The DMZ

daya

03:28

@J.J Same here (2k Points), can we form a team then?

My Statistics: i.sstatic.net/DbdHC.png

Yours?

MechMK1

08:04

good morning, hackers and hackresses

MechMK1

08:43

@AndrolGenhald SE, Inc. does not give a damn about the mods or the userbase

MechMK1

08:54

I seriously feel sad and angry when I read about how SE, Inc. treats people. I've written before about how I oppose several policies made by SE, and gave clear reasons why I believe that they would harm the community as a whole.

I specifically oppose the "Be nice" policy, not because I enjoy hurting other people, but because it is interpreted in such a way that makes moderation impossible. You see the 378th question titled "How do i ad to a array?". Flagging it as duplicate is "a bad newcomer experience" and thus not nice. Downvoting it, since no effort was put in, is not nice. Linking to idownvotedbecau.se is not nice, even though it saves people who moderate the site a ton of work of repeating themselves.

22

A: How is the CoC about to change?

Caleb posted the following to Christianity.SE's meta (excerpted): Personally I have yet to face the specific issue [pronouns], nobody to my knowledge has taken offense at the pronouns I used for them. But the "law" laid down quite suddenly and directly to moderators by several staff members w...

SE, Inc. says you have to go by people's request to use their "preferred" pronouns, even though it goes against your political, religious and moral views. Before, you could at least choose to cease interaction, citing "If you have nothing nice to say, it's better to say nothing at all", but with the new CoC changes, this is considered "discrimination" and abuse.

I have yet to see SE, Inc.'s CMs tell people who demand their xir/xif/xæ pronouns being used that they need to respect other people's personal beliefs and convictions.

SE is turning into a massive shitshow and I feel like I am about to lose a community that I hold dear to my heart, for the sake of appeasing faceless 1-rep users, who ask shitty, no-effort questions, and never contribute anything else to the site.

Journeyman Geek

@MechMK1 Be nice works very well

Be nice is literally what served us well for the better part of a decade

MechMK1

@JourneymanGeek I don't have a problem with being nice to people. I have a problem with how "be nice" is being interpreted.

Hold on, let me get an example

-1

A: Is Spyzie a scam that allows people to pull data from iCloud?

Spyzie is a Chinese key logger and has the ability to access all of your data if it is installed on a given device. If you have a banking application on your phone they could even access your accounts if you do not have two factor verification enabled. The worst part about Spyzie is they are base...

Look at the discussion I had with this guy. He was clearly new, and considered this answer more as a rant against a company that possibly scammed him.

I tried my very best to stay factual and help him improve and possibly become a more active contributor on the site. So far, this has not happened yet

I have no problem if "be nice" is interpreted as "Don't insult people" or similar

But when using moderation tools (closing as dupe, downvoting, editing, etc.) can be considered "not nice", then I have a really big problem.

Journeyman Geek

09:12

With something like that I'd just downvote

MechMK1

Well, I tried to engage, help the guy understand why accusatory posts are not in line with what (my interpretation of what) Stack Exchange is supposed to be, and had hoped it would help him get accustomed to what we do

Journeyman Geek

And well there's a lot of things you can do

And if you couldn't. You couldn't

Even as an experienced user and a mod I have lots of situations where I can't get through to someone

MechMK1

Yes, and that's okay. Not everybody who uses SE actually wants to contribute actively to the site

Journeyman Geek

But that's not a reason be nice would be a problem

MechMK1

I do my best to contribute in many ways, be it asking and answering questions, reviewing posts, editing posts, etc...

Journeyman Geek

09:17

Yup

MechMK1

My objections to "Be nice" are several

The first is, that it's not immediately clear what is "Nice" and what is "Not nice"

Some points are clear, such as no harassment, no bigotry, no insults, etc...

But it's not clear with things like downvoting, closing as duplicate, editing posts, etc...

As I said before, when I began contributing to Stack Overflow, I asked terrible questions. And 2 minutes after my question was posted, some 100k user has edited it. It felt a bit hurtful to me, like was my question not good enough for you?

In hindsight, it wasn't good enough, and the edit added value to it. Value that that user did not get any reward from, in any way. They took their own time, and spent it on editing my shitty question, instead of spending it doing something that is actually fun.

