The DMZ

AviD

11:00

wat

bilbo_pingouin

Politics and military are two different things and terrorism is almost always politically motivated.

AviD

terrorism is not about politics.

diagprov

@AviD I think @bilbo_pingouin 's point was that by being close to the EU, they are "striking at the heart" of the "infidel", showing they can strike anywhere including not far from the capital.

AviD

or, usually not

diagprov

However, I disagree they suck at their aim. They're aiming at public transport, to inspire fear in people going outside and living their normal lives.

AviD

11:01

@diagprov which would be the point of terrorism, yes. Still not politics or military though.

@diagprov exactly this.

diagprov

Same for the restaurants and concerts. These are things normal people do. The message is "you are not safe".

AviD

@diagprov I think he was saying that they suck at maximizing kill rate, IF that was their aim, which he is saying it wasnt.

bilbo_pingouin

@AviD indeed.

Arperum

Yup. "You should live in fear because we are more powerful than any defense you might have."

@AviD I think blowing up the airport and a subway station during peak hours counts as a very good aim for maximizing death rate.

Adi

@AviD What the actual fucK?!

Why the fuck are you twisting my words?

bilbo_pingouin

11:04

If it isn't about politics, and just about killing as many people as they can, then, why don't they attack Hong Kong? Highest density of population.

AviD

@Adi hehe, keep reading...

Adi

@AviD I mean it's not unexpected from you. Create a false scenario in your head and start assuming.

AviD

and sometimes I do it just to wind you up...

Adi

@AviD I won't. If you wanted, you could have corrected yourself.

AviD

@Adi pfft, no, not at all...

@Adi I DID

Adi

11:04

Mmhm

AviD

7 mins ago, by AviD

@Arperum why is he saying that?

which was referring to

7 mins ago, by Arperum

@AviD He is saying it absolutely wasn't.

7 mins ago, by AviD

as in, why does it need to be said?

7 mins ago, by AviD

isnt it painfully obvious to anyone?

diagprov

@bilbo_pingouin they're in a severely asymmetric warfare situation. In a straight up fight, they'd lose very thoroughly. So their tactics are guerilla and their overall aim is influence.

AviD

and screw you for making me quote myself so much :P

@diagprov actually, guerilla tactics are different from terror tactics.

and more actually, their short term aim IS terror.

bilbo_pingouin

@AviD on that, we agree at least.

terror is a mean to achieve a political aim. Not an end. Believing that they are a bunch of dumb psychopaths trying to kill as many people is exposing yourself to a lot of problems.

AviD

@bilbo_pingouin welcome to the 1970s.

Terror is not always - or even, usually not - about a achieving a political aim.

Adi

11:09

@AviD Mmmhm

AviD

It is more often about achieving a religious one.

Adi

I agree

diagprov

@AviD that's true, I'm just making an analogy really. The key point being they're after influence of some kind.

Adi

@AviD Okay, I disagree

AviD

@Adi oh?

bilbo_pingouin

11:10

@AviD denying that there's an ulterior motive is... well, I can't find a nice enought word... not wise.

AviD

I'm not talking about personal reasons - I'm talking about the overall organizational cause.

Adi

Jihadi terrorism aims to create chaos, disrupt cohesion, increase polarization.

AviD

@bilbo_pingouin oh there IS an ulterior motive. It's just not a political one.

diagprov

It depends how you define "political aim" and we probably have different views on this.

AviD

that view is hopelessly naive.

Adi

11:11

It's not a religious goal

It's a very pragmatic one

AviD

@Adi ah, I was using the word loosely.

I did not mean "This is the way of Islam" - but more like "BRING ON THE END OF THE WORLD"

bilbo_pingouin

politics != ideology... so politics can be very pragmatic

Adi

@AviD I probably agree more on the first statement than the second

The chaos is not the goal

AviD

@Adi again, using it as an example

Adi

But rather a mean to achieve the goal

AviD

11:13

not that they really wnat to end the world

@Adi which is?

