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Bml
Bml
05:29
@JohnRennie Hi :-)
Hi :-)
 
1 hour later…
Bml
Bml
06:55
Regarding the experiment, shouldn't we have included the standard deviation in the T-period measurements?
@JohnRennie And so we cannot make a T-k graph, obtained by simply substituting the values of T into k?
When you are using a graph to analyse experimental data you generally want to graph your raw data, or very close to the raw data. That is, you are graphing the things that you measured.
In this case we measured the length 𝓁 and we measured the time T, so those are the things you graph.
There are two reasons for this.
Firstly you are often wanting to check that your data obeys the equation you think it does. In this case our theory says that T² ∝ 𝓁, and we test that by graphing T² against 𝓁 and checking that we get a straight line (which we do).
Secondly the graph can do a lot of calculation for you, and in a way that minimises errors.
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie We could have also made a graph with r and T^2 and found k by substituting the average of the lengths, right? That is, using r instead of \ell?
When you have a lot of data points on a graph the best fit straight line combines all the points so their errors tend to cancel, and this improves the overall error. As a rough guide if you have N points on the graph the errors are reduced by a factor of √N due to the averaging out of the errors.
@Bml We could do, yes. It's just that in this experiment we kept 𝑟 constant and varied 𝓁.
We could have done a different experiment where we kept 𝓁 constant and varied 𝑟.
Varying 𝓁 is easy of course, since we can easily change the length of the wire we use. We cannot change 𝑟 except by finding a different wire with the different radius.
Bml
Bml
07:12
@JohnRennie So we don't have to calculate the standard deviation in period T or length l?
In general, what kind of error should we calculate in this experiment?
We know there is some error in our measurements of 𝓁 and T, but the advantage of a graph is that the error in the gradient can be estimated from the scatter in the points.
So we don't need to put in the errors in T and 𝓁 by hand because they are estimated from the graph.
So we find there is about a 5% error in the gradient obtained using linear regression just from the graph.
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie There was an equation to calculate the gradient and the error, if you remember we analyzed it a few months ago...
Yes, that's what I used in my spreadsheet.
Bml
Bml
In "Statistical properties"
I just don't remember what \epsilon_i^2 was.
@JohnRennie Also I wonder, why did we calculate the error in r if we didn't use it?
07:28
@Bml We can go into the details of how linear regression works if you want, but we should probably concentrate on the problem first.
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie OK
In real life no-one cares how linear regression works anyway. We just plug the results into a computer and it does the hard work :-)
In this case I used a regression program I wrote about 30 years ago!
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie Unbelievable!
@Bml The point of the graph is to find the gradient 𝑔.
And from the theory we know:
g = 4𝜋²I/kr⁴
Yes?
Bml
Bml
Yes
07:32
So we are going to use 𝑟 because we have to use it to calculate 𝑘. That is we rearrange to get:
k = 4𝜋²I/gr⁴
Yes?
Bml
Bml
Yes
We are told there is negligible error in I, so the only two properties in that equation that have an error are 𝑔 and 𝑟.
And from the graph the error in 𝑔 is about 5%.
I've forgotten what the error in 𝑟 is ...
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie 0.83%
@JohnRennie Wasn't it 4.3%?
4.3% ≈ 5% :-)
After all that 4.3% is only an estimate of the error based on four points.
Anyhow the percentage error in r⁴ is four times the error in 𝑟, so the error in r⁴ is 3.32%
Yes?
Bml
Bml
Yes
07:43
So to get the % error in the product gr⁴ we just add the % errors to get 7.6%.
And the % error in 1/gr⁴ is the same i.e. 7.6%
So our final result is that the error in 𝑘 is ± 7.6%
Or we'd probably just round this to 8%
Does this all make sense?
Bml
Bml
Yes, thanks
OK :-)
If you ask any experienced experimental physicist to analyse data the very first thing they will do is draw a graph!
 
1 hour later…
Bml
Bml
08:53
@JohnRennie Hi :-)
Could you help me?
Hi :-)
What's the question?
Bml
Bml
I realized that one goal of the experiment is to calculate the error on each individual measurement... And report it on the graph! How can this be done?
Typically you draw error bars on the graph.
Bml
Bml
Error on each of the 20 values of T and \ell...
@JohnRennie Yes... I know, but how to compute every single error?
We don't need to plot all 20 values.
