The DMZ

12:00 AM

That it's public domain and the org you're supporting is what it is...?

I mean, I kinda assumed y'all did your homework, not take the word of someone who literally only turned up here to talk about that at face value, cause I literally don't ever remember seeing Evan here before this.

I'm familiar with him - but... I kinda expected better than to see y'all potentially socially engineered

forest

@JourneymanGeek I know what BDS is.

As for whether or not it's public domain, I don't actually care about that.

Journeyman Geek

So I'm not saying no 'yet'

But I do encourage folks to do their own homework

forest

Like I said, I know what BDS is. I wouldn't support a movement if I only learned about it from him first. He just gave me a good avatar.

@JourneymanGeek Anyway if it's not public domain, I don't care. There are lots of people with avatars that are not public domain. And it's temporary anyway.

ThoriumBR

12:27 AM

told you guys I am terrible at chess... I taught my 8 yo today how to play, and she defeated me on her first match...

forest

Heh nice.

ThoriumBR

gonna teach my 4 yo now, but I hope to defeat the 2 yo...

forest

:D

Journeyman Geek

Narrator: And he faced crushing defeat, as he was completely outclassed by a toddler

forest

Have your ELO as an unsigned int. Then if you're really bad, you'll be grandmaster.

ThoriumBR

12:41 AM

@forest I haven't thought of that...

I can be a grandmaster, challenge all other grandmasters for matches, and bet against me...

forest

"Hey guys I have an ELO of 4294967295! You can't beat me!"

ThoriumBR

"I challenge you all for a duel!"
and Vegas houses are rating me 1.0001:1 and the challenger 10000:1. I bet all my savings on the other guy, and make a fortune!

I can even get some money from every loan shark on the area... I can be a billionaire!

forest

Even if you somehow win, your ELO will wrap back to 0 and since your ELO went down, does that mean you lost despite having won? And thus win your bet!

ThoriumBR

12:59 AM

win win...

the second match was abandoned because we had to get back home, but I had an advantage... she was without her 2 knights and 2 bishops, and I lost 2 small pieces, so I could have won

but she went to bed happy to have beaten her dad at chess

forest

haha

Evan Carroll

Re: people talking about deleted messages. I give permission for all of those messages that I sent to be used against me. Rather than vague jacketing me and claiming a Jew is antisemitic for posting in support of BDS. In fact, please tell me what was said that was wrong because I still have no idea.

Sorry, I was banned.

forest

@EvanCarroll I figured. I take it you have some history with SE that causes them to dislike you?

Anyway I didn't see anything you said that was antisemitic, and no calls to genocide.

Evan Carroll

No, specifically one of those mods involved. But I've respectfully requested he simply avoid me, because I've filed a case with StackExchange too on him, and prevailed. That's why I am back. I had requested him not use my name, or interact with me on multiple occasions but you can see that request isn't respected.

forest

AviD?

Evan Carroll

1:12 AM

No, I don't know avid at all, or anything of avid.

forest

oh

Evan Carroll

I've never even heard nor seen his name.

forest

He seemed to be the one who thought that Zionism means "the right of Jews to exist", so he took your anti-Zionist stance to be an attack against Jewish people.

Evan Carroll

That's fine. That should be a discussion we can have as adults, and moreover as Jews if he is of that mindset. Because I'd like someone to explain to me how I am attacking myself by taking a stance against a dominant group participating in apartheid in a far away land, that claims me as a member. And seeks to speak for me.

forest

Given that we couldn't see the comments you made which they claim were calls for genocide, we have no way of knowing what you said. From what I've observed, it seems like you are being misunderstood.

FWIW, I tend to get on the nerves of some CMs and some mods from time to time myself, so they often assume I mean something that I don't actually mean, so I totally understand the situation you're in.

Journeyman Geek

1:16 AM

@EvanCarroll Yeah, so... I think I'm invoking Avid's no politics request.

forest

@JourneymanGeek Read the scroll log. @RoryAlsop gave us permission to discuss politics as long as it took a backstage to information security. We had a long discussion about that and it was pretty clear-cut that the level of politics that we have right now is permitted.

