The DMZ

TildalWave

00:01

Eating a donut without a guilty feeling? :)

Simon

I might actually go get some donuts ton8.

kalina

00:13

@Simon oh, I figured burning down the house I'm in with me inside of it

Simon

-.-

kalina

00:46

Xander

00:59

@Gilles Yeah...Somebody's decided to go for a flag badge, I think. It's obnoxious.

kalina

01:13

obnoxious is overstating it a little

you should be more tolerant of others

TildalWave

01:34

It's slightly obnoxious because it butts in into the review queue and makes you reach daily quota on less pressing things while you don't get to those that really need to be closed

and mildly obnoxious because whoever is on the flag crusade didn't ask anyone else if that's OK in such volume

And there's still flags that weren't cleared by mods since a few days ago, since that started. And who'd blame them? They can straight out ruin your day and take quite some time off you to clear properly without causing yourself additional headaches with them later on.

Tho, to be fair, non-mods wouldn't know what a mess mod system really is and how every dev effort focuses on end user front end and the last few updates to mod pages didn't really do much good for it

There, I got it off my chest :)

Night all!

rwollr

02:01

is there a library comparable to scapy for python 3

Stack Exchange

05:01

If all else fails, use "signifcant at a p>0.05 level" and hope no one notices.

AviD

08:22

@rwollr oh I do like Scapa. Havent had it in a while, but it does have nice character.

A bit different from typical Island malts.

Sweeter, but not overpoweringly so.

not one I would normally buy, but its nice to have once in a while, for variety.

Rоry McCune

08:39

Morning All

AviD

gmorning

oh damn this line:

Hey @Simon, yo momma's so fat, she wears a hula hoop for a collar!

stupid twitter spamparody account, that just happens to be damn funny: twitter.com/TextsFromMaDog

kalina

09:04

@TildalWave I never ask this, it's not really a concern of any user. I know moderators are volunteers but the defense "I am a volunteer" is invalid since you chose to nominate yourself for the position and could quit if you really don't have the time to deal with stuff like this

@TildalWave This is correct, yet most moderators don't hesitate before making SE's inability to implement a nice, clean and highly usable system on the users they're supposed to be serving.

AviD

@kalina its not about the volunteer efforts, its about prioritizing high signal to near-noise.

kalina

@TildalWave also you know I like you and the above is not reflective of my opinions of the blues in this room

AviD

if I get flooded with 100 flags of barely flaggable quality, it is likely I will miss the spam or vitriol flags. At the very least, it will take much longer to get to them.

kalina

@AviD unfortunately, this defense is used too much to basically say "all of this mundane house cleaning is below me, I don't want to know about it - I can't be bothered to make hard choices so only flag the really clear cut stuff"

usually followed by the line "my time is more valuable than that"

AviD

@kalina no, thats not it at all

(not that others havent said that)

kalina

09:07

which was ironic when they used it against me, because I'm sure that I earn more per hour than the entire moderation team of the site in question

AviD

its about signal to noise ratio.

kalina

and yet I was perfectly fine spending the time

AviD

happy to deal with the less critical flags, even in bulk, but dont overwhelm the important flags.

@kalina well NOW, not then

kalina

anyway, this isn't how I intended to start my morning! There are clouds forming over my partially sunny disposition and I don't need Stack Exchange clouds right now because I have enough clouds going on

@AviD you're assuming that the state of my career as advertised in here is actually updated in real time

AviD

@kalina hehe

kalina

09:09

that wouldn't be very secure on the whole information side of things, now would it

Rоry McCune

correct

AviD

on the other hand, the alternative credits you with more patience and self control than we have come to expect from you.

kalina

the dress I am wearing to this funeral looks like I'm trying to pull, I need a new dress

@AviD you'd think the first step would be to establish a online persona that only includes elements of my personality, rather than obviously being me

AviD

heh

kalina

otherwise at some point you could watch a video or something and go "oh, she talks exactly like kalina"

INTERESTING

seriously though, I slept like crap lastnight

and right now I really have no get up and go at all

which is really unlike me

AviD

09:14

meh, was gonna make a scat joke, decided against it.