It's the same with questions closed as duplicates. Just recently, a question of mine got closed as duplicate, even though I used the search feature quite extensively to make sure it was not a dupe. It still hurts, it feels like I failed and that I annoyed the people who flagged it as dupe.

But I know it's not. It's necessary, to stop the flood of questions coming in every single day, and to make sure that new and unique questions get more visibility.

But what if my purely emotional response to those two events were to fall under the "Be nice!" umbrella? What if those actions, that actually benefited the site and me as a contributor specifically, were considered "Not nice!" and actively discouraged?

Journeyman Geek

@MechMK1 oh that's the COC

So, honestly

I kinda don't ever remember what's there

I try, very hard to just treat people with the respect the deserve

And occationally don't deserve too

MechMK1

@JourneymanGeek It's also for SE: meta.stackexchange.com/conduct

Journeyman Geek

Decapitalised o for clarity

But I literally don't remember any of that

MechMK1

And I agree with treating people respectfully! But who defines what is respectful? What about my two examples, which very well could be interpreted as "making a new user feel bad and unwelcome"?

Journeyman Geek

09:26

@MechMK1 Well good question

I guess it comes down to the social contract

And well

that's hard

MechMK1

And this is precisely why I oppose the "Be nice" policy, as it doesn't list exhaustively what is and is not okay. Unless that small table with 4 entries is exhaustive.

@JourneymanGeek Yes, absolutely, as I am sure every single user of SE has a slightly different interpretation of what is acceptable and what is not; what is "nice" and what is not.

I, for example, have no problem with people criticizing my questions and answers. If I answered and someone commented "That's completely wrong! How did you come up with something that was so far from reality?", I would not feel hurt, because it criticizes my answer, not me as a person, even if it is in unfriendly language. Somebody with different personality may consider this as "very unfriendly" and borderline abusive. You never know who is on the other side of the screen.

I know that not every person is like me, and so I try to preemptively address things people may take offense from.

MechMK1

12:09

@JourneymanGeek Can you please explain to me why I have just been suspended from the Tavern?

Journeyman Geek

@MechMK1 I'm not a mod there any more

MechMK1

Supposedly for posting "inappropriate content"

Journeyman Geek

So no idea

MechMK1

What for? For saying I listen to metal?

What a joke, seriously

Journeyman Geek

I literally have no idea

MechMK1

12:11

I understand

I mean, I don't understand

because there was literally no explanation given

I'll just wait 22 minutes and then ask

MechMK1

12:44

What a joke

What a damn joke

I just want to leave Stack Exchange behind and never come back

It has become such a toxic place

M'vy

Yeah, I read some of that

MechMK1

No seriously, this is my last day here.

I am sad that @forest isn't here anymore, because I considered him a good friend

I wanted to say good bye to him

I wanted to say goodbye to everybody here

But then again, who am I? I'm not a big player, I'm not a "core user" of the site, just some random shitposter

I just feel hurt, and I know if I don't leave I will be forced to leave

Conor Mancone

13:04

@MechMK1 What site is the tavern on?

Sorry :( You're obviously not the only one who is unhappy with the changes SO has been making

MechMK1

@ConorMancone Tavern is Meta.SE

It's not just that. The straw that breaks the camel's back is the fact that I posted a speculation, it got moved to "the trash" and someone explained to me that speculations are not welcome. I wrote "I understand, won't happen again" and 20 minutes later I got suspended for that

Like what the actual fuck?

"Hey, can you not do that please?"
"Sure, no problem. I'm sorry"
`/ban MechMK1`

Conor Mancone

I suspect it's going to be time for me to leave soon too. You're hardly a shitposter though. forest was obviously a bit too "rough" around the edges to be allowed to stick around with the new image SE is trying to create. I don't say that to be at all critical of him: I liked him, and he had some insightful critiques of my answers that greatly improved them and me

MechMK1

Absolutely

Conor Mancone

He was perfectly reasonable. I think the new standards aren't.