Evan Carroll

They could ask right, this is also not a symmetric relationship. I've never banned a moderator here for delivering a message I didn't like. I've only questioned them publicly. But an important note is they can't even provide an assurance like "I wish to have this conversation with you, and I will forgo the power of banning you for the duration and content of this conversation." Why would I talk to anyone that can engage me as an equal.

And so, if I don't respond it's for precisely the reason above, without naming names. ;)

Journeyman Geek

@forest I'll deal with Rory if he's unhappy over it

forest

@JourneymanGeek He said very explicitly that it's up to us and laid out the limitations. I'll be deferring to him as he is the moderator of this room. I will continue to discuss politics with J etc with the caveat that it be secondary, with infosec being primary.

Evan Carroll

This network would be a lot better though if moderators could engage the community rather than banning them, and scrubbing messages. And if I get banned again I support anyone communicating to me through LinkedIn, FB, Twitter, or email about it. All of that is public. Or they can SMS me, 281.901.0011. I don't need walls to keep my dissidents out.

forest

1:19 AM

I don't reveal my own phone number so I don't SMS. :P

Also SMS is horrendously insecure.

Journeyman Geek

Right! Y'all can linkedin, FB, Twitter or email Evan. Or SMS him

forest

@JourneymanGeek Is he not permitted in this channel?

Journeyman Geek

@EvanCarroll I'm not really convinced you're here to talk about infosec at all.

forest

@JourneymanGeek It doesn't matter if he's here for that purpose as long as, again, infosec is the primary discussion.

Journeyman Geek

@forest There's a long history of stuff. This is about the worst place to ask people to trust me but... trust me.

forest

1:21 AM

When I have someone saying "I don't like authority" and someone saying "this guy is bad. I'm authority; trust me", you know who I tend to believe, for better or worse. :P

And as it is, I don't think he's broken any rules since coming back here. If he did or started spouting racism, I would report him (as I would with anyone).

Journeyman Geek

\o/

Deal with it.

forest

Well fundamentally it's between you and him. Just be aware of how it comes across if you ban someone who is clearly not breaking any rules and is merely... existing.

@EvanCarroll Bruh your website isn't loading for me.

So wait, @JourneymanGeek do you consider him more of a troll than me? :o

Journeyman Geek

@forest ooh, loaded question

forest

Well you seem to think he has a real history with the site. I thought I was your favorite problem user! :(

Journeyman Geek

@forest I don't have favourites!

forest

1:25 AM

haha

Journeyman Geek

But yeah, there's a bit of history with the network - on the bright side, most of our CMs are newer so he'll probably get someone who can look at things with a fresh perspective

forest

I imagine he's just very vocal in disagreeing with people.

Well, @EvanCarroll my email is in my profile description if you want. I don't know yours.

Since I hate it when only one is allowed to tell their side.

daya

3:23 AM

Was the reason to move those messages that I took it off from Israel-Palestine in my last few messages? Or was that conversation being just being one sided?

Because forest and Evan was supporting Palestine and I was just mostly questioning them as I don't have much knowledge about that conflict

Journeyman Geek

3:40 AM

@daya there was a bunch of stuff that was problematic. Part of the reason we moved the whole conversation is so that they can be looked at in context. I wouldn't worry too much about 'whether its my fault' unless someone specifically reaches out to you.

daya

4:35 AM

@JourneymanGeek I am not worrying either, So I just assume that was being one sided and when AviD came in I got to know the other side of the story

Journeyman Geek

5:14 AM

@daya Well that too but ugh. politics.

daya

5:32 AM

@JourneymanGeek Yeah, but see I am really not interested in foreign politics and but this issue was in news and I had heard the word "Palestinians are being oppressed" several times before this conflict. So out of curiosity I just decided to discuss what it is actually

And then these type of discussions automatically becomes political so..

Journeyman Geek

@daya politics in itself isn't problematic

daya

@JourneymanGeek right, but it becomes problematic when people start putting religion in poltiics

Journeyman Geek

5:58 AM

... actually...

Rory Alsop

9:20 AM

@forest he has posted stuff just to cause dissent and to present a false status.

@JourneymanGeek - no I'm not upset about that. Moving further away from the danger zone is safer. Without Evan, the conversation the others were having was less contentious.

@EvanCarroll You can have that discussion. SOMEWHERE ELSE.