Colin Cassidy

morning @Simon

and indeed everyone else

Rоry McCune

@ColinCassidy watcha'

AviD

#simon

Colin Cassidy

@RоryMcCune hows things in the wilderness?

kalina

that's a peculiar entry

Rоry McCune

09:15

@ColinCassidy our snow has all gone for now which is a bit of a bonus apart from that, not so bad.

kalina

I am going to adopt it

who wants to be my designated person to greet upon arrival

Rоry McCune

@kalina I nominate @AviD

he likes the pings

kalina

ok that works, I like avid

avid would be somebody I'd say hi to

morning @AviD

and... everybody else

AviD

@kalina OHMYGODMOHMIGOD THISISTHEBESTDAYEVAR

kalina

year

actually

defining moment of your life

you're right, that was too far

is the menu bar broken?

must just be on the search page

0

Q: Super collider drop downs have stopped working on chat.stackexchange.com

...at least in Google Chrome and Internet Explorer, anyway. If you browse to chat.stackexchange.com while logged in you get your StackExchange/Inbox/Activity menu icons but clicking them doesn't result in a menu. This still seems to be working on actual sites but not on chat.

Is that broken for anybody else?

I want to comment "just another instance of Stack Exchange's overall negligent attitude towards personal information" on this:

43

Q: My real name was used in a beta invite email

I've been participating in the engineering private beta this week and filled in the form in the sidebar to invite a friend. I was very surprised to find out that my real name was sent to that person as the inviter instead of my display name. Is this on purpose and can it please be changed to di...

support email private-beta real-name

I am going to refrain from doing so, though

this is tongue biting on a "accidentally bit off part of my tongue" level

Arperum

09:28

@kalina Broken in Firefox too.

kalina

cool

not going to look into it for them, my time is more valuable than that </SEDefaultResponse>

morning @Arperum btw

hows things?

Rоry McCune

plasmasturm.org/log/valueofcontrol

3

^ heh

kalina

I don't get it

Rоry McCune

Tom DeMarco has a really famous quote "you can't control what you can't measure"

it gets trotted out by management in big cos all the time

to justify the latest round of pointless stats gathering

kalina

I like pointless stats gathering

you can make pretty pictures with pointless stat gathering

deed02392

09:37

@RоryMcCune lol

Rоry McCune

the link was him basically saying it only matters on crappy projects

AviD

@RоryMcCune yeah thats always misunderstood by the management types

Rоry McCune

@AviD so him officially recanting it is amusing and I will make sure to remember that next time someone (mis)quotes it at me :)

@deed02392 mornin'

AviD

@RоryMcCune excellent

kalina

like the number of coffees made per 1kloc

that would be a good graph

AviD

09:39

actually the bigger point is: he meant it about measuring / controlling the project. Somehow the corporates think they can apply that on the people.

the ONLY thing you can accurately measure OR control about people is headcount. Everything else is a lie, and a malicious one at that.

kalina

that graph would be able to answer the question of "what is the optimal amount of coffee to feed your developers"

Rоry McCune

@AviD yeah I've heard it quoted as "you can't manage what you can't measure"

kalina

and allow you to optimize it by hiring some school drop out just to make coffee for minimum wage, to keep your expensive resources busy

Rоry McCune

which infuriates me as it's so obviously false

AviD

YOU CANT MEASURE PEOPLE. DONT EVEN TRY TO CONTROL THEM.

You wouldnt like it if you could.

kalina

09:41

why not? everybody tries to control somebody

Taylor Swift is successfully manipulating most of the western world

AviD

@kalina see, there's the embedded lie: you dont WANT them to be "busy" all the time.

@kalina as sheep, sure. But not as creative people.

kalina

@AviD I'd much rather my expensive resources went and played ping pong rather than make coffee, thoguh

something fun, rather than something mundane

AviD

@kalina you dont get to choose, thats the point.

Journeyman Geek

Sure you can measure people. Knowing how heavy and tall a software programmer is though...

kalina

sure you do, by providing some nobody to make the coffee, the developers can play ping pong

AviD

09:43

if I want to take a break and make coffee, not pingpong, you just better get the hell out of my way, and make sure I have the best damn tools to make myself an awesome cup of coffee.

speaking of...

kalina

it doesn't even matter if the nobody quits every week

because you just replace them with another nobody

AviD

@kalina thats the typical management perspective on programmers.

kalina

psh

programmers are a valuable resource

there's much too much of a learning curve for a new programmer to be allowing them to leave frequently

AviD

@RоryMcCune I also love how all those corps love to quote half a line there, and then ignore some of the most important messages in the book.

like in Peopleware, they'll quote all that metrics stuff, and then go and shove everybody into a big openspace cubicle fattening farm.