MechMK1

@ConorMancone That's exactly my thoughts

If SE doesn't value me, I see no reason in providing value for SE

Anonymous

13:10

@MechMK1 Did Forest leave this site? :(

MechMK1

Seems like it. He's MIA at least

I'll be gone too in 2 hours and 20 minutes

Anonymous

Last seen Sep 18 :(

Conor Mancone

@MechMK1 Just curious, why 2h20m?

MechMK1

That's when my time at work is done and I am going home :D

Conor Mancone

These kinds of comments are always a bad sign (from the tavern)

so yea don't even get close to the line

HamZa

13:11

@daya nope

Conor Mancone

:) that's what I figured

Anonymous

HamZa :o

MechMK1

"Don't do anything that could be considered by anyone ever in any way?"

Anonymous

Long time no see sir.

MechMK1

What fucking bullshit

HamZa

13:12

@J.J yeah, kinda off the online-social-network lately

Anonymous

@HamZa I think that's the same for pretty much everyone.

Anonymous

Not seen you, Tom, Armin or Benoit for a really long time.

HamZa

@daya you stuck at a challenge or ?

MechMK1

This year I didn't lose one but two communities of dear friends

One in march, one in october

I am so sad beyond description

Anonymous

@HamZa I think he wanted someone to team up with.

daya

13:15

@HamZa I understand, it is just too basic. right?

HamZa

@daya that but most importantly too many stuff to do in real life :P

Anonymous

@MechMK1 This can be summed up by a quote from Report of The Week - "My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined".

Anonymous

Sorry to make a "joke" but I cannot get that quote out of my head so I had to say it.

HamZa

@MechMK1 care to explain more?

MechMK1

@J.J It's a funny one

Anonymous

13:16

Yeah I love that line lmfao

MechMK1

@HamZa The meme site i used to be active on died in march

Conor Mancone

I didn't realize stackoverflow has never been profitable (although I'm not surprised - that's pretty common for tech ventures these days)

Anonymous

Never seen a guy so passionate over fast food.

MechMK1

Everybody was banned from posting there

HamZa

@MechMK1 lolwut

MechMK1

13:17

I don't want to mention the name of the site, as it was very, very dark humor

daya

@HamZa Not specifically on challenge but there were some forensics challenges which I think are easy but I am just not able to solve lol

HamZa

don't let your memess be dreams

daya

@HamZa Right

MechMK1

My memes were really really not a good fit for what SE considers "acceptable"

Anonymous

Let's be honest, most, if not all Internet communities end up in being a total waste of time.

MechMK1

13:18

My memes would be illegal in my country.

Literally illegal. I could go to prison for them. I don't care

I meme because I am a child of the internet. Nothing is sacred.

HamZa

how old r u again?

MechMK1

25

I discovered 4chan way too early and it probably ruined everything

daya

@J.J Yeah prevoiusly I was, but now, I am not think about that

MechMK1

I don't even know how long Hiddenlol lasted. Two years maybe? It was a good time. Spicy memes and very right-wing content. And then, poof, one day it was taken from me. I miss them

Yes, they were probably terrible people, but they were as much social outcasts as I am.

HamZa

@MechMK1 you've probablly heard this a zillion times: get a life

daya

13:27

@MechMK1 I am sad too because he had helped me and many people here several times :(

HamZa

more social/ real human contact

MechMK1

There is no life for me anymore. I'm 25, no social framework, nothing

My only real human contact is my girlfriend who lives with me, and my mother, who helps me with groceries at times.

HamZa

argh get some therapy or whatever

MechMK1

I know, seeing people like me isn't nice. I'm sorry

At least I have a job since last december

Which is nice

I wonder what people like me did before the internet

Conor Mancone

Last I saw workplaces is officially moderator-less.... seems dangerous...

Especially with so many disgruntled people around... how fast can the community by itself take care of excessive spam postings? A very different kind of security issue...

HamZa

13:30

nah, i'm just telling you get out of that shitty zone
little by little
i'm afraid it will affect your RS with your GF

and ultimately on YOU

MechMK1

My relationship is already terrible. My girlfriend has psychological problems, and she depends fully on me. I spend 8 hours a day sleeping, 8 hours a day working, and the final 8 hours helping her feel better. I am not a person on my own anymore, I just live for other people.

