The DMZ

forest

10:00 AM

I mean cults are pretty much always fucked up.

Tom K.

isn't a cult "f*cked up" by definition?

what the hell are you even talking about @J.J?

forest

Unless you mean like, the cult of emacs.

Anonymous

I have no idea.

forest

Which is the worst cult, because we all know vim > emacs.

Anonymous

All I mean is, not all cults do those kind of things.

Anonymous

10:00 AM

Some of them are just weird not monsters.

forest

Yeah but they all brainwash their members.

Tom K.

dude

what - the - fuck

Anonymous

Well that's true.

Tom K.

what cult?

who?

forest

Cults in general.

Anonymous

10:01 AM

Well, I don't know lmao - there are probably thousands & thousands of cults we don't know about.

forest

The problem I have with them is that they're no different from religion, they're just smaller and less organized.

Tom K.

what are you talking about? give a source. don't just blurb stuff out

Anonymous

Don't assume they're all doing really f*cked up stuff.

Tom K.

you two are just venting at each other for an hour and saying nothing

Anonymous

Nobody is venting...?

forest

10:01 AM

We're not venting at each other. We're ranting, together.

Tom K.

"Muslims are wrong and Jews are wrong and mutilating children blabla"

Anonymous

I mean, I never said that.

Tom K.

yeah, that's not venting, right

Anonymous

It's a discussion :p

forest

@TomK. That was me, not him. And that's a rant because circumcision is wrong.

Regardless of gender.

Anonymous

10:02 AM

On any topic that comes up lmao.

Anonymous

I mean really the only thing here is we're off-topic but that happens so much anyways.

Tom K.

no it's not a discussion, you are not exchanging arguments

Anonymous

Oaky we're talking then.

Anonymous

Better?

forest

@TomK. Dude I've been in pointless arguments for hours before. Longest I ever had was on IRC with this really weird stoner guy. For 8 hours. Straight.

Tom K.

10:03 AM

everyone just says what he wants

Anonymous

Just talking.

forest

@TomK. That's why I said it's a rant, not a discussion. People don't have to disagree in order to talk. :P

Tom K.

yeah, whatever, I don't care

but you guys do not make any sense

forest

Ah and I thought I was so close to passing the turing test. :(

Tom K.

"yeah, cults suck" - "well, some don't" "yeah, well, some do" - "yeah"

forest

10:04 AM

lmao

Anonymous

All I'm saying Tom, I think it's a pretty hollywood thing to believe all cults are doing some really evil & twisted stuff.

Tom K.

"religion sucks" - "yeah, especially this one" - "yeah, and this one" - "also this one"

forest

I know someone in a sex cult who's a batshit insane child abuser.

But everyone in that cult is ugly anyway.

Anonymous

It's more than likely that some are just people that have some really strange beliefs but other than that are just pretty normal people that don't do anything completely illegal.

Tom K.

these are just statements you are throwing out there for whatever reason

Anonymous

10:05 AM

Yes because we're talking lmao.

forest

@TomK. So? That's called talking.

ehehe

Tom K.

god f*cking damn

you are like 14 year olds talking about sex

I know someone who does sex!

yeah, me too!

I did sex once as well!

forest

I know very little about cults, yes. The only one I actually know about is one a friend