Rоry McCune

@AviD well of course :) Between that and not reading the mythical man month (I have been tempted to buy it for people on a number of occasions)

kalina

09:45

I am going to be hiring soon

Arperum

@kalina Good. Getting a second cat/kitten tonight (if my aunt is at home and/or the kitten can be found by my parents)

AviD

@kalina hiring what?

kalina

@Arperum cool

@AviD 1 programmer and 1 graphics design

it is cheaper in the long run than subcontracting the work

AviD

cant do graphics design for crap, but I might consider the programming

kalina

oh I wasn't advertising for employees in here

AviD

09:46

especially after this ^ chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/19723633#19723633

kalina

:p

AviD

sadly rare

looking for more interesting projects... I'm bored now

Rоry McCune

@kalina you should totally hire from here and then stay "In character" as @kalina the whole time, pseudonymous like Charlie in Charlies angels!

kalina

well, I wouldn't say "interesting", at least in the short term

I have specs for four projects that need doing

I'll rephrase

I have 1 good spec and 3 outlines

complete with coffee stains

and diversification seems to be the way forward

Arperum

@kalina Any spec without stains from some kind of drink is not a real spec.

kalina

09:49

I know!

sometimes I make the audi logo out of coffee rings

sometimes I make the olypmics logo

other times, it's just a circle

with the letter C to the left and FFEE to the right

in one instance, a coffee ring led to a design choice

Rоry McCune

2

shiit that comic is nearly 19 years old

kalina

my company logo designs are very much based on circles as well

I haven't even decided what I'm going to call the company yet, though

Rоry McCune

@kalina of course it should be "Le Do(UGH)nut"

Arperum

I haven't decided on a name for the new kitten yet either. It's basically a tiny Garfield, but I refuse to use that name because it is completely overused.

Lucas Kauffman

kalina

10:00

seems legit

I usually use the measurement between the index finger and thumb as it's easier to visualize

basically, if I were a guy, I'd have a tiny penis.

as an upside, I have tiny hands, so even an average penis looks bigger than it is

shame the rest of my body doesn't agree that conclusion

Now I'm lying on the cold hard ground

@RоryMcCune no

@Arperum call it allah for completely inappropriate giggles when you're calling it inside

@RоryMcCune my mind is blown

that comic is older than lighty

Arperum

10:19

@kalina Heh. I'd do so except that it is not the most respectfull option, if I wanted to stab at people I'd call it god, more chance of causing uptight people annoyance (AFAIK there are no moslims living nearby).

kalina

It's not a respect thing, I respect that some people like their fiction

my friend had a cat we called jesus because he was born on the 25th of december

Arperum

I also want a name that sorta vaguely has to do something with music. (The other cat is named Pixel, so PC-related things are covered)

kalina

pixel is music related if you abstract enough

also, +1 for having a cat using one of my aliases

you should clearly call the other one kalina

Arperum

The Bridge came up with "Vertex" and "Coda" as best options (other options were already discarded). I'm not convinced by either yet.

Rоry McCune

@kalina tell me about it, I was working in an office when that comic came out!

kalina

10:28

@Arperum oh right, yeah that cat isn't cute enough to be called kalina

Arperum

@kalina It's also a male.

kalina

@RоryMcCune I used lighty as an example to avoid discussing the state of my existence during this timeframe :p

@Arperum why do you even want a male cat

AviD

@kalina doesnt make sense. Jesus wasnt born on 25th December.

@Arperum THE HULK

Arperum

@kalina Because this one is male. It has to go away from where it is now, they already have to many cats.

@AviD Does it look like it's green?

AviD

@Arperum NOT MATTER. HULK NOT NEED BE GREEN.

Arperum

10:35

@AviD You are terrible at naming.

AviD

@Arperum HULK NOT NEED NAMES

HULK STRONGER THAN YOU

Arperum

This cat did survive being hit by a car, and then having a non-functioning leg for quite some time.

But it's all OK again.

kalina

meh

I'm going to have to go clothes shopping

literally among my least favorite things in the world

TildalWave

@kalina hehe thanks but what I wanted to say (being nearly unconscious at the time) was that it creates an unnecessary workload on both reviewers and mods (I'm not a mod on Sec.Se, just a regular user, not even all that high rep or otherwise special in any way). It's similar, say, with edits, just for a bit different reason that you don't want loads of old questions taking over the front page. Either case, a few flags - fine. Then wait till they're cleared.