Adi

@AviD I don't believe so

@AviD Control. Power.

Self determination

bilbo_pingouin

@Adi how's that not politics?

AviD

@Adi neither do I, but they do want to end the current state of the world. Bring on a new world order, so to speak.

Adi

@AviD Mmm.. yeah, could be. I think that's a good middle ground that I can agree with

AviD

@bilbo_pingouin if the EU were to cede to their political demands - would the terror stop? This is a key test to the political question.

Adi

11:15

@bilbo_pingouin I think here we have another semantics issue

As what "political terror" means

bilbo_pingouin

no, I think we disagree on what politics mean

Adi

Control and power and self determination are politics

I think we both agree on that

bilbo_pingouin

and didn't you say that was the goal?

Adi

Indeed

AviD

right then, I'll let you lot sort out the semantics... I have work to catch up on.

Adi

11:17

But I'd argue (from the same point of view as @AviD's) that it's not political terror

bilbo_pingouin

so, you just disagree with me on principle ground that you don't like me? (sad face)

AviD

lol noooo @Adi would NEVAR do that :P

note to @Adi: yes I AM kidding.

Adi

:D

silverpenguin

your favourite manatee has arrived

Simon

I only know one manatee and he's not even my favorite.

2

Adi

11:23

@silverpenguin That's a bold claim

silverpenguin

@Adi well I was going on the basis that you know no other manatees and therefore by default i am your favourite but @Simon has to be canadian and ruin my life

Simon

If this ruins your life, you gotta reconsider a few things.

silverpenguin

@Simon man i just about decided what to have for lunch and i have the same thing every day clearly considering things is not my strong suit....

@Simon how you been anyway have not seen much of you the last week

Simon

@silverpenguin Good, good, I was a tiny bit busier than usual, yourself?

silverpenguin

@Simon same surprisingly getting my javascript on... kind of effort...

Simon

11:30

Make sure to not get trapped into the claws of the various JS frameworks and you should be fine.

silverpenguin

@Simon lol nah fuck that im just using good ol raw js... dont see whats wrong with just using normal OOP rather than exstensive frameworks

Thomas Pornin

Terrorism is marketing.

AviD

Marketing is terrorism.

Sales is missionaries.

silverpenguin

donuts are cakes

but not all cakes are donuts

AviD

@silverpenguin whooo, close to the metal, eh?

Thomas Pornin

11:37

I mean that AQMI and ISIS need troops and thus fight each other for the European market.

AviD

@ThomasPornin lol

Thomas Pornin

Each successful bombing brings more volunteers.

Mmh, AQMI is the French acronym.

silverpenguin

@AviD no metal, just rockin and rollin

Simon

@ThomasPornin da fuk is AQMI?

silverpenguin

mainly rocking....and sobbing

AviD

11:40

hmm. I was sure that level of snark would be obvious.

silverpenguin

@Simon al qeada mission impossible

Simon

@silverpenguin I feel like you got the first 2 words right.

bilbo_pingouin

@Simon Al-Qaeda au Maghreb Islamique

silverpenguin

@bilbo_pingouin do I still get the toaster?

Thomas Pornin

@Simon AQIM in English.

bilbo_pingouin

11:41

@silverpenguin should ask Simon...

silverpenguin

@Simon toaster pls

Simon

That wouldn't help me considering that I've never heard of it in English either but cheers bilbo.

bilbo_pingouin

@Simon the AQ branch operating in North and West Africa

Thomas Pornin

Shootings one year ago in France were from Al Qeada Yemen, which is close to AQIM.

bilbo_pingouin

AQ is a franchise... so there are a few variants of it

Simon

11:43

Did not know that.

Yet I don't feel like this is necessary to know.

bilbo_pingouin

@ThomasPornin actually, those are called AQPA in French (Al Qaeda dans la Peninsule Arabique)

Thomas Pornin

And AQ is not in good terms with ISIS

Simon

How surprising.

