The DMZ

Scott Pack

19:01

I'm not getting the 4e joke

M'vy

Hey there

Scott Pack

How do

M'vy

Lol dice rolling

Iszi

@ScottPack It would seem to be a stab at 4e's reliance on the battlemap.

And its extensive ruleset.

Scott Pack

I suppose. He could have pulled a muscle on that one.

Iszi

19:04

Haha... @CRoss - Are you okay? Did that stretch hurt?

Scott Pack

I can't entirely disagree. After a couple of years of playing 4e I definitely felt bored and was happy to go back to 3.5....er...Pathfinder.

Stack Exchange

Stack Overflow Blog: SE Podcast #14

Posted by Alex Miller on August 3rd, 2011

Miguel De Icaza joins Jeff & Joel this week to discuss everything from Miguel’s many projects to identity on the internet to playdates for toddlers. Miguel is a force in the software world, having initiated and contributed to all kinds of products over the years – he’s also well known for being one of the most productive programmers out there. Check out the full episode for:

Miguel has worked on a number of different projects including Midnight Commander, Gnome, Mono, Ximian and more …

Gilles

@TheEvilPhoenix Well, I've come here to discuss it. I was hoping for civilized discussion, I'm disappointed

@TheEvilPhoenix Two general remarks. 1. Read for comprehension. 2. When someone disagrees with you, insults are not a response that will help you or your cause (plus they tend to make other people unhappy, too).

3

C. Ross

@Iszi The style of its ruleset that attempts to drive out all ambiguity and encourage mix and match powergaming

this.josh

An odd usage of 'some contact info'
* FIRST NAME
* LAST NAME
* EMAIL ADDRESS
* PASSWORD
* COMPANY / ORGANIZATION
* JOB TITLE
* PHONE NUMBER
* ADDRESS 1
ADDRESS 2
* CITY
* STATE / PROVINCE
* COUNTRY
* POSTAL CODE

Gilles

19:11

@Mvy I did, early in the private beta (I linked to that in my Area51 post). I also followed the recent discussion when it came up again.

M'vy

Right.

Gilles

@RoryAlsop @Mvy @Iszi I don't normally hang around here, but feel free to @ping me (or even @@) if you want to hold a civilized discussion

M'vy

@@?

Gilles

@Mvy A mod-only feature that lets them ping people even if they haven't been in a chatroom for a while

The Evil Phoenix

@Gilles Two rebuttal remarks: (1) Your definition of "comprehension" is irrelevant because you are stating a massive merger that makes absolutely zero sense... because ITSec/InfoSec is not equivalent to physical security, which encompasses about a billion other security factors. ...

nealmcb

19:16

@thisjosh Well, they didn't ask for my chat accounts, or to friend me on facebook or anything. And at least they have a lot of good stuff to offer. But yeah, you do need to set up an account and they sure want to be able to contact you....

The Evil Phoenix

@Gilles (2) Understand that under extreme pressure (logs of this are in here and other rooms from about 8 hours ago) my likelihood to overload increases exponentially, hence the unintended insults... this is also what happens when my coffee is intentionally denied to me by others, as I have a diagnosed dependency on caffeine for mental stability

... which happened to be the case earlier...

and i've already been lectured on this before and how i should control my "mental stability levels" before responding to things...

so i dont need to hear another one :P

this.josh

Do other sites ask for chat accounts or facebook accounts?

Iszi

19:28

@TheEvilPhoenix Wow. I did miss all the fun this morning, it seems.

this.josh

FYI registering for the Black Hat USA 2011 Live Streaming does not appear to validate your e-mail address.

Iszi

Oh, I like this concept: "What could a low observable autonomous aircraft carrying 10 pounds of cyber-attack tools do to your organization's networks, your nation's critical infrastructure or worse, if it were carrying something unspeakable, what would that do to expectations of public safety?"

The Evil Phoenix

@Iszi :/

nealmcb

@TheEvilPhoenix What aspects of physical security do you think would be a problem here, and why? I tend to think it would help any security professional to be in touch with what others deal with - the mindset is the big differentiator here.