I know it's not a user's problem, but it is "ours". That's all I tried to say ;)

(with "ours" I mean the community)

kalina

@TildalWave I don't think a site that survives on user contributions has the right to whine about a user contributing

Rоry McCune

10:45

@kalina my approach to clothes shopping "1. enter shop, 2. find appropriate looking item, 3. does it look like it'll fit ok. 4. if yes buy" minimum time in shop

kalina

Now if a user is flagging stuff and they're genuinely invalid, stop that user from flagging

TildalWave

@kalina I'm a user contributing ;)

kalina

If I choose to flag 100 valid things and a moderator rejects the flags because they can't be bothered to review them, that's a slap in the face and is actively damaging to a site that survives on user contributions

the fact of the matter is, there was a point when I flagged more things than any individual moderator worked on, on a per monthly basis

and the bulk of those flags got rejected because the moderators couldn't be bothered looking at them

the problem there is not the user, it is the moderators

Arperum

@RоryMcCune I should do that for pants somewhere this year. I don't look forward to it. Tshirts and sweaters are not an issue, I bu these at gigs I go to, but they don't sell pants in general, and even if they do, I have no clue if they'll actually fit.

kalina

we're all volunteers, moderators made themselves available to deal with stuff on a more direct level and that does make them special, in a way

Rоry McCune

10:48

@Arperum my new thing. Internet clothes shopping. as long as they measure in proper numbers (i.e. not abitrary stuff like "small", "medium") it's pretty easy to get stuff that fits and no shops!

kalina

if you don't like the workload, f### off and let somebody who cares get involved

(again, not directed at teh blues in here)

hey guys, I am a programmer but if you make me program more than 5 lines of code per day I will throw a bitch fit </SEModerators>

NO DAMN YOU WHY ARE WE BACK ON THIS TOPIC OF CONVERSATIOn

Rоry McCune

@kalina "but like the murphys"

Arperum

@kalina Wait, you mean I actually have to write more?

kalina

lol

I actually probably wouldn't use the "lines of code" metric

as long as stuff actually gets done, that's all that matters

Rоry McCune

@kalina hey hey hey, you need a metric here, after all you can't manage what you can't measure!

AviD

10:55

@Arperum HUUUUUULK

Arperum

@AviD Go get some coffee or something.

kalina

@RоryMcCune I... hate buzzwords, buzzphrases, etc

AviD

nah I have to go uber around for a while. coffee would get cold before I can properly enjoy it.

will make it when I get back.

@kalina @Arperum oo theres a name for ya. Buzz.

or Buzzz if you want to be hipster.

Nוnɛfוngɛrϛ

@AviD Not true! You can measure if they have a degree or not, then not hire them because they're clearly stupid if they don't. </jaded>

kalina

I'd much rather approach development like "this is the project, can you have a look at this and let me know in the next week how long you think it will take, and then we'll arrange progress reviews several times during that period (depending on the length of the project)"

while remaining completely open to "unforeseen circumstances"

Nוnɛfוngɛrϛ

10:58

What's best about this metric is it is just a checkbox. No messy numbers to deal with!

kalina

@Nוnɛfוngɛrϛ I don't have a degree

Nוnɛfוngɛrϛ

@kalina Me neither

Arperum

22 mins ago, by Arperum

@AviD You are terrible at naming.

kalina

call it hipster

hell, call it rory

that's the best name

rory the cat

AviD

@Nוnɛfוngɛrϛ thats not measuring. that's Social Profiling.

@Nוnɛfוngɛrϛ nor I

@kalina I agree!!!

@Arperum it's settled then.

Nוnɛfוngɛrϛ

11:00

@AviD Yeah I know. Just wanted to vent a little.

AviD

hey any kind of Profiling is illegal in Murica.

kalina

unless you work for the NSA

Rоry McCune

@kalina or the TSA

kalina

and then being non-white = you are profiled

AviD

@RоryMcCune no, they are not allowed to profile.

Rоry McCune

11:02

@AviD .... so the screening they do is actually random?

kalina

haha no

AviD

@kalina or a 90 year old great grandmother will be strip searched, to ensure that it is not "profiling"

@RоryMcCune ha, you wish.

Random would be an improvement.

Nוnɛfוngɛrϛ

@RоryMcCune Yes. My random generator is returning 3,3,3,3,3,3,3,...

Rоry McCune

@AviD no if we're talking wish, I wish they would revert to only doing stuff that actually works!

AviD

@RоryMcCune hahahahaha

that would be the complete opposite of everything they do now.

Rоry McCune

11:03

@AviD well yes

Nוnɛfוngɛrϛ

@RоryMcCune That's the one.

