him in trouble.

There's a difference

ThoriumBR

and wasn't the community that behaved in the "us vs them"-way

so for protect us from ourselves, one of us is cut from the community, even if nobody here asked for that

Journeyman Geek

Well - I'm not sure what we could have done better when he'd changed his ava to reference what got him suspended, pointed it out obviously...

ThoriumBR

put himself in trouble on the eyes of whom? us?

Journeyman Geek

Well he did get suspended.

so.. uh

maybe a LITTLE more circumspection?

ThoriumBR

@JourneymanGeek and I am pretty sure changing his avatar and even joking about it isn't motive for one year suspension...

Journeyman Geek

15:29

@ThoriumBR consider what he got suspended for.

consider the Ava. I mean. uh

Could he have done something... a little differently?

So yeah, he basically pulled the tail of the dog that bit him

then got bitten again

ThoriumBR

so the problem is the dog...

Journeyman Geek

No blame for the person who yanked on the tail?

twice?

I mean, if Mech wanted to straighten things out - I'd do what I could

but I don't really see that either

Its not what folks want to hear bit - ehhhh...

nobody

@JourneymanGeek He yanked once. The second time, he just made a subtle reference to having yanked the tail. He didn't actually yank it.

ThoriumBR

I don't like when the mods behave like the immune system on auto-immune diseases... something that is not really a problem gets fiercely combated that drains all energy for nothing

Journeyman Geek

@nobody well at least touched it

@ThoriumBR only if you let it

There's nothing to do here if he quit over that. Could we have asked to mitigate the suspension? Probably - I'm not sure if that was done

Would it have happened again if we had? I don't know, but I'd hope not

Could we do better? I don't know but we can try

But I don't really think anyone (myself included) should really get a free pass on stuff like that.

nobody

15:36

@JourneymanGeek No he didn't. He just referred to the tail

Journeyman Geek

@nobody ah, I think we have a disagreement here

nobody

@JourneymanGeek I am acutely aware of that...

Journeyman Geek

If he hadn't changed his ava to that.. would these events have happened?

nobody

No, but they shouldn't have happened regardless.

Journeyman Geek

@nobody eh, if you want zero moderation, that's hard

Whether its what we do, and trying to keep y'all out of trouble

or people getting in trouble

ThoriumBR

15:39

@JourneymanGeek stuff like complaining about a suspension?

Journeyman Geek

So, If y'all think he did no wrong, and do similar things, well, we can't help

nobody

I don't want 0 moderation. I'm just saying changing your avatar to something that isn't obviously offensive isn't something that should be moderated

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR No one's been kicked, suspended or otherwise threatened.

so... I'm confused.

@nobody so change it to a stick guy in a hat. Or a Dog.

ThoriumBR

@JourneymanGeek ...

@JourneymanGeek you got me confused now...

Journeyman Geek

@ThoriumBR y'all are discussing it

and there's no negative moderation about it for most part?

nobody

15:41

@JourneymanGeek I don't understand your insistence he did something wrong. If someone random changed his ava to a rainbow flag, they would absolutely not get suspended

ThoriumBR

@JourneymanGeek that's the point... the problem wasn't changing the avatar, was Mech changing the avatar. so something is deeply offensive warranting one year suspension if someone does it, but absolutely nothing if someone else does exact the same thing.

Journeyman Geek

Y'all are ignoring what caused the first one

ThoriumBR

it's a non sequitur, or ad hominem...

the problem is the second one, not the first

nobody

@JourneymanGeek Nobody complained about the first one...

Journeyman Geek

@nobody and the two are related.

ThoriumBR

15:44

no, they are independent things...

Journeyman Geek

Incorrect - unless he did something else worth a suspension...

did he?

nobody

@JourneymanGeek No.

Journeyman Geek

Well then

A. Hersean

Not that I know of.

Journeyman Geek

So - if y'all hear from mech, and he's actually sorry about all this, and wants a do over. And he does it the right way (the contact us link) - I'm sure we could get a lot of this sorted out.

but that also means, well accepting some things don't fly here

A. Hersean

15:47

Yeah... did you notice he ragequit?