You only came in here to use this chat as your soap box on that topic

@forest - no, Evan gets no benefit of the doubt any more. Too many years of his actions (nothing to do with BDS) where we tried to be patient and understanding.

reed

9:51 AM

Please guys, behave. If you do, I will give you a voucher so you can buy french fries

that mayor eating fries is the most stupid, worrying, and CRINGE thing I've seen in a while

Anonymous

10:16 AM

5

Q: How effective is Windows KDP for exploit mitigation in practice?

Windows Kernel Data Protection is a kernel security feature which appears to use Extended Page Tables (EPT, a hardware virtualization feature) to enforce read-only pages. How effective is this at protecting from kernel exploits in the real world? Is this an effective mitigation, or security theat...

Anonymous

Damn. No answer yet!

Anonymous

I was hoping and praying someone would confirm our theory.

Journeyman Geek

10:29 AM

Ok, that's slightly confusing ._.

@Jis12yearsold. That's why questions like that are fun ....

Anonymous

It's a great question!

Journeyman Geek

Sometimes great questions are hard to find an answer to

( I got you and forest confused .-.)

Anonymous

Yeah, I am not that hopeful someone will answer it or will be able to answer it.

Anonymous

HAH.

Anonymous

That's an insult to forest...

Journeyman Geek

10:32 AM

@Jis12yearsold. But if someone does, it will be glorious

Anonymous

Yeah, indeed.

Anonymous

We did ourselves come to a pretty good answer yesterday.

Anonymous

But it would be nice for someone else to confirm that.

Rory Alsop

@reed link please? I haven't heard of this - which mayor?

is it someone doing the whole "I'm one of the proletariat - just like you" things?

Journeyman Geek

10:59 AM

@Jis12yearsold. Same Ava ._.

reed

New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio promotes a new incentive to get vaccinated: Shake Shack

►

@RoryAlsop, that mayor (of New York City)

Rory Alsop

@reed oh jeez. To be fair it could have just as easily been the Mayor of London :-)

that said, is it working? If so, I guess I don't mind that it is cringe-worthy :-)

reed

@RoryAlsop, at 2:30 he starts eating fries and act insane

Anonymous

@JourneymanGeek Heh :p

Rory Alsop

@reed wow - yup, just watched that bit

Are they...treating their audience like toddlers?

nobody

12:39 PM

@forest Sadly, questions with no answers don't go to the HNQs

Of the 35 questions forest has asked on-site, 8 received no answer, and 9 more do not have an accepted answer (which I take to mean no satisfactory answer). So forest only has a 50% success rate at getting answers...

Well it seems like The DMZ's drama is getting a lot of publicity

Anonymous

1:00 PM

That doesn't surprise me at all.

Anonymous

1:15 PM

@nobody Wait, is it? Link?

Anonymous

I was referring to forests questions not getting answered :D

nobody

@Jis12yearsold. No it was another mod dropping by

Anonymous

Uhm, who?

nobody

Forgot the name, something with X

Anonymous

Hm...

Anonymous

1:16 PM

That might be staff...

nobody

We've had more mods here in two days than the last full year

Yeah, possibly

Anonymous

lol.

Anonymous

True...

Anonymous

But hey, at least we cleared up the whole topic debacle!

nobody

right. Unless staff comes in and overturns everything

Anonymous

1:18 PM

That was nice of Rory, I appreciate it a lot that he took the time to go over this as much as he could. Even if we are not entirely satisfied with the lack of transparency.

Anonymous

@nobody Well, if that happens I am off :D

Anonymous

Or I would suggest we host an irc server, or something.

nobody

Yeah appreciate it a lot. And sorry @RoryAlsop for comparing you to the feds :)

Anonymous

Heh, it was quite fed behavior :D

Anonymous

Damn. No answer on the KDP question yet.

nobody

1:19 PM

@Jis12yearsold. Right, so that's the DMZ's lifecycle. People come here, build a community, get hit by the mods, and leave to slack or irc

Anonymous

That's frustrating. I really want to know if we're right.

Anonymous

@nobody Hah, based on the logs - it seems that way.