Well you could do I suppose, though it would make the graph exceedingly messy.
Bml
Bml
08:58
@JohnRennie One of the goals is to calculate each error on each of the 40 values, 20 of T^2 and 20 of \ell...
The errors in T and 𝓁 come from your measurement, and you have to judge how big they are. e.g. I would guess timings are only accurate to about ¹⁄₂ a second and lengths to about a millimetre.
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie My professor said that the error on each individual measurement should be calculated either by partial derivatives, or by some error propagation calculation, including the sensibility of the instrument...
@JohnRennie The problem is that I did not understand what he means.... He says that the errors on each of the 40 measurements should be different!
I'd guess your prof means you don't draw a graph i.e. you just take your parameters T, 𝓁, 𝑟 and I and calculate 𝑘 using the equation.
Then you do the usual error analysis to find the error in 𝑘.
You could do that, though I would always draw a graph.
We could add a sheet to the Google sheets document and do it that way if you want.
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie I'm not sure...He says he wants every error on each of the 40 measures!
@JohnRennie OK
I can't mind read your prof!
I can tell you how a working experimental physicist would do the analysis. If your prof wants something different then I guess you have to do what he says.
Bml
Bml
09:13
@JohnRennie He says you can't write 3.60 s because otherwise it means the error is on the last digit, when it might not even be!
Well you measured 36.0 ± 0.5 seconds for 10 oscillations. Yes?
Bml
Bml
Yes
So it's 3.60 ± 0.05 seconds for one oscillation.
If the error in the 10 measurements was 1 second then he'd have a point because the error in the time of one oscillation would be 0.1s.
Then you'd write 3.6 ± 0.1
Does this make sense?
Bml
Bml
Yes
OK :-)
So using 2 s.f. could be OK depending on what you estimate the errors as.
Bml
Bml
09:31
The problem is that he says that there will be different values for each value of T and \ell... How is this possible?
@JohnRennie How to do this?
If you look at the spreadsheet now I have added a second sheet with a calculation for one value of 𝓁 and T on it.
Can you see what I've done?
Bml
Bml
10:07
@JohnRennie No, unfortunately
Have you got the spreadsheet open?
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie Yes, I see now
My professor meant the error on each point on the graph. That is, he wants the error on the mean of each parameter...
OK :-)
Do you know how to calculate the error of a mean?
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie And after that, represent with a bar in the graph the error, that is, how far the point really deviates from the line...
@JohnRennie My professor told me about partial derivatives today, but I am not sure if that is what I knew with respect to the error of the mean. I knew another method.
If you are calculating the mean on N values then the error in the mean is the error in one value divided by √N.
Proving this is a little complicated as it involves assuming the errors are normally distributed. Just remember the result.
Since you have 5 values of 𝓁 and T the error in a single value is the error in a single value divided by √5.
Bml
Bml
10:25
@JohnRennie He also wants us to include the error of the single measurement, that is, 0.01, in this error of the mean.
You mean don't divide by √5?
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie But even more difficult: how to estimate the error on a point, given that it is the combination of T^2 and \ell?
That's easy, when you multiply or divide two values you add their percentage errors.
So if we have 𝓁/(T*T) then we add the % error in 𝓁 to 2 × the % error in T.
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie No, I mean: in addition to dividing the single measurement by \sqrt{5}, he wants us to include the error of the single measurement (0.01) in the error of the mean.
I don't understand what that means ...
Bml
Bml
10:34
@JohnRennie It means that if we put 3.6/√5, we calculate the error in the mean without taking into account the error in the single measurement (0.01), while instead the latter should be included. Or not?
> 3.6/√5
Huh?
A measurement might be something like T = 3.6 ± 0.1
Then if you take the mean of 5 values of T you'd get:
(T₁ + T₂ + T₃ + T₄ + T₅)/5 ± 0.1/√5
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie Yes
So you divide the single measurement error by √5
Bml
Bml
Wait, 3.60 ± 0.01, no?
You measured ten oscillations and that took 36 ± 1 seconds. Yes?
Bml
Bml
11:03
@JohnRennie 10 oscillations every two revolutions, so five oscillations. So, basically, 18 seconds.
@JohnRennie But still, I would like to understand: why did my professor mention partial derivatives for the evaluation of error?
We discussed using derivatives to calculate errors in complicated equations didn't we?