Iszi

@TheEvilPhoenix It's a whole 'nother incentive for Wi-Fi security.

nealmcb

19:39

@thisjosh Feeble attempt at humor there.... But sure, lots of social networking sites encourage you to share all your other chat/social hangouts

this.josh

@nealmcb Yes, I got the humor, just wonder if you had actually encountered it.

Iszi

Another talk I wish I could be there for: "The Hidden Threat of Embedded Web Servers"

this.josh

It really should be NoWiFi or WiLessFi

Iszi

@thisjosh I'm sure you know the "Wi" in "Wi-Fi" is for "Wireless"...?

The Evil Phoenix

@nealmcb read the meta post, someone else already posted a list that i agreed with fully.

this.josh

19:41

@Iszi "Aerial Cyber Apocalypse" is live streaming for free

@Iszi Yes, I know, but the abreviation bugs me.

nealmcb

@TheEvilPhoenix I read it, but didn't see much discussion of what the problem would be with other physical security discussions

The Evil Phoenix

@nealmcb because i've been busy all day

nealmcb

Hmm - would it be a problem if we discussed TSA security theater from a scientific viewpoint?

this.josh

@nealmcb You don't want to get me started on the TSA.

nealmcb

You got really triggered, and I can't tell if it is because of some dangerous black hole topic I'm not thinking of, or if you just thought the process wasn't quite right

Iszi

19:44

@nealmcb If we're not already flagged by the FBI...

The Evil Phoenix

@nealmcb i got triggered because of an area51 post which proposed merging physical security and itsec

not because i had defined boundaries

Scott Pack

@Iszi That does sound neat.

The Evil Phoenix

but because ITSec != full physical security

even InfoSec != physical security in its entirety

this.josh

The FBI is generally limited to American domestic affairs.

The Evil Phoenix

this was also with the lack of caffeine

which affects my mental stability

nealmcb

19:45

But why not? I want a few specifics.

The Evil Phoenix

(well documented and tested)

@neal i hate to be an ass, but did you read the "Security" proposal over on area51?

they're talking about security in teh sense of actual physical security - airplanes, buildings, etc. etc. etc.

which does not apply here

subsequently...

this.josh

I wonder how many US Secret Service agents are investigating BitCoin.

Gilles

@nealmcb Why would it be? If it's good enough for Bruce Schneier, it's good enough for Security.SE

nealmcb

The example questions all seem reasonable - how good are locks, what are the issues with video monitors - IT folks have those questions too.

I'd want to avoid the politics of the TSA, though

The Evil Phoenix

only very few items which we would have to identify would be on-topic, the rest of physical security would be offtopic

this.josh

19:50

must ... restrain ... self ...

nealmcb

And then there's the topic of detecting folks about to "go postal" :)

Gilles

@thisjosh from posting a question on biometric identification for squids? Yeah, me too

nealmcb

LOL

@thisjosh I'd love to dive into the opportunities Bitcoin provides for linking transactions and people together. Hey - we should get Zuckerberg on board there - move from opening up everyone's conversations to include their purchases too.

this.josh

Squid biometrics is inherently insecure, unless you require 5 or more tentacles

nealmcb

Nah, you can identify those suckers from a long way away....

this.josh

19:58

eh, it appears to be joke hour at the DMZ

Do we have an amazon link thingie where IT Security gets credit if someone buys a book we link to?

or any online seller of printed material that provides benefit to linkers

Gilles

@thisjosh IIRC all amazon.com links are turned into affiliate links (for SE in general, not Security.SE specifically)

this.josh

Is it worth doing, and how do you do it?

Rory Alsop

20:38

@ScottPack It's lovely. Can be very like beef steak

Scott Pack

@RoryAlsop Good to know. Eating horses is rather frowned upon in the region of my youth. Unsurprisingly.

Rory Alsop

@nealmcb oh dear...