Thomas Pornin

In fact they tend to shoot at each other in Syria and Lybia.

Simon

That's great.

silverpenguin

11:46

@ThomasPornin and then the US will fund a group to fight them and then they will become the new terrorists

Arperum

IIRC they have kind of declared war on each other.

Thomas Pornin

You need to know such details if you want to go beyond tbe "terrorism is bad" reflex.

Simon

Because knowing this translates to "terrorism is good"?

silverpenguin

am I the only one who gets confused between islamic state and the international space station ? people need to stop using acronyms

4

Adi

@ThomasPornin and Yemen

and Afghanistan

In fact, they committed a few horrific acts against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan

Like.. horrific horrific

bilbo_pingouin

11:48

@silverpenguin ISIS != ISS..; see there's an I missing...

Adi

@silverpenguin Use the generally agreed on insulting term "Daesh"

bilbo_pingouin

@Adi why insulting?

that's how they call themselves...

Adi

@bilbo_pingouin It's not how they call themselves

@bilbo_pingouin Because it's the acronym in Arabic, which sounds a lot like a hooligan opening a door in a very barbaric manner, or like stepping on something in a very barbaric manner

They don't like it

Thomas Pornin

@Adi In particular because ISIS failed at becoming a "state"

silverpenguin

@bilbo_pingouin Im not dumb, just lazy :P I skim and i get confused

Adi

11:51

Plus, acronyms aren't really a big thing in the Arabic language

@ThomasPornin The Taliban were a lot more successful at it (still failed, but a lot more successful)

The Taliban made the wise choice of making a lot fewer enemies than ISIS has made

Journeyman Geek

@Adi the taliban hoped to be a legitimate government in one place.

ISIS wants to take over a big chunk of the world by force

bilbo_pingouin

ok it's an acronym of how they call themselves... but derogatory. Fair enough.

Simon

@ThomasPornin Looks like you'll be getting 15-20 cm of snow on Thursday too.

Adi

@bilbo_pingouin They even no longer call themselves ISIS. Just IS

Which is confusing as fuck

Journeyman Geek

You can also call em Daeshbags....

Adi

11:54

@JourneymanGeek Yup. There's that as well

Turns out invading another country isn't very easy

bilbo_pingouin

@Adi which is also due to different aims. The Taliban, took the power in an already existing country, with a support of a foreign power. IS aims at some place in between two countries...

Thomas Pornin

@JourneymanGeek In fact they wanted to be a government, but it did not work and they had to revert to "terrorist group" to keep recruiting.

Journeyman Geek

@ThomasPornin they don't really have interests outside afganistan, no?

Adi

@ThomasPornin I think you bring up a very good point

It's difficult to recruit for jihad when there's no jihad to jihad

bilbo_pingouin

@ThomasPornin it's partly doubtful as some of their founders were AQ members. But yeah, they do need to recruit.

It's hard to get competent employees these days...

and they have quite some turnover

Thomas Pornin

11:58

@Adi That's what I mean. Bombs in Brussels or Paris are a marketing operation.

Adi

@bilbo_pingouin The founders of what?

Arperum

@ThomasPornin Yup. And a European racism reaction is the perfect thing they want.

Adi

@ThomasPornin A senior Al Qaeda member "Abu Obaida Abdulla Al Adam" has an audio series called "Creation of Terrorism". He mentions exactly that point.

Multiple smaller "victories" bring more recruited than one big "victory' and a long period of stagnation

bilbo_pingouin

@Adi Daesh

Adi

Probably a non-onebox link is good enough

But yeah, Al Qaeda never really took a liking of AQI

Thomas Pornin

12:03

@Adi You could flag it as "offensive"

Adi

In fact, in the jihadi circles, it was known that almost all Al Qaeda branches hated Abu Mus'ab Al Zarkawi

He was one of the very few Al Qaeda leaders who aren't educated

He was one of the very few with long criminal thug history

They hated him because he "lacked class"

It's very ridiculous to say that

:D

SmokeDispenser

re

Simon

@SmokeDispenser Wow, this is probably the first time that I see this in 10 years.