Literally the only hobby I have time for is painting warhammer 40k miniatures for about 15 minutes every day

HamZa

ask yourself this: if your mom went away (which will eventually happen)
or your GF breaks up with you (i'm guessing a very high chance unless she's unstable too)
how will your life look like?
my point is that your "mental state" should ideally not be dependable on mom/gf

MechMK1

@HamZa I am not depending on my girlfriend, she is depending on me

HamZa

you're both depending on each other

MechMK1

If we were to break up, only one of us will be able to sustain themselves.

I have a job, she does not.

I have an apartment, she does not.

I have a finished education, she does not.

I understand that

But I would prefer to not speak as much of my own psychological problems

I know my life is trash, and that won't change in the next years

Conor Mancone

13:36

@MechMK1 It sounds like you are well on your way to a full blown existential crisis. I did those in my late teens and early 20s.

HamZa

i recommend this book "no more mr nice guy" although i'm throwing it out there with not much context, small book, quick to read through

MechMK1

@ConorMancone Basically, yes.

Well, I'll quickly take a break. I'll be back in 5 minutes

Conor Mancone

I wouldn't worry too much though - you're still very young (coming from someone who is only 35 years old). I was just starting to figure things out in my mid 20s

HamZa

he is in his mid 20s, and if he thinks that this situation can only get worse, then he's kinda doomed aka "self fulfilling prophecy"

Anonymous

Meanwhile I'm just really obsessed with listening to Cigarettes After Sex.

Anonymous

13:39

/shrug

Conor Mancone

Probably not helpful, but I only ever see two options: either God exists and we are His creation, with all the corresponding benefits and requirements, OR God doesn't exist and life is short, so do whatever brings you some enjoyment. Personally I suggest the God/Jesus route

Anonymous

Oh my, now @Anders is here - what is happening today? Everyone is coming online >.<

Anonymous

We just need Tom to get this party going now :D

MechMK1

@ConorMancone Same. It's just that I feel like I have taken on responsibilities I can't shake off anymore

I feel my life has been decided already

Vipul Nair

@MechMK1 try meditation

MechMK1

13:48

@VipulNair I don't see how meditating can help me in a situation where someone depends so much on me that without my constant help and attention they would likely end up homeless

But anyways, I feel like I am myself getting a bit toxic. I'm sorry

Vipul Nair

A abusive relationship will eventually take it toll on you.Meditation might give you self reflection and balls to get over her.

MechMK1

@VipulNair My problem isn't "getting over her". My problem is that without me, she has no home, no income, no skills, no family. Nothing.

If I break up, I would quite literally take away everything she has, save for the clothes she is wearing.

Vipul Nair

Break up and slowly give her time to get back on her feet.If she doesnt atleast you tried

Help her to get some skills and job.

MechMK1

@VipulNair Where would she sleep? What would she eat?

Those are not hypothetical questions, I am serious about this.

Vipul Nair

Be a friend to her.

Anonymous

13:53

@MechMK1 No offence but sounds like she needs a friend more than a boyfriend.

Vipul Nair

Do those things until she gets skills and a paying job

Anonymous

Along with counselling until she's well enough to work.

MechMK1

@J.J What she needs is a job and responsibilities

@VipulNair What if I told you that this is literally the situation I am in right now?

That's why I said, without me her whole life would break apart

Vipul Nair

@MechMK1 you need to end it romantically and then help her out that is if she does need help.If you keep the romantic part the things will stay the same

M'vy

I'm not gonna pretend to give any advice of any kind, but just food for thought, what happens the day you just make a full blown burnout and end up not able to help her anymore? Not that I wish you any of this of course, but you can't handle this all on your own. For both your sake, I'd strongly suggest you get someone on-board to help.

MechMK1

13:57

@M'vy That's what I asked her 3 days ago

I said "What if I have a car accident tomorrow? What will you do? Where will you sleep? What will you eat?"

Conor Mancone

@MechMK1 This is not an attempt to give you advice, because doing so in such situations is very difficult. Rather, I'm just trying to give you some food for thought

My wife and I have talked about situations like this a lot because it happens, especially, between kids and adults

we have many family members who have been in a place where one family member became completely dependent upon another

MechMK1

@ConorMancone I know the situation is difficult, and I know everyone involved here wants to help

Anonymous

@MechMK1 if you think that's what she needs make her get a job and start paying rent.