Hi @Gilles - hopefully we will get a reasoned discussion from the community - my hope is that we will get good agreement on a range of sub-disciplines to have in-scope, and good agreement on out-of-scope with only a few in that grey area

@ScottPack Over here it's mostly considered a French thing, but most of the horse steaks I have eaten have been in the US

Scott Pack

Likely not in the Bluegrass, I imagine.

Rory Alsop

nah - mostly Vegas :-)

Scott Pack

Yeah, not exactly big horse country there :)

Rory Alsop

20:52

empty desert country - currently full of people mostly in black or tinfoil

Scott Pack

The nyerd predilection for black t-shirts always confuses me. Do those people not realize how easily dandruff shows on black?

Rory Alsop

Hahahaha

Scott Pack

I can't tell you how many times that went through my head at Origins.

this.josh

Does anyone make black tinfoil?

Rory Alsop

@thisjosh - you just cover it in duck tape, which obviously every geek has

Gilles

21:04

@ScottPack Did you grow up in one of those weird places where they don't eat rabbit either?

@RoryAlsop Is it? It's almost died out in France as well, there aren't many horses left

Scott Pack

@Gilles Oh heavens no! Hell, there's a town called Rabbit Hash.

Rory Alsop

@Gilles :-)

Gilles

@thisjosh No, there's a secret law against making it

@RoryAlsop Only quacks have duck tape!

Rory Alsop

@Gilles This is comedy night - you guys should come to the Edinburgh Festival

could make a mint

Scott Pack

Why did the Irishman cross the road?

this.josh

21:06

I think making a mint is illegal in most jurisdictions

Rory Alsop

@ScottPack I dunno - I heard the one about him crossing twice

Gilles

@RoryAlsop Thank you, I'll be here till Thursday (or thereabouts depending on my exact bedtime)

Rory Alsop

to be sure, to be sure

Scott Pack

Because the livestock was prettier than his wife?

Gilles

@thisjosh in France, it's because garlic breath is legally mandatory

this.josh

21:08

@Gilles touché

Jeff Ferland

Things that Bsides has taught me: SSL is irreparably broken because of the certificate system. I personally propose some extension to DNSSEC, but that's another story. Operating systems really need to compartmentalize programs and provide greater granular security.

Rory Alsop

@JeffFerland how is it going? I do like BSides

just the mix of people you get

Jeff Ferland

It is quite fantastic. I've seen four talks in a row and they've all been great uses of my time.

Rory Alsop

Anyone come up to you yet and demanded a t shirt?

Jeff Ferland

Also, I really want to write something about using DNSSEC to authenticate encryption keys instead of the certificate system of SSL / TLS.

@RoryAlsop Security through obscurity. I have no shirts, so there is no demand ;)

Rory Alsop

21:13

That DNSSEC thing would be good

I like Zuly's approach - a mass tweet telling folks to ask questions here for a t shirt:-)

Jeff Ferland

SSL certs are authenticating ownership of the domain anyway. It doesn't make sense once the top level domains are signed.

Ooh, that's a good one. I wish I knew how many shirts I was getting.

I hope it's at least 100. I feel like anything less won't be very effective.

Ooh, I now have 10k net rep against all the sites. Woohoo

Rory Alsop

Excellent

this.josh

Whoa whoa, slow down... DNSSEC

Jeff Ferland

@thisjosh yes?

this.josh

DNS is not designed to deliver secure authentication

Jeff Ferland

21:17

It is now!

At least better than the SSL auth system is

this.josh

it is a distributed, loosely organized, abritrarly controled system

Rory Alsop

Lol

this.josh

Re: "Operating systems really need to compartmentalize programs and provide greater granular security."

There is one major problem with getting Operating Systems with better security. Users are not willing to pay for it.

Gilles

@thisjosh It's not a matter of paying, otherwise OpenBSD would have more users than Windows

this.josh

Paying is not only money paid up gront for a license or copy.

Jeff Ferland

21:20

I'll be back in an hour. Going to conserve battery and watch the next talk.

Users fail to use things available to them all the time. It needs to be available, though.

this.josh

It is about resources required to operate, training, mantenance

@JeffFerland That's exactly my point!