Adi

@Simon What is it?

Simon

@Adi "re"

Adi

12:06

I don't know what's that

Looked it up

SmokeDispenser

@Simon yeah. I might be old.

bilbo_pingouin

It is worth reading about "The Global Islamic Resistance Call" by Abu-Musab al-Suri... to see how they want to use terror to create a civil war to get more supporters.

Adi

@bilbo_pingouin Indeed it's a good book

I wonder where that guy is these days

AstroDan

So what do you think about the FBIs about face?

nytimes.com/2016/03/22/technology/…

Adi

@AstroDan I don't think that sentence was in English

SmokeDispenser

12:16

@AstroDan, do you ask us what we think about the 'outside party' and their claim?

well, could be possible, who knows:)

Thomas Pornin

@SmokeDispenser It might be an out-of-"court" settlement

AstroDan

Honestly I was surprised that they delayed the court date.

JukEboX

Morning everyone.

AstroDan

I thought that the FBI would use Belgium as leverage.

Thomas Pornin

That is, Apple and the FBI agreeing to do the unlocking discreetly, without compromising their respective postures.

SmokeDispenser

12:20

@ThomasPornin, that'd be horrible for apple if it got public.

AstroDan

@ThomasPornin Maybe. However if it ever got out it would make apple look very bad.

JukEboX

@AstroDan I really am interested to who stepped forward to help the FBI

SmokeDispenser

I doubt they would go for such high risks

JukEboX

It will somehow

Thomas Pornin

@JukEboX John McAfee !

AstroDan

12:20

@JukEboX I wonder if this may be the action of another TLA (three letter agency)

JukEboX

Someone will talk about it in their E-Mail and it will get hacked by whoever

@ThomasPornin No way

AstroDan

Or it will be pulled out via FOIA

JukEboX

@AstroDan you men the PLA :P

Simon

@JukEboX So what you're saying is that there is no way companies can keep secrets?

SmokeDispenser

@JukEboX that's why the collaboration would be such high risk.

AstroDan

12:21

@JukEboX Peoples Liberation Army?

JukEboX

@Simon I am sure they can.... for a time.

Simon

Why haven't we seen the source code for iOS then?

Adi

What was that Generals army?

The one made out of Iranian and Russian elements

SmokeDispenser

@Simon wha?

JukEboX

@AstroDan yup. They have been making counterfit everything for decades. Who is to say that they haven't reverse engineered a way in and sold it to a company or the FBI for $$$$$

AstroDan

12:23

Probably got the @MarkBuffalo, in his job at the NSA, to crack it

Adi

Oh yeah, Global Liberation Army

Simon

@SmokeDispenser If companies can only keep secrets "for a time", why hasn't there been a leak for their closed source software?

SmokeDispenser

@Simon, there has been.

Simon

Oh really, the entire source code for an iOS version is available somewhere?

AstroDan

@JukEboX If they cracked Apples encrypt they could make WAY more money keeping it a secret

SmokeDispenser

12:24

@Simon, Also, you are talking about a huge amount of data vs. a very small amount.

@Simon no. But other closed source has been leaked.

JukEboX

@AstroDan it is a win/win for both if it works so the issue is dropped by not for Apple since they are going to freak out about it

Simon

I absolutely don't believe in ultimate secrecy but I do believe that they'd be able to pull off something like unlocking the device without leaking their action.

JukEboX

I really don't think apple can force code in a way around their encryption especially in a ROM already flashed to the phone without reflashing and nuking the phone

Simon

There's a ton of shady shit that some companies are involved into that we never get to know.

SmokeDispenser

@Simon right.. until the press puts up enough money.