Arperum

@kalina That's actually a pretty good suggestion. That name fits a cat. cc @RoryAlsop @RоryMcCune

Terry Chia

13.3" E-Ink screen: blog.the-ebook-reader.com/2015/01/15/…

Now that's cool.

kalina

@RоryMcCune that's insufficient

it has to fit perfectly

and be the right colour

and match my other clothes

and I need a pair of shoes that goes with the outfit

and possibly need my hair styling in a particular manner to compliment the outfit

Rоry McCune

@kalina sounds like girl stuff to me

kalina

11:12

and then before you know it, you're half naked, basically in public

with nothing but a curtain between you and the outside world

Rоry McCune

@kalina internet shopping FTW as I say

kalina

or, you do internet shopping

and they lie about the sizes

Terry Chia

@kalina That's basically a kilt no?

kalina

and the returns policies are bullshit

so you buy the same item three items in different sizes so you have a chance that one will fit properly

so your delivery is like a truck full of stuff

and then you have to return a truck full of stuff

and it's just so much effort

this show is a size four

but it's actually got less foot space than these size fives

and they're too narrow

and the photos on the internet were taken from a very flattering angle

and then you still need to look at styling your hair in a particular way

not to mention that ordering online prolongs the process

since you order, then wait, then they arrive, then you try them on, then you send them back, then you wait, then you wait, then more arrives, then you try them on, then you send them back, then you wait

Rоry McCune

@kalina mens clothing, sized in inches works fine! never understood the need for arbitrary size measurements

kalina

11:15

I need to hire a body double to go shopping for me

that seems like the only logical solution

Terry Chia

@RоryMcCune So I took a closer look at The Update Framework. Really cool stuff!

kalina

I'm pretty sure there are laws against me targeting that specific of an individual for employement though

Rоry McCune

@TerryChia how far have they got in actually getting it implemented? from what I saw it looked like python was the closest, but I couldn't easily see progress...

Terry Chia

@RоryMcCune It's still in the "community is still mulling over it" phase.

Things move slowly in core Python.

Rоry McCune

@kalina can't see why not "Must look like a trucker from Des Moines would look"

@TerryChia well better than ruby where after the panic over the Rubygems hack in 2013 hardly anything seems to have happened!

kalina

11:18

@RоryMcCune you know, I'm going to use the des moines line as an easter egg at some point

Rоry McCune

@kalina heh

kalina

it will be like revealing my identity without anybody but you guys having a clue what is going on

Terry Chia

@RоryMcCune Actually, lemme ping a PyPI dev and ask.

kalina

"so liek, everybody's favorite trucker from Des Moines here"

Rоry McCune

@kalina sure and even then I would need to see the reveal, which if it's club music I am fairly unlikely to...

kalina

11:20

true but I could do something like "hey check out this amazing track I heard the other day"

you should all really click this link but remain quiet once you get it.

definitely work

either that or the first breach costs you an arm

for which I still have a super freaky @Adnan sample

which I'm obviously classifying as royalty free

Rоry McCune

@kalina well obviously...

kalina

I am a bad person who doesn't get my music "signed", I get it "licensed" so I retain full control over it. I don't pay my vocalists percentages, I pay them flat fees. I require payments for live performances in cash where possible so that there's no paper trail.

retention of copyright control is so important now that everybody in the music industry is trying to screw artists out of everything

right, this is a massive dilemma

a perfectly suitable outfit exists for funeral attending

in the wardrobe of the person whose funeral I'd be attending

kalina

11:46

the amount of rep you get for answers vs questions is a bit silly

9 question upvotes = 45 rep, 3 answer upvotes + accept = 45 rep

right, less distracting of myself and more working through it

Arperum

@kalina Because SE is built for collecting answers, they don't really care about questions.

kalina

@Arperum without questions, there is nothing to answer

Arperum

@kalina True, that's why you still get something.

kalina

still silly

Arperum

@kalina Agreed.

Terry Chia

11:57

@RоryMcCune So, it looks like it's gonna happen. Someone just has to put in the effort and come up with an implementation plan.

Rоry McCune

@TerryChia interesting... well they'd be putting themselves ahead of the pack with that. Between insecure updaters and the poor cred managment (clear text Pwds in dotfiles) a lot of ecosystems don't really provide a warm fuzzy feeling on the security side...

Terry Chia

@RоryMcCune I'll probably be helping with the efforts.

Because I'm masochistic and like working on crypto for some reason.

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