Journeyman Geek

@Jis12yearsold. Oh, Its more - well Evan has a bit of a long history, and frankly between being pretty much sure everyone's going to jump down by throat for moderating, and knowing exactly where it was going... I kinda wanted to be sure I had it right.

nobody

@Jis12yearsold. You know, just write a partial answer to it, then we upvote that answer as well, and maybe it gets to the HNQ

Journeyman Geek

@Jis12yearsold. Or someone goes SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET and answers it.

Anonymous

1:21 PM

@JourneymanGeek Oh, I am not talking about the incident specifically. I could care less about Evan. My only concern was the future moderation of the room :)

Anonymous

If someone breaks COC, I'm happy for you to use your duty. My issue comes when we're impacted.

Journeyman Geek

@Jis12yearsold. I'll ask nicely. And hope people listen, unless, yanno, lines are crossed. :D

Anonymous

But we already went over it, and it seems that is not the case :D

Anonymous

@nobody Hmm. You think that would work?

Anonymous

Problem is, I am not sure I could write a "partial" answer.

Anonymous

1:22 PM

There's quite a lot to it...

Journeyman Geek

Yeah, but hearing stuff like "lack of transparency" is very much a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

nobody

@Jis12yearsold. For getting to the HNQ? It would, if the answer is written and voted on quickly. As a question ages, its HNQ score drops so its harder to get it into the list

Anonymous

@JourneymanGeek Well, maybe. But given everyone's background in this room I think it isn't wrong to assume or presume we'll always have issues with transparency or lack of it, no?

Anonymous

@nobody Hmm...

Journeyman Geek

@Jis12yearsold. And sometimes our hands are tied, or we need to figure out what to do, or what to say after dealing with the immediate issue

Anonymous

1:23 PM

@JourneymanGeek I know.

Anonymous

I don't blame you for that. I am merely saying we will be dissatisfied with that as people. It's who we are.

Anonymous

It doesn't mean it's a reflection on you.

Anonymous

If anything its an attack on SE...

Anonymous

Ooh, this Signal drama is interesting, hey.

reed

I'm wondering if it would be a good question, if I ask about physical anti-tampering techniques

nobody

1:34 PM

@Jis12yearsold. Link?

Anonymous

It's a bit more to explain than a link.

Anonymous

Give me a few moments, I'll explain and provide some links :)

nobody

Ok thanks!

Anonymous

So, here goes...

nobody

@reed If it hasn't been answered before, I believe it would. But then its slightly unpredictable how schroeder reacts (although he usually doesn't bother high rep users)

Anonymous

1:36 PM

Signal has introduced a feature called "MobileCoin". It lets users of Signal send cryptocurrency between each other. Their own cryptocurrency, MobileCoin.

Anonymous

MobileCoin is based on XMR. In-fact, most of the source code and design comes from XMR but with a few changes. XMR blocks take around 15-20 minutes for transactions to pass. Signal doesn't like that. They want the transactions to be instant so they've changed the way the blockchain works.

Journeyman Geek

@Jis12yearsold. Signal has all the fun drama...

Anonymous

With XMR, the blockchain isn't public. You can only see a transaction if you have the private key for the transaction. For Signal's case, they made it such that they themselves and people running coin nodes can see the transactions (which is horrible for privacy) but they are claiming that they cannot see all the transactions (sounds false).

Anonymous

The key issue here is that, if you use this feature, because the transactions can be viewed by Signal and people running nodes, that means LE can simply submit a warrant and Signal cannot say "we don't have it!" (like they can with messages) because they do have the transactions as per the design.

Anonymous

Additionally, Signal actually began all of this work in 2017. And sometime around there, they sold $30,000,000 worth of their coins to private investors. If that wasn't shady enough, they didn't update the server source code for an entire year... An open source project not publishing their source code...

Anonymous

1:42 PM

youtube.com/watch?v=tJoO2uWrX1M <- good video. links all of his sources in the description. Worth reading every link.

Anonymous

stockstelegraph.com/2021/04/09/… <- details some of Moxie's arrogance.

nobody

Signal getting into cryptocurrencies is stupid.

Anonymous

wired.com/story/… <- msm style article on the incident.

nobody

They specialize in secure messaging, just do that

Anonymous

Don't get me wrong, Moxie is a very, very smart guy.

Anonymous

1:44 PM

But I find that I disagree with him a lot. He seems incredibly arrogant.

Anonymous

I believe he is also pro centralization...

