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00:07
@Luc We are talking about one big file (18 GB). If two versions are encrypted with the same IV, you will know at which point they diverge, so it gives you more than just knowledge that they are not identical: it will show you where difference begins.
For an extra version where the file is split into 8 kB blocks encrypted separately, the leak will tell you which blocks have changed and which have not (and where is the first changed bit in each block), which can reveal a lot more.
Luc
Luc
okay I see
All of this constitutes traffic analysis. My usual example is that traffic analysis allowed Americans to predict the Japanese attack on Midway, and they could stop their advance.
Without traffic analysis we would all speak German and/or Russian.
So mind your IV !
Luc
Luc
@ThomasPornin Though the purpose behind my question was more in general about remote backups. When you have to use a different IV every time you make a new backup set, you'll basically be uploading your entire disk (or anything in the backup anyway) every single time
In that case, leaking which files were changed (changing IV each time a file gets changed) might be a better option
00:25
Morning all :)
Morning kangaroo.
One day, PHP will be the most secure language and no one will ever despise it.
:)
It does sound like "When I grow up, I wanna be an astronaut", doesn't it?
00:32
A bit.
 
1 hour later…
01:38
@Simon PHP is not at fault, the developers they are
@HamZa Well, it kind of makes the language at fault, doesn't it?
@Simon give me a single fault ?
@HamZa Taking x years to patch bugs
Which obviously goes back to the developers but still, they are the reason why it exists.
@Simon not sure.
Would phpmyadmin count as a flaw or just poor practices?
01:49
@Simon Anyone with some knowledge in C could fix bugs. The source code is online. It may be a hurdle for beginners, but I hope there will be more persons contributing to it. For example there is this site phpinternalsbook.com to learn about the internals of PHP, this will boost your knowledge and should get you started.
@ScottPack Haha, let's not blame PHP for that.
@HamZa Of course but do you think the average Joe will go through the code to fix bugs?
And unless a shitload of people actually test your patches, you'll never know if it created more or if it was done properly.
@Simon nope, that's the problem. But to be honest, I don't know any other language than PHP. So maybe I'm not in the right position to defend it
@ScottPack phpmyadmin with the default no password lol ?
@HamZa Meh, web-based I know PHP and ASP.NET, that's it.
01:53
@Simon Well then, I heard some guys saying that ruby is better ?
@HamZa People are nuts for Python/RoR. I'll have to look into that one day.
For a starter maybe ?
http://ruby.learncodethehardway.org/book/
http://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/
@ScottPack phpmyadmin is great in dev, but you're right, it shouldn't be in a prod system.
@HamZa Oh, you can set up passwords for it. That won't help with the unauthenticated arbitrary command execute problems.
Hm. So I wrote up my dedup question. I suppose I should wait until tomorrow to post it.
@HamZa Oh there's enough documentation, the lack of time is the reason why I'm not picking it up.
01:56
@ScottPack Well drop some lines in a .htaccess and block access from all IP's except for those authorised :)
And binding it to a different port/URL
But it's still not a good practice.
Limiting by address sounds like a better idea.
@HamZa Compensating controls? Insanity!
@ScottPack I wanna know the most insane phpmyadmin exploit you've come across.
@ScottPack well you can also password protect it with htaccess :p
NOW.
01:59
@Simon exploit-db.com ?
@Simon Please further define your question.
@ScottPack Some situations must have happened if you hate it that much. What would they be?
@Simon Look at this beauty
@HamZa I prefer real-world anecdotes though :P
Hate's a pretty strong word, really. I don't hate phpMyAdmin, but I do find it as an indicator. Generally speaking using phpMyAdmin to manage mysqld, as opposed to mysql, can show non-professionals in a professional role.
However, about half of the Linux system compromises I've investigated have come through phpmyadmin.
02:04
@ScottPack Wait, what's the difference between mysqld and mysql?
One is a server and one is a client.
Oh.
My favorite, though, was that we discovered a Windows Server 2003 box participating in a botnet. It was a departmental server with relatively low access rights. We brought it in and I was next up on the rotation.
Did you find out how it got infected?
It was running a system inventory service. Pretty not bad service, really, lots of cool features.
The Windows version of it is a single installer that, apparently, bundles XAMPP.
A full blown XAMPP installation. A version of XAMPP that was over a year old when this thing was installed (about a year before the compromise). Funny enough, that version of XAMPP also included a really fucking old version of phpMyAdmin.
02:11
lolz
Oh god.
Did you nuke it?
That was one of my recommendations, yes.
15
A: "SHA-256" vs "any 256 bits of SHA-512", which is more secure?