Security is not static. Users are not willing to put effort into maintenance.

If maintenance is not highly automatic, the users arn't willing to put in the effort.

Err, how did I get on this soapbox?

AviD

wow, been busy in here today.

this.josh

They're pushing all my buttons today: TSA, OS Security, DNSSec...

AviD

@Hendrik, @mvy, @RoryAlsop - thanks!

now I'll have access to mod tools, even if I get deposed... :)

@Gilles I'm sorry for that.

Reading the transcript, my reaction was similar to yours... but I showed up to the party later, so I'm glad for your comment.

Though I do have to say, I'm mostly in agreement with @RoryAlsop on this - most topics would have to be offtopic, though many would (and already are) accepted here.

@Mvy sorry to see there were no questions in that tag :(

this.josh

@AviD did you hear about the Blue hat Challenge?

AviD

21:29

@thisjosh something new? no.

this.josh

Not as new as they would lead us to believe, but good

AviD

@ScottPack @Iszi those are both disgusting. They do not count for Favorite Topic #2 at all. I hereby ban you from discussing food in this room, until a later time which will be specified later, but no earlier than a successful, appetizing post about real food.

@thisjosh so what is it?

this.josh

Blue Hat Challenge Microsoft's contest to produce new defensive security technology.

AviD

@RoryAlsop - your horse steak comment gets you only a warning.

this.josh

Damn, now I feel like a Microsft's stooge...

AviD

21:32

cool!

but wait.... bluehat are usually hacker/crackers, no?

that doesnt usually lead one to design a novel runtime mitigation technology

this.josh

According to Wikipedia Blue Hats are external pre-release adversarial security testers

AviD

@JeffFerland are you planning on writing up a summary of the conference, and some of the talks?

6

Q: Anyone going to Blackhat in Vegas - Volunteer a blog post?

Whoever is planning on attending Black Hat USA 2011, in 2 weeks - would you be willing to write up a summary of the conference, for a blog post? Especially any relevant, technical talks you attend, but also the conference in general... Update - he same goes for Defcon and others - please leave...

Rory Alsop

Hey @AviD - I've been making amends:-)

AviD

@RoryAlsop heh, you cute you

you're still not up to my ratios to you ;)

'course, you shouldnt feel obligated, just cuz YOU SCREWED ME OVER ONCE! :P

but thanks! you pushed me over the line!

@RoryAlsop wot's this about your new role?

thought you just started one?

this.josh

you keep on pushing my rep over the privilege line...

AviD

21:44

@thisjosh ha! That's what she said!

nealmcb

@JeffFerland I thought there were already some RFCs on that sort of thing - DNSSEC for keys for different services

this.josh

@nealmcb Yes, but to whom do you distribute the keys?

AviD

@grahamlee I saw you're also looking for a new position... Great blog post about it! very entertaining... Sorry to hear, though :(

nealmcb

@thisjosh Hmmm? If you're using DNSSEC, I assume you're boradcasting them to everyone - "contact us securely via ...."

AviD

Some of you may get a kick out of this: Internet Explorer users have lower IQ says study

this.josh

21:57

@nealmcb Then whos keys do you trust?

@AviD it's a hoax.

AviD

hehe... I just thought it was amusing.

doesnt matter if its true or not... but interesting followup, nonetheless... thanks.

nealmcb

@thisjosh If I want to send encrypted email to something like [email protected], and they advertise that the encryption key is in the microsoft.com DNS authenticated via DNSSEC, I'm pretty confident that I can trust the key. Whereas if it was authenticated by some CA, all of whom can claim to authenticate any cert on the planet, I know there is lots of wiggle room.

this.josh

There's no problem with local DNS caching?

Or 'confused' routers?

nealmcb

@thisjosh Not if you use DNSSEC properly, though that may not be as easy as we'd like yet

Routers would not be a risk

this.josh

Then I am missing something.