Journeyman Geek

and caused maximum drama in the process

got y'all worked up too

So yeah, I quite totally noticed that

nobody

@JourneymanGeek Can you prove he didn't change his ava to show that he was sorry in the first place?

Journeyman Geek

@nobody Do I need to?

A. Hersean

I meant: your suggestion will never happen and you know it.

Journeyman Geek

@A.Hersean Its happened before

nobody

15:49

@JourneymanGeek Not you, but I would say the person who suspended him should have to

Journeyman Geek

with far more problematic users as I mentioned

@nobody yes. But I suggested this. So if whoever suspended me asked, I'd say "Its worth a try"

Once

I mean, if he comes back and it happens again, I'll be... disappointed.

ThoriumBR

disappointment is a common sentiment around here recently

Journeyman Geek

People do that a lot. I manage.

Rory Alsop

16:50

@nobody As I have mentioned a number of times, none of this happens because of "just once" - it's a longer term pattern of behaviour that leads to this. Multiple short suspensions from chat because of multiple infractions. Continually trying to go beyond the boundaries. And then when things get to longer term suspensions, the next step after a month is a year

2

Again, I'm not saying it's right or wrong - not my decision. But I do want folks to stop thinking that one little thing gets a big suspension

CaffeineAddiction

17:50

@JourneymanGeek wat? ref?

CaffeineAddiction

18:01

> Lots of people left after the Monica drama.
Monica drama? another member here that I missed?

Fire Quacker

41

Q: How to deal with apathetic co-worker?

I work in gastronomy in a rather small restaurant. The co-worker I spend most of my work-day around has become more and more apathetic over the past few months. It was a very gradual change, so I am uncertain if it has to do with a specific event. I generally enjoy my job and try to be in a good...

133

Q: Who or what is Monica and why so much notice from SE users?

I see more and more users putting profile names related to "Monica". Is there an official post of what is all this movement around "Monica"?

discussion stack-exchange community

ThoriumBR

18:23

509

Q: Stack Overflow Inc., sinat chinam, and the goat for Azazel

On Friday, half an hour before Shabbat and two days before Rosh Hashana, Stack Overflow Inc. suddenly revoked my moderator status on all sites where I had it. I found this out while handling flags, when I suddenly got notifications for Marshal and Deputy badges (which moderators are ineligible t...

discussion moderators

forest

21:04

@JourneymanGeek He deleted his account. Isn't that irreversible?

Also wow this is a long scroll log.

forest

21:33

I wonder why the designers of E0 made it the way they did...

I mean, I get why they used LFSRs, but what considerations did they put into the FSM?

kelalaka

@forest E0 is used in Bluetooth so LFSRs are cheap in hardware that can reduce the power consumption.

forest

@kelalaka I get why they chose LFSRs, but I don't get why they made the FSM the way they did.

After all, Trivium (which uses NLFSRs) is more secure, and just as light.

Why not something based on, say, an ASG? Or shrinking generator?

kelalaka

E0 is way older then those and clock controlled is hard to analyze.

forest

True. But existing constructions are even older (1987, apparently). The only problem with an ASG that I know of is that it requires fairly large keys to obtain good security, but that could be solved pretty easily.

Oh, it was patented in 1989. Maybe the patent was still in effect then.

kelalaka

I think it is common to write a new one...

forest

21:40

NIH syndrome. :P

At least E0 (two-level E0, rather) isn't as bad as A5/1.

kelalaka

Well, A5/1 is not broken in one day. They used some genius ideas to break it. As a design it is not bad, however, weaknesses are found to break in real-time. If you increase the key size, can you break A5' in real time?

Also, people tend not to put all eggs into one basket.

forest

I thought A5/1's weaknesses were independent of key size?

The newer attacks (found in 2018 or whenever, which were I think known-plaintext attacks?).

kelalaka

I'm not aware of that paper.

forest

I might be misremembering. There was a DEF CON talk about it a while back.

CaffeineAddiction

22:28

@forest yah, long long scroll

still not sure what was said a month ago to kick it all off, but imo dead horse is dead now

forest

@CaffeineAddiction tl;dr Mech used a transphobic slur and got banned. He came back and sarcastically pretended he had done a 180 and supports trans-rights. He then got banned for a year (unjustified, imho), and deleted his account in protest. That's about it.

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