Anonymous

That's a start.

Anonymous

Idk your situation but

Anonymous

13:58

I cant tell if she's mentally unwell

Anonymous

Or just lazy

Anonymous

Its not clear.

Conor Mancone

Unfortunately, it often reaches a point where the only option is "tough love".

Anonymous

^

MechMK1

@J.J I would say her history of parental abuse since early childhood certainly didn't help

Conor Mancone

13:59

That never helps

MechMK1

Her parents once "forgot" her on the beach when she was a young kid

They frequently left her alone for days on end

Conor Mancone

In some cases though, it can reach a point where continuing to help someone only hurts them more in the long run, because it allows them to continue depending on others instead of changing themselves

MechMK1

@ConorMancone That's what I was afraid of

Deep inside me I want to help her. I want to live with her.

Because I truly love her

But I feel like she hurts me so much every day without even realizing it, despite me telling her that she does

Conor Mancone

The problem (and why I'm not trying to give advice) is that I don't know either of you, but I certainly don't know enough about her to make any guess at what would work best

Vipul Nair

not everyone can be saved my friend.sadly

M'vy

14:01

You need an independent party to help you here. Seek counseling.

MechMK1

@ConorMancone I understand that. I certainly appreciate the effort though

@M'vy I want that, trust me. I suggested it several times, but she refused so far, citing that "she's not insane".

I personally made progress insofar that I came to terms that I can break up with her if I personally can't deal with it anymore.

I don't know when that point comes, but Potter Steward said it best: I know it when I see it.

Conor Mancone

anyway, my tests finished running so now I need to get back to work

MechMK1

@ConorMancone Good luck, my friend.

I will miss you

Conor Mancone

It's been fun, and as all things, too short!

Best of luck to you

MechMK1

Thank you, my friend

M'vy

14:06

Yeah, no one here is qualified to tell you what to do. Just keep in mind you also have to look out for yourself.

MechMK1

@M'vy I will, no worries. I hope things will go well

Anders

15:01

@J.J ...and just when you said I was here, I left! I have bad timing.

Anonymous

@Anders Haha, I'm still here all good :D

Anonymous

I've not seen so many people in here in a really long time!

Anonymous

I wondered what happened.

Anders

15:17

@J.J I don't know, maybe all the SE drama. Or people are just longing for "a serious place where infosec is duscissed".

Which you know totally describe us. :-)

Anonymous

Hahahha :D

M'vy

It does not say infosec is seriously discussed though

MechMK1

15:50

Anyways, I'll be off then.

Everybody, I wish you a good day. I hope things go well for you. I will miss you all.

MechMK1, signing off.

M'vy

Too you too @MechMK1

Be safe

Rory Alsop

17:35

35

A: Firing mods and forced relicensing: is Stack Exchange still interested in cooperating with the community?

tl;dr - I mod 6 sites: Security, Music, Parenting, Outdoors, Sound and Video - I'm suspending all my mod activity on them until SE sort this out. I am just one voice among many, but I hope I add to the clamour. I have been hovering in TL hoping someone from Stack Exchange would come in with any ...

10

tungsten

18:14

@RoryAlosp I've read a lot, where exactly are the traces of changes?

Anders

18:46

I'll repeat it here as well, @RoryAlsop. I really apprechiate all the hard work you and the other mods have been putting in to this site. It would be a mess without you. Really hope SE sorts this mess out so we can have you back!

3

I think we all agree that mods deserve to be treated better than this.

Anyways - thank you for all the effort you have put into this site!

3

And the same goes for @AviD, @schroeder and @JeffFerland. SE might not be showing a lot of appreciation at the moment, but know that we the users appreciate every single handled flag.

HamZa

19:03

64

A: Stack Overflow Inc., sinat chinam, and the goat for Azazel

Moderator resignations across the network in protest of this: Gilles: Computer Science, French, Emacs Snow: Workplace Jane S: Workplace Dennis: Code Golf Robert Harvey: Software Engineering, Stack Overflow Paul White: Database Administrators (Suspending moderator activity) Awesome Poodles: Sta...

Transcript for