If I have a system with no DNS entries, I use dhcp to get my IP address, then I want to get a DNS entry for Microsoft.com. I don't have any keys yet, and we're not using CAs. How do I know I can trust the response?

nealmcb

22:11

@thisjosh Well, your DNS clients would have to be pre-configured with the well-known keys of .com, .org, .se etc

or perhaps just the one central key they signed recently

I should check that out...

but in the past I've pre-configured the .se root keys

this.josh

And how do you get your DNS client? Is it distributed with the OS?

nealmcb

Woah - what is this? "one of the more controversial aspects of Apple's reaction was that there was none—Apple had instructed its AppleCare and retail staff not to even acknowledge Mac Defender's existence, and not to remove it from users' infected computers."

I'm glad they've now changed that tune...

Rory Alsop

@AviD I got offered a very nice strategic, well paid, wide ranging permanent role, that I start the day after our album launch party!

@thisjosh More comedy! :-)

AviD

@RoryAlsop excellent! good for you...

Rory Alsop

@AviD Am remaining below trigger thresholds

AviD

22:20

so you'll show up your first day of work, all hungover....?

Rory Alsop

no - I will be driving the van

I will be tired though - event finishes at 3am, new job starts at 9am

AviD

ah - safe then.

designated new worker....

Rory Alsop

heh - my singer doesn't drive (it would clash with his drinking) and my bass player only has motorbikes, so the amps and cabs pretty much have to come with me

this.josh

@nealmcb And how do you get your DNS client? Is it distributed with the OS?

nealmcb

@thisjosh Well, the root anchors were first published on 15th July 2010, so by now they should be in recent OS's

Jeff Ferland

22:33

@AviD I will summarize the talks I've been to at BSides today.

... and finishing editing that other one that has been in the queue for over a week

AviD

@JeffFerland excellent! @RoryAlsop, catch that?

Rory Alsop

yay

nealmcb

Talk on tampering with seals at BlackHat now - I think the demos are coming soon :)

AviD

seals? I hear that trained dolphins are good against submarines, too.

at least, according to red alert 2....

Rory Alsop

but how do they taste?

AviD

22:39

and, even more importantly in light of todays developments, do they move after being dead?

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I think that food should stay dead after being deaded.

Jeff Ferland

@nealmcb They had a tampering contest at DEFCON last year. Every seal that was tested was defeated.

AviD

probably by a squid. I hear those things are vicious.

Rory Alsop

@AviD definitely!

AviD

but wait, isnt defcon in the desert?

Rory Alsop

(it's okay - they can wear wetsuits)

Jeff Ferland

22:41

@AviD it's vegas. They import them anyway.

AviD

@JeffFerland yeah, but its no trick to defeat a dolphin in the desert.

seal, whatever.

Jeff Ferland

I'm out until the talk is over. Anti-anti-forensics talk now.

AviD

@JeffFerland and how to circumvent them?

reminds me of the whole DNS pinning issue from a while back.... anti-anti-anti-DNS pinning, and how to get around it.

Scott Pack

You're a DNS pinning issue.

Ninefingers

@RoryAlsop @nealmcb @otherblogpeople I've written another blog post based on a question I answered. It's designed to be a little light hearted and easy reading. So, this is a request for comments, critiques, suggestions, squids, turtles, whatever.

Rory Alsop

22:50

@Ninefingers will get a look tomorrow morning

AviD

@ScottPack this is for you: collegehumor.com/video/6578269/wish-i-had-a-portal-gun

Rory Alsop

I'm about off to bed

ttfn all

oh - episode 10 podcast - soundtrack by me:-)

finux.co.uk

enjoy

Scott Pack

Sweet dreams gramps

nealmcb

@JeffFerland The guy that's talking was on the winning lockpick team

5 locks down, no evidence yet, not sure how many to go....

Ninefingers

@Gilles @nealmcb on security theatre (or theater) I think focusing on the TSA might be a bit off our topic (feel free to disagree. I also think Bruce Schneier really has it covered...) but there is enough theatre in IT security to span millions of blog posts, from the media portrayal of anonymous to security firm CEOs predicting things like "cyber warfare might cause armageddon!".

nealmcb

23:01

(why don't we get a link to post a followup to our own comments? Can I link to it anyway, by figuring out the unique id?)