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie Yes, but what does that have to do with the error in the mean?
It has nothing to do with the error in the mean.
It's only used when you are combining different properties.
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie In that case, when could it be used?
Furthermore, he referred to a more complicated error propagation expression in which it would not be very easy to enter 0.1 as error to calculate the error in the mean.
If you have an equation like z = xy
Then you can use partial differentiation to find the error in z if you know the errors in x and y.
Yes?
Bml
Bml
11:13
@JohnRennie Yes
So that's what you do.
But it does not apply to taking the mean of some set of measurements.
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie OK...In this experiment, the partial derivative cannot be used in any way, right?
@JohnRennie Why?
This is going to take too long to explain. You'll need to find some book on error analysis if you wan to go into detail.
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie Perhaps this is because 0.1 is the same for every measure we are averaging?
Bml
Bml
11:30
@JohnRennie One question: do you know how to insert error bars into a LaTeX chart?
No, I don't. Sorry.
Bml
Bml
I have this graph... What does it look like? What should be the role of error bars?
Typically error bars would be drawn like this.
The length of the bar either side of the point is equal to the error.
Bml
Bml
Do I have to do two graphs for weighted and unweighted linear regression?
I don't know what weighted and unweighted linear regression are ...
I guess unweighted linear regression is what I've always just called linear regression
Bml
Bml
11:44
That said, don't we have to calculate both the standard deviation and the variance of each point on the graph?
@Bml I can't comment as I've never use Tex to analyse data.
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie No, I mean even without the use of Tex...
Each point on the graph is a mean of five values. Yes?
Bml
Bml
Yes
So you can calculate the standard deviation of the five values and use that as an estimate of the error.
Or you can estimate the error from how accurately you think you can do the measurement.
Bml
Bml
11:50
OK
You can use whichever of the two error estimates you want.
I don't know which your prof expects you to use.
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie Is it \sqrt{(x-x_{mean})^2/n}?
I can't remember the definition of the standard deviation.
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie Sorry, I am very confused... You said earlier that the error in the mean was calculated with that equation you presented earlier, right? Now, why the standard deviation?
I said there are two ways of calculating the error in the mean:
> So you can calculate the standard deviation of the five values and use that as an estimate of the error.
Or you can estimate the error from how accurately you think you can do the measurement.
The first method does not use your estimate of what you think the error is. It just assumes that the error can be estimated from the scatter in the points.
That's what calculating the standard deviation does. It is derived from how different all the values are from each other.
OK so far?
Bml
Bml
11:59
OK
The other method is to estimate the error you think exists e.g. you might think you can measure accurate to ± 1mm so the error would be 1mm.
In that case the error in the mean is your estimate divided by √N.
Bml
Bml
So we used the second method, right?
So we have two different ways of estimating errors.
We haven't used any method yet. You need to choose what method you want to use.
I would suggest you use the second method as I'd guess that's what your teacher expects.
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie If I wanted to use the second method, how should I do it? ((T_1 + T_2 + T_3 + T_4 + T_5) \pm 0.1) / \sqrt{5}, right?
Yes
No, wait.
I misread your post
The mean is (T₁ + T₂ + T₃ + T₄ + T₅)/5
Yes?
Bml
Bml
12:05
Yes
And the error in the mean is ± 0.1/√5
So the mean is:
Tav = (T₁ + T₂ + T₃ + T₄ + T₅)/5 ± 0.1/√5
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie Yes, it is what I mean...
It isn't what you wrote!
Bml
Bml
@JohnRennie And to get the error in T^2? I calculate the percentage error and multiply it by 2, and from that calculate the absolute error in T^2?
@JohnRennie Why not?
@Bml Yes
3 mins ago, by Bml
@JohnRennie If I wanted to use the second method, how should I do it? ((T_1 + T_2 + T_3 + T_4 + T_5) \pm 0.1) / \sqrt{5}, right?
You wrote:
((T₁ + T₂ + T₃ + T₄ + T₅) ± 0.1)/√5
which is completely different.
Bml
Bml
12:14
The standard deviation in [T₁, T₂, T₃, T₄, T₅] is 0.03429285639896452. So?
Bml
Bml
12:30
@JohnRennie With this method we have 0.0447214...
How do you judge this difference?
 
4 hours later…
Bml
Bml
16:45
@JohnRennie Hi :-)

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