Anonymous

Well, I don't believe that. He is you can find him talking about it quite a lot.

Journeyman Geek

@Jis12yearsold. That's kinda the problem with being the smartest person in the room ._.

Anonymous

@JourneymanGeek Hm, quite :D

reed

the lizard people might have corrupted him and convinced him to put backdoors in his software

nobody

1:45 PM

Yeah, I have a major problem with a person that prioritized a cryptocurrency over adding email support to signal

Anonymous

A key quote from Mr Scheiner...

Anonymous

> It’s that adding a cryptocurrency to an end-to-end encrypted app muddies the morality of the product, and invites all sorts of government investigative and regulatory meddling: by the IRS, the SEC, FinCEN, and probably the FBI.

Anonymous

Time to move to Matrix based apps? Yay, nay?

Anonymous

Also, where the fuck is @MechMK1

reed

to be honest I am actually against cryptocurrencies

Anonymous

1:46 PM

Are you okay? @MechMK1

nobody

He was on site earlier today

Anonymous

Oh okay, good :)

nobody

But he didn't appear in chat

Anonymous

@reed I am not against cryptocurrency, not one bit.

Anonymous

Being against cryptocurrency means you're pro banks.

Rory Alsop

1:47 PM

@nobody that's okay. I know a couple of nice feds :-)

nobody

Which is worrying, its usually the other way around

Anonymous

If you're pro bank then you're probably pro government.

Anonymous

And if you're pro government then you're pro mafia...

reed

@Jis12yearsold, I once read a very interesting article that basically described any attempt at moving away from "state money" to going back to the middle ages or the wild west.

Anonymous

I once read a very interesting article which said bankers play truth or dare with your money on a daily basis and caused one of the worst economic crashes in history (2008).

Anonymous

1:48 PM

OH, and 2011. Correct me if I am wrong...

reed

So I'm curious, I'd like to understand what problem cryptocurrencies are actually suppose to solve

Anonymous

Centralization.

Anonymous

And privacy...

Journeyman Geek

@reed the idea of "decentralised" digital money with the same anonymity and privacy is good

reed

privacy is an interesting argument. Because if you want privacy about money, then how are you supposed to make people pay taxes?

Journeyman Geek

1:49 PM

How its implimented, with massive amounts of computational power used to do proof of work... is terribad.

Anonymous

@reed I don't believe in personal income tax in the first place...

Journeyman Geek

@reed Does the government need to know I bought a bottle of coke?

Anonymous

I believe corporations should cover almost all of the taxes in the world.

Anonymous

@JourneymanGeek +1

Journeyman Geek

So I like the idea of cryptocurrency

and think every single implimentation sucks

as well as the idea of 'mining'

Which is literally 'just' a lottery

reed

1:53 PM

But right now, if somebody scams you, there is the police that can investigate, the banks that can refund you, etc. With cryptocurrencies, what guarantees would you have? None? Like gold in the wild west? If I steal all your crypto from you, you will be poor and I'll be rich, thanks to anonymity and privacy and decentralization? How does that work?

Journeyman Geek

@reed If someone scams me with cash...

Anonymous

I'd never go to the police anyways.

Journeyman Geek

Cryptocurrency is literally a replacement for fiat currency.

Only its "Government backs it" vs "People think its got value"

Anonymous

Off-topic real quick... Does anyone know why Orbot is no-longer on F-Droid?

Rory Alsop

@Jis12yearsold. some of these statements may not be true, thankfully

Anonymous

1:56 PM

Maybe not..

Rory Alsop

@JourneymanGeek I like some uses of blockchain. Cryptocurrencies, and especially Bitcoin are currently only good for gambling, ransomware and money laundering.

A. Hersean

Cryptocurrency is like virtual gold: it can hard to trace (depending on the currency), it can be mined (again YMMV), stolen and lost. It has the same problem as gold coins as a currency (central banks cannot print it).

Anonymous

BTC is terrible for money laundering but sure...

Journeyman Geek

@RoryAlsop Our government's using an etherium based blockchain thinggie for signing documents

Anonymous

If you launder via BTC you're almost 90% likely to get caught.

Journeyman Geek

1:57 PM

@A.Hersean though, you can eventually find lost gold

lost crypto is lost

A. Hersean

yeah