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01:28
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A: If Jesus is arch-angel Michael then he was created?

LesleyThis is my trinitarian response to your question and the points you have raised: The short answer to your main question is that if the pre-mortal Jesus (i.e., the Word or Logos) is Michael the archangel, and is coming back as Michael the archangel, then he was created. The Bible confirms that all...

Because Jesus will shout out with the voice of the arch angel and the dead in Chirst will rise first, you have not also explained why Daniel says Michael the prince of your people and also because it's only Michael who wrestles with the devil in Revelation and overcomes him
Only Jesus challenged the devil through the church and also in heaven
There is no evidence that the word protoktistos existed until much later than scripture was written
How exactly does Jesus use the voice of the archangel if he is not the archangel?
Re: “worship the son” we cannot gloss over the fact that the word translated “worship”is used in the simple case of bowing to a person in authority. It does not exclusively pertain to the highest form of adoration due exclusively to the almighty
@FewAgainstMany-Israel - I have edited my answer in response to your comments. However, I have family about to arrive and I have to cook our evening meal. I am signing out for today.
@Lesley, I think you should answer Kris, how exactly does Jesus use the voice of the arch-angel if he is mot the arch angel?
@Kris At Luke 4:8, "And Jesus answered and said to him, "It is written, "You shall worship/proskuneo the Lord your God and serve Him only." Then at Hebrews 1:6 you have God the Father speaking and saying of His Son, "And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, "And let all the angels "worship/proskuneo" HIM, that is Jesus Christ. The same word is used in both verses. Also Kris, if Jesus is Michael the arc angel why would God the Father say that all the other angels should worship Michael, another angel?
01:28
@Mr.Bond First, we have to understand what Paul meant here by worship. He used the Greek word pro·sky·neʹo. Unger’s Bible Dictionary says that this word literally means to ‘kiss the hand of someone in token of reverence or to do homage.’ An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W. E. Vine, says that this word “denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to man . . . or to God.” In Bible times pro·sky·neʹo often included literally bowing down before someone of high stature
@Kris: In actual scripture the word archangel is used only twice; once here and once in Jude where it's a direct quote from the apocrypha, and there are no older references from which to draw. It is difficult to construct the word meaning accurately. The number of archangels is not fixed even in protestant Christianity; thus we cannot exclude the meaning here is "voice is from the form of the archangel".
@Kris. You said, "First we have to understand what Paul meant here by worship." How do you know what Paul meant? Strong's Lexicon # for worship is G4352. Yes, it can mean to "kiss the hand" and pay homage. It can also mean actual worship or God or Jesus Christ as God, not a god as you teach. The context determines the correct use. What sense would it make for other angels to pay homage to another angel and then at vs7 the Father identifies Jesus as God? Psalm 45:6-7 is being quoted and it specifically references God. Also at Hebrews 1:10 God the Father credits the Son with creation.
@mrbond “What sense would it make for other angels to pay homage to another angels?” As the chief angel he had a higher stature. Also as the only direct creation of God.
@Kris Maybe you can explain to all of us here how it is possible for an arc angel named Michael can also be Jesus Christ the Messiah? Arc angel is a title and so is "Messiah." What you doing is making a "category" error by comparing titles to actual ontological beings. Ontological is defined as a branch of metaphysics dealing with THE NATURE OF BEING. The being/nature of an angel cannot at the same time be the being of a human being or of God for that matter. And yes, angels in the Bible can take the form of a human being but they are still angels or spiritual beings BY NATURE.
The same passage (1 Thess 4) says that Jesus will come with the sound of a trumpet. Does that mean he's a trumpet?
01:28
@RoyTinker. Really? You can’t see a difference between shouting with the voice of THE archangel and coming with the sound of a trumpet? One is clearly emanating from Jesus the other is an accompaniment
@Kris The words are literally φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου (phoneh archangelo) -- "the voice of an archangel". There is no definite article "the" for "archangel". The emphasis here is on sheer volume. Nothing on earth could be louder than the voice of an archangel and a trumpet of God. A momentous occasion accompanied by powerful sounds declaring what's happening. But there is no textual evidence from this passage to connect Christ and the archangel's identites; that line of thinking is not even close to the main point here. The only statements supporting that hypothesis are from E.G. White.
@RoyTinker. I stressed THE because there is only one chief. Notice the numerous translations that say THE biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm
The most literal translations use "an", not "the". Many translations that do use "the" have it in italics to show it was added to help the sentence make grammatical sense in English, but that it isn't there in the Greek. It's not good hermeneutics to build a doctrine on the word "the" appearing in some translations.
 
2 hours later…
03:22
@Kris The identity of Jesus as both God and Man is a big doctrine and a lot of scripture (chapters!) is there to support it. If Jesus were also an archangel, I'd expect a similarly sizable portion of scripture to be present to support and explain that. But building a doctrine on a single article that appears sometimes when translating to English and isn't there in the original is not being true to Scripture. That's adding to God's word.

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