fgrieuSHA-512 truncated to 256 bits is as safe as SHA-256 as far as we know. The NIST did basically that with SHA-512/256 introduced March 2012 in FIPS 180-4 (because it is faster than SHA-256 when implemented in software on many 64-bit CPUs). SHA-224 is just as safe as using 224 bits of SHA-256, becau...

@D3C4FF can't be helped xD
When I've read this article http://blog.ircmaxell.com/2013/07/disclosure-wordpress-wpdb-sql-injection.html
I though damn, they were right. WP is crap. They still use mysql_ functions
02:40
@Adnan @ThomasPornin Here you go. Feel free to go get yourself some reps. security.stackexchange.com/q/39449/618
 
5 hours later…
07:26
Can someone check my calculations security.stackexchange.com/questions/39450/…
07:55
@Adnan poke poke poke
08:07
This is too broad for security.SE right?
0
Q: How to build a crypto-station?

toreatorThe first: it must be disconnected from any network, to prevent leak. For power supply should be used a special UPS with filters. What about TEMPEST attacks, how should be enclosed crypto-station? I imagine that all of construction or just a room closed by RF proof screen. Is there way to s...

@CodesInChaos yea agreed
@LucasKauffman For GPU hashing performance I like hashcat.net/oclhashcat-plus
@LucasKauffman Morning
@CodesInChaos yea I use that too, I don't like their new mask option though
@HamZa UTF-8 is the one true character encoding
08:28
@HamZa You needed a blogpost to come to that conclusion? :p
FYI
This is today
@Adnan I thought they were compromised yesterday or the day before?
@LucasKauffman Apparently, today they found out their database has been dumped.
Or they just remembered to send the emails today
@Adnan or it was just one giant mailqueue :D
@LucasKauffman Most likely that
09:09
morning
@Adnan I'm wondering if they meant encrypted or hashed password ...
> The passwords are not stored in plain text, they are stored as salted hashes.
According to their official announcement.
@Adnan ok
@PeeHaa lol I need to see it !
10:12
Shouldn't have had the second pork pie. 31% rda saturates...in each pie.
rda what?
@LucasKauffman 31% of an adults recommended daily allowance of saturated fat...and I had two.
@lynks so you can safely have a third!
@lynks What's the problem there? You've had 62% RDA
@LucasKauffman I like your thinking.
10:24
@lynks Waaaait, have you had them at the same time?
@Adnan I woke up, got to work, opened the fridge and ate two. Having not yet had a meal today, this is bad.
@lynks I always force myself to eat at least an apple before going to work
makes you stop having the munchies
@LucasKauffman yeah you're probably right, a cigarette has been my breakfast for more than a decade now :/
@lynks did you know you actually have 27% more chance of heart conditions if you don't eat breakfast
D:
considering you also smoke, that chance increases only more and more...
@lynks I didn't do that before either, but just by taking that habbit I already lost 3 kg
@LucasKauffman I will have to try this.
10:30
not sure if you are a bit on the fat side?
but it's worth the effort
NOOO!! Ubuntu Forums seem to be using the default VB hash
md5(md5(password) + salt)
@Adnan wow
The salt is a randomly generated 3-char string.
what's a char in that context?
i.e. how many different salts are there?
and how many users does the forum have?
@CodesInChaos I'll be digging in the VB source tonight after work, but I'd assume it's the string representation of some HEX value.
They probably hash time() + random() and take the first 3 characters.
10:42
so... it appears I've bought a new toilet tank that comes in the homeopathic mode and doesn't wanna release enough water to actually flush, it just dilutes the solution to infinity... any idea what I need to move in it to flush? I've been trying to move the position of that lever and the "float ball" (or however it's called)... no luck :(
@Adnan Not sure what worries me most, the fact they are using MD5 or the fact they are using VB :/
@CodesInChaos According to a snapshot taken on July 19th
> Members: 1,830,961
that's defintely going to yield some hashes
as long as the number of salts isn't much smaller than the number of users there isn't much to worry about in that regard
the difference between a mediocre salt and a good salt is perhaps a factor of two
which is much smaller than difference between different hash functions or iteration counts
10:48
@CodesInChaos Exactly, I'm much more worried about the idiotic hashing scheme
@Adnan tbh, how long has the forum been around?
back in the day that hashing algorithm might have been considered secure
and the problem with hashes is that it's quite hard to migrate them to a new form :p
on the other hand they could just migrate all hashes by doing PBKDF2(md5(md5(password+salt))
or bcrypt or scrypt
and then keep that as the hashing algorithm
@LucasKauffman that would require to ask all users to reset their passwords
@LucasKauffman Exactly. That's pretty much the standard when it comes to migrating old weak hashing schemes to new ones.
@HamZa No.
@HamZa nope
@Adnan owh I see, hashing the hash ...
10:56
exactly
hash-ception
not sure if that is secure ?
@HamZa what would the flaw be?
@HamZa It's as secure as the underlying password.
It just makes the hasing more expensive
@LucasKauffman was confused with a post
71
A: Is "double hashing" a password less secure than just hashing it once?