AviD

@Ninefingers I kind of agree with you, but I also kind of would like to for us to be able to show comparisons between ITsec and tsa.

I guess I'm very strongly ambivalent.

Ninefingers

@nealmcb I think it might make a good lead in as an example of where doing something and then appending the words secure/security doesn't necessarily make it so

Gilles

@Ninefingers TSA passes the Schneier test but not the Security Engineering test (SE 2nd ed has a section on terrorism, but it's a 10000-foot view, as if the topic was related but not really in)

@AviD I'm in favor. I see the danger of becoming a “bitch about TSA” forum, but I think the requirement for acting like a pro is enough to keep discussions at a serious level

AviD

23:21

@Gilles well we already know your opinion ;)

I think the upside is making it security and risk SE, but I still feel we'd be better as "infosec and inforisk". though the risk part is pretty much similar...

Ninefingers

@AviD @Gilles I agree with Gilles' point about acting like a pro. That requirement alone can make a question whose topic is seemingly well within our remit a bad one and so get it closed.

AviD

@Ninefingers well, thats always true.

though there are topics which are more... prone to garnering bad askers.

Ninefingers

As to the TSA side of things, as I say, I think it's ok to mention the TSA when relevant to ITSec, but I'm not sure a pure TSA question is on topic really, as things stand.

AviD

@Ninefingers well, of course no one is saying TSA is off-limits, if it's relevant to an ITsec question.

Except the FBI...

as an example question: how to protect your laptop/flash drive/etc from TSA...

Ninefingers

Haha... I'm stating the obvious a bit, but I'm getting to my point, honest...!

nealmcb

23:27

Looks like I'll miss the talk on "Aerial Cyber Apocalypse: If we can do it... they can too."

Hope there's a good demo of that one :)

Ninefingers

I did think after the initial crypto.se progress that it might not make public beta, given the slowdown in questions, so I did wonder if we, here, might absorb some of it, given it's basically Thomas answering all the questions anyway. Well not all of them, but you know what I mean

Gilles

@nealmcb The default UI doesn't allow it because it's not something you'd do often. There's nothing magic about the reply action, it just inserts :12345 at the beginning of the post. The number is the one at the end of the permalink of the message you want to reply to.

Ninefingers

but there are some mathematical areas of cryptography at a basic level that really have no home anywhere else, yet if absorbed here would feel out of place

Gilles

SE Chat Modifications — Keyboard navigation and commands for chat lets you reply to any message, and much more

Ninefingers

My gut feeling is that physical security, if we took on all of security, might feel a bit like that

nealmcb

23:30

@AviD I'm still wondering if there is a question that would make sense on the proposed "physical security" site that wouldn't here. There may be some but I'd like folks that oppose Gilles' proposal to list some examples

Gilles

@Ninefingers We're discussing broadening the scope of the site

AviD

@Ninefingers cstheory claimed that it would be ontopic there, assuming its an advanced enough level

nealmcb

Anyway, I've gotta run.... Thanks folks. Later!

Gilles

@nealmcb As things stand, locksmithing is clearly off-topic here

nealmcb

@Gilles Why do you say that? It has gotten support several times IIRC

AviD

23:32

@Gilles I agree. @RoryAlsop posted a few on his meta answer....

such as bouncers, and security guards. Also things like martial arts (for personal defense)

Ninefingers

@Gilles yep, that's what I'm getting to and locksmithing is quite a good example - is it at home amongst questions about browsers, malware and security policy? I think it could be argued either way. and @Avid's just provided some further examples

Gilles

@Ninefingers I'm torn about the crypto site. Pretty much everything there is covered by either Mathematics or Theoretical Computer Science or IT Security, but having a single site where everyone can interact is also important.

AviD

@nealmcb partial support, and equal opposition. currently it is offtopic.

nealmcb

@AviD I think it would depend on the question. Anyway... later.....