JukEboX

12:27

@SmokeDispenser you mean the "Corporate" government controlled media?

SmokeDispenser

@Simon, or the person that did it get's a bad feeling about it and runs to wikileaks

JukEboX

@SmokeDispenser or they get screwed by the government and runs the wikileaks

AstroDan

@Simon or until it involves the government and the FOIAS start flying.

JukEboX

@SmokeDispenser after violating their NDA and then there is an arrest warrant issued for their arrest and they hide out in a Guatamalan embassy

Simon

After all these years, no one has been able to figure out why did the chicken cross the road. This is a perfect example of what I'm saying.

Matthew

12:28

@Simon To get away from Colonel Saunders

Simon

Yeah I wouldn't want to be turned into KFC if I were a chicken.

Thomas Pornin

@Simon The point is valid, though: such a hidden action means that the involved personnel becomes a huge liability.

Simon

@ThomasPornin Sure, hence why I don't believe in "ultimate" secrecy but I bet they could pull it off anyway.

The key of success surely is to involve the least people as possible.

Thomas Pornin

@Simon There is no doubt that they could, but whether they would is another thing.

Simon

Mhm.

Thomas Pornin

12:31

In that while secrecy can be achieved, it is not guaranteed.

Simon

What's the deal with the bruteforce protection on the device anyway, after X attempts, you can't make another one for the next 30 seconds or something?

AstroDan

@Simon After 10 the device is erased.

Simon

@AstroDan I assume this is optional but the bad dudes did activate it?

Hum I thought they were limited to 4 digits.

Looks like they really do need Apple's help then.

JukEboX

@Simon 10 failed attempts = nuked

SmokeDispenser

@Simon no, arbitrary length is possible to use for quite a while

Thomas Pornin

12:35

@JukEboX With the important caveat that the code that decides the nuking is outside of the tamper-resistant part of the chip.

JukEboX

@ThomasPornin I think Apple should refuse to help the FBI.

Thomas Pornin

@JukEboX The security system on the iPhone case is a bit flaky (because of the "outside of the tamper-resistant part") so the FBI should have already broken through it, Apple or no Apple.

Thus, it is no longer a question of "help".

Simon

o

Then they could pull off the good ol' "You've already cheated once, what's the issue with doing it once more?".

silverpenguin

finally, I knew I would use a fast food place enough that eventually I would just lean over, use the till (american erm...checkout?? ) my self and tell them i ordered my regular and il be back in 15 mins

AstroDan

@silverpenguin A reasonable translation. However in the case of fast food Register or Cashier may be more appropriate.

Simon

12:45

@AstroDan You're a reasonable translation.

silverpenguin

@AstroDan they need an english to fake english dictionary... there is an english barrier between english and the americans

Simon

I wouldn't dare to call it a barrier.

It's just that you speak with a dumb accent.

silverpenguin

@Simon s/dumb/sexy

AstroDan

@silverpenguin Last time I was in England I wish that I had one of those. That UK fake English can be a pain.

silverpenguin

@AstroDan D: you are one of them...

AstroDan

12:49

@silverpenguin, nope I speak real (American) English :)

Rоry McCune

4

^says it all really

Simon

Shut top separatist.

Rоry McCune

@Simon shut top rebellious ex-colonist

Simon

:OOOOO

Matthew

@RоryMcCune Possibly historical enemy ex-colonist!

silverpenguin

12:52

@RоryMcCune the satisfaction this image brings to me is almost perverted

Simon

ew

Rоry McCune

and lets all just remember that James I of Britain was a Scottish king first :)

Simon

I'm eating pistachios and some of them required a damn doctorate to open their shell. I wouldn't last long in wild either.

silverpenguin

@Simon im surprised you made it this far either way! ;) <3

Simon

pls

SmokeDispenser

12:55

@RоryMcCune try simplified!

@silverpenguin starred.

Simon

@Xander pls help these UKers are insane.

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