ircmaxellI almost don't want to answer, because everyone with an answer here is right to some degree. But I also feel that everyone is also wrong to some degree as well. To those who say it's secure, they are correct in general. "Double" hashing (or the logical expansion of that, iterating a hash functio...

11:18
0
Q: New toilet tank in "homeopathic" mode, how do I make it flush?

TildalWaveProblem / symptoms: I've bought a new water tank (nothing fancy inside, just what I'd describe as "the usual, run-off-the-mill mechanism"*), but it doesn't flush properly, as it doesn't release enough water and it only ends up mixing the water in the toilet, endlessly diluting it (thus my humorou...

It's driving me nuts ^ . If you know the answer, or have suggestions, I'd appreciate it :)
11:30
@HamZa that seems bogus
he's saying that repeated rounds of md5 are bad because of collisions
then he goes on to propose repeated rounds of f where f(x) = md5(x || md5(x))
why would f have fewer collisions than md5?
@Gilles because you mix in the original password multiple times, so you stop the gradual entropy drain
but it's not like the effect matters for realistic iteration counts
Even with a narrow hash like MD5 and a billion iterations entropy should stay above 2^100
@CodesInChaos oh, I see, he's not iterating the f I wrote above
so collisions don't matter much
he's doing g(x) = md5(initial_input || md5(x))
at least that's what PBKDF2 does
11:47
Isn't he the guy behind the new secure password hash API in PHP 5.5?
yes
did a pretty good job with that API
@Adnan yes he is
12:02
@Gilles So what he's saying, is it correct ?
Cmon @LucasKauffman, you are better than this!
0
A: Secure alternative to Skype?

Lucas KauffmanThe man behind PGP, Phil Zimmermann created Silent Circle which does just that.

did Phil actually create it? He designed the ZRTP protocol, but I don't think he did much work on silent circle
@TerryChia You are right, I'm just a dirty repwhore
I'll delete my answer
@CodesInChaos +1 for the PHP hash code review
With all respect to Terry and Lucas, but yours was the only one to actually address the question.
@Adnan I understand...I'm just going to sit here in this corner...and maybe cry a little.
12:10
@LucasKauffman Save space for me. :(
Oh come on you two, you know I still love you both.
@TerryChia there there terry, he can't hurt us here in our corner
@Lucas :O :O :O
You're now ahead of Hendrik
12:14
@Adnan ...
@ScottPack Olipro vs Ian in the commsroom, get your popcorn ready.
@HamZa I've opened a bottle to celebrate Lucas' achievement.
@Adnan thanks ^^
@Adnan I see
@HamZa as far as I understand it, he's correct to point out the issue but incorrect as to its relevance: the number of iterations is negligible against the threshold where collisions become an issue. @CodesInChaos or @ThomasPornin would know better
12:24
@Gilles Well to be honest, I don't really understand the internals of hashing. What I do know is that I would never do something like that in a realworld application.
Personally I prefer 256 bit hashes, where collisions obviously don't matter
@HamZa All you need to be concerned with is if the hash in question is a Thomas Pornin Certified Algorithm.
2
@TerryChia hahaha
in practice you simply use PBKDF2, bcrypt, scrypt or one of the SHA-2 based crypt variants (not SHA-2 itself)
@CodesInChaos I always consider bcrypt
12:32
@TerryChia that could be a real certificate
I'd like that
@HamZa bcrypt is always my first choice because the libraries for it (when available) are dead simple to use.
@TerryChia indeed
There aren't many scrypt libraries out there for now so that's a real negative point for that algorithm.
@TerryChia where I work, they use sha1(salt. password)
It appears I've been nominated for the mod position on Space Exploration... I'd really like to talk with one of the mods here, preferably @RoryAlsop that's also nominated there, so I get a better impression what all that involves and if I'd be able to deliver :?
12:40
@TildalWave Dammit NO! You will have mod powers on chat. :(
@TerryChia what, any chat? hmmm.... not necessarily safe :)) then again, we do have @AviD and @ManishEarth, and we're all fine... still LOL
@TerryChia Actually that sucks. Having mod powers on some 100-question site gives power over a big-ass chat.
@Adnan you mean chats you're in?
@TildalWave Need to chat?
2 days ago, by Adnan
@Gilles Assassinate all space exploration mods and key members?
12:43
I is beta mod too, so I can give an overview
@ManishEarth He wants @RoryA. He doesn't like you.
@TildalWave I think you would be a good mod.
:D
@LucasKauffman Kidding aside, this. @TildalWave is a damn patient person.
@Adnan My loyalty to the mod cabal > loyalty to the DMZ. If you hurt one of us I shall WREAK HAVOC!!!
@ManishEarth Be careful or I'll send The Bear after you.
12:45
@TerryChia I am :p?
@TerryChia Lol :P r[0] would work too, he's got two beta diamonds (to be fair, one of them is a late appointment so he got into the scene at a later stage)
@LucasKauffman Well, no. You suck. I meant @TildalWave.
@TerryChia fak u
@LucasKauffman :D
@TerryChia ftfy :P
12:46
Why does SE send mod appointments only to the email and not via stackexchange inbox -_-
missed some important emails that way, because I registered with a seldom checked address
@CodesInChaos you got a mod appointment email? Where?
board game (because I was active on the now defunct go site) and crypto. Found the emails a year or so later when I checked the email account XD
luckily I now use an active email, or I would have missed the DMCA notice as well
@CodesInChaos if you're a mod, your contact address is supposed to work
@Gilles When I first registered on stackoverflow, it was just yet-another-forum for me
so I chose an appropriate dummy address
@CodesInChaos LOL what did you do :p? (DMCA wise)
12:53
@Gilles When you hash repeatedly with a n-bit hash function, the space of possible state values reduced to an internal cycle of average size 2^(n/2), but you reach it only after (on average) 2^(n/2) iterations. With MD5 (n = 128) this hardly matters. With SHA-256 (n = 256) you cannot even hope being subject to any real space reduction effect.
@TerryChia LOL still, as any mere mortal, I could only take a single successful attempt on my life, and I'd hope I wore brown trousers for the occasion :)
@LucasKauffman That ciphercloud issue. One of the affected posts was mine.
@CodesInChaos ciphercloud?
@ManishEarth could do with a bit of description what would mod duties be on site like Space Exploration yes... and I wouldn't mind your personal opinion either
79
Q: CipherCloud DMCA notice

CodesInChaosCipherCloud just filed a DMCA notice with stack exchange to take down the question How is CipherCloud doing homomorphic encryption? (now deleted by stackexchange). Since I obviously can't post the full question+answers here, a short summary of what it contained: The question itself asks if/how...

12:55
ah was that the one where you debunked their crypto and they went "Remove the posts to hide our incompetence"
yes that one
But no, they're not incompetent. They just demo weak crypto that doesn't represent the real crypto :)
@ThomasPornin hmm, do you know of any studies into small-cycles? I wonder if a hash-chain vulnerability of some kind could be engineered.
@lynks To my knowledge, there is no known "small cycle" in MD5 or any of the other usual hash functions. This does not mean that small cycles don't exist, only that we do not know if they exist.
Note that if it would be quite hard to find a small cycle without having an efficient collision attack at the same time; so "small cycles", if known, ought to be widely known ("publish or perish").
short cycles probably exist but are hard to find
13:12
the hash space clearly has cycles, and given that collisions exist, those cycles must have multiple 'entry points'. There will, however, be some values left over that do not act as entry points to the larger cycles. Eventually you should be able to get down to a small number of hashes that are either fixed, or are members of small cycles.
I'm just thinking aloud, clearly the numbers are too big to be feasible.
@ThomasPornin can I ask you a quick question, you know banks these days use card readers which can sign a transaction, but how are these actually implemented? Is the challenge which is generated to be signed created based on time+transaction id+some cryptographic random number?
@lynks The point, though, is that when you start from a random point, probability of reaching any other cycle than the "big cycle" of size 2^(n/2) is very small.
@adnan, ignoring the past few months of crypto fail? — D3C4FF 21 mins ago
@D3C4FF I'm sorry, but your comment made me really angry. The only reason is that it conveys a certain amount of ignorance that I didn't expect from someone like you.
@LucasKauffman In France, smart cards use a "signature" which is in fact a MAC; the card has a secret key that the bank also has. The MAC is computed over a packet which includes the transaction details and (at least) some time stamps.
13:17
@LucasKauffman Some of crypto cat's bugs very quite dumb, so that certainly can make one lose faith in it, even after they're fixed
I seem to be attracted to web services that get hacked and have to email all their customers to tell them to change their passwords.
@Ladadadada Ubuntu Forums?
But it's quite possible that I'd produce equally dumb bugs in my own software, just different ones.
Over the last two days I have received emails from OVH, Ubuntu forums and two from Apple telling me to change all my passwords.
@ThomasPornin don't you need to provide some random number or is that not necessary because you have a MAC which only you and the bank know?
13:19
@Adnan IIRC, some of the flaws are really stupid though.
lost one of my github accounts to such a hack
they invalidated the password, and I don't have access to the email anymore
@LucasKauffman Randomness is not necessary, neither for signature or for MAC.
It is required that banks filter out duplicates, but they already do that anyway. Thus, timestamps.
Note that a lot of the security comes from the assumption that the payment terminal is honest and follows the protocol. This is why these beasts are tamper-resistant, apply active defence mechanisms, and are expensive.
Everyday, everyone of us uses a software that was compromised at a point in the past. Vulnerabilities get patched in a professional manner, we update.
Let's all stop using Chrome
13:24
@Adnan "Professional manner" is the real point. Ultimately, what we need is that developers keep cool and don't deploy crypto "enhancements" without thinking them through.
While most software has some bugs, you can try to gauge the competency of the developer by them. My impression is that Nadim isn't the best coder for security stuff, but that he reacts well to vulnerabilities he's told about.