Jeff Ferland

BSides maybe > DEFCON for talks

Ninefingers

23:34

@Gilles so was I when I initially committed, but I think having a site people can ask basic stuff is also important - not all that's been asked is truly at home on Mathematics, although IT Sec could have covered that I guess. Basic questions on crypto theory are most definitely not on topic on TCS.

Gilles

@AviD Martial arts… tough one. I'd say it's like the math of crypto: off-topic here, but the applications can be on-topic (e.g. deciding whether to go unarmed or not in some circumstances, as it's a matter of risk analysis and psychology rather than the technique of moving your body)

@Ninefingers SE really needs a computer science site, but it's pretty much hopeless given the current Area 51 process (there are too many people who don't understand that TCS is not a computer science site, it's a research-level computer science site)

Ninefingers

The whole point of SE isn't really to define an ontology and split topics up, it's about people being able to ask basic level questions as well as the more complicated ones.

AviD

@Gilles umm... Theoretical Computer Science?

Gilles

@AviD case in point…

Ninefingers

@AviD If you asked the difference between O(2^n) and O(n^2) there, it'd be closed as not research level.

AviD

23:37

@Gilles the risk analysis, sure, the psychology of attackers, probably. the use of physical defense techniques? or weapons? I would absolutely have trouble with any site that tries to cover both.

Mana

Yeah, TCS is...pretty much impossible to use if you're a student

AviD

@Ninefingers ah, so you're saying a basics cs site.

Ninefingers

@AviD not quite... an all-level CS site.

Gilles

@Ninefingers that, and sometimes covering a community. SO = developers. SF = sysadmins. TCS = CS researchers.

@AviD Exactly: I'd expect the risk analysis and psychology aspects to be ok on Security.SE, but there would be another site about physical defense techniques (Sport.SE or Martial-arts.SE)

Mana

The problem is that since TCS is a really in-depth research-level computer science site...where do the more basic computer science questions go?

Gilles

23:40

16

Q: Where on SE to discuss computer science

What is the right site on the Stack Exchange network for computer science questions? None of the answers I can think of are remotely satisfying: Stack Overflow: Even if CS questions are acceptable (some get closed, which I think shows they're not getting the right audience), where is the exper...

discussion area51 site-rec computer-science

There've been at least 3 attempts to create a general CS site on Area 51, and they were all quickly closed by people who did not understand that it would not be a duplicate of TCS

Ninefingers

@Gilles indeed, and there is a community of people not being served - CS students, and developers, not all of whom (myself included) studied CS or are necessarily interested in highly theoretical topics like the intricacies of lambda calculus.

AviD

@Gilles true 'nuff.

and what is the usual answer? go ask on SO/P.SE?

Gilles

By the way, if anyone wants to try again, feel free to contact me. I hang around on unix chat and scifi chat pretty much all the time

@AviD Ask on SO, but questions without code tend to get closed or get poor answers

Or ask on P.SE, but CS questions get awful answers most of the time

Ninefingers

For the record, I don't really have an opinion on the two-level split vs one level split debate. TCS got enough momentum to graduate and become a fully fledged site, so if that works then why fix it?

Gilles

I've been building a list of potential CS.SE questions. Maybe one of these days I'll try to make a proposal specifically out of questions that were asked on both SO and P.SE in some form and didn't get decent answers.

It would be easier if it was only SO (I'm sure I've got 5 that were closed as off-topic by now). But with P.SE in the equation, if I go and say “P.SE can answer that but the answers are terrible”, I'm going to bruise some egos

Mind you, an argument against CS on SO or P.SE is that they don't have LaTeX markup. How can you do science without LaTeX?

Ninefingers

23:48

That's another thorny issue. MathJax is a bit of a burden on load time and bandwidth and I can understand discouraging it where possible, but I agree, sometimes it just can't be done without it.

AviD

well... all this talk about math stuff and latex gloves is making me yawny. gnite fellers...

Ninefingers

but coming back to us, I guess we need to decide if a separate physical security community could exist, if area 51 would allow it, or if the community we currently have would lose out if we expanded to include it. I think actually, the more I think about it, @Gilles comment on it being about community is probably more important than topic.

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