For the detect-patch cycle to work, vendors must not create new vulnerabilities faster than reviewer find and plug them.
@CodesInChaos And the last part is equally important.
@ThomasPornin I meant like for online transactions
but well, we're all learning. The problem is that cryptocat got popular a bit early
13:26
Cryptocat's developers have demonstrated in the past that they were quite overzealous on the creativity part, which is a worry. But I believe in redemption and they might amend their ways.
@Adnan The difference being this is an application which is entirely about the strength of it's encryption. facepalm level flaws don't really reassure me.
Will it get better in the future? Probably. I don't really have confidence in it at this very moment though.
I think that cryptocat will become a good choice in a few years, but it's a bit immature for now.
@LucasKauffman Ah, for that, I have no detail. None of my banks indulges in that kind of things.
I hope there is some signature mechanism.
The biggest problem, though, is that the customer does not really see what is sent to the card.
@TerryChia I wonder how common face palm level flaws are, even with competent programmers
The customer has to trust that his computer is not infected with malware which logs the PIN code and sends altered amounts to the card.
13:29
@ThomasPornin I know you have to enter some details about the transaction followed by a number (which seems to be related to time) and then you need provide your pin after which you get a number and you then return that number to the bank
so I guess it might be similar to what you explained, I'm just wondering if it's actually secure :P
@CodesInChaos Probably very common. :)
for example tarsnap hit a CTR mode nonce reuse which is pretty dumb, but I think its developer is competent
@ThomasPornin it's done with a seperate card reader which doesn't connect to the computer
@ThomasPornin like this:
13:30
I'm not really saying Cryptocat is the king of all crypto
@LucasKauffman Context, context... always the bugger, pushing facts into the middle of otherwise fine arguments.
All I'm saying is this is a natural stage in the evolution of such solutions
There has been some security issues, but they're not that bad.
@LucasKauffman If the user has to type things back and forth, then it probably is symmetric-crypto only. Asymmetric crypto (signatures...) are too large for that.
@Terry To be more specific, the latest DeCryptocat. You see, although there was a crypto problem, it's still happened under SSL.
The problem is bad, yes. But it's not extremely bad.
@Adnan Sure, that's natural. But I won't recommend them to people until it has gone through the test of time.
13:33
@ThomasPornin I can make a question out of it, I'm really curious behind the crypto, is it more on topic here or on crypto.SE
Like @CodesInChaos said, I think the product is still immature for serious usage at this moment.
13:44
@Adnan Fair enough, no offence intended. But people recommended using such software in an environment where 'peoples lives are at risk' (it was widely recommended for activist types etc). That's not really appropriate since its basically some dudes experimental pet-project.
@D3C4FF I completely understand that. I've probably overreacted to your comment.
@Adnan Maybe, i can't tell. I've had a few to many free beers tonight :P
@ThomasPornin @CodesInChaos crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/9408/… If it's off topic for crypto it can be moved over here :)
@Adnan I get your point though. People make mistakes, no matter who they are, and they learn. And i agree, Nadim did the right thing and fixed the bugs and admitted his failings. Hopefully he learnt from it, and hopefully no-one was terribly impacted as a result. On the flip side, with revelations about the NSA and stuff recording 'everything' it worries me a little bit if the crypto is 'safe' until someone finds a flaw and the NSA can go back and decrypt all the things.
@D3C4FF FWIW and if you hadn't read it already, the security issue happened under SSL. So your messages are only at risk if Cryptocat's servers are compramised within an hour of the conversation. (Encrypted messages are removed from the server after one hour of the conversation end)
13:52
@Adnan Yeah, so in the end with any luck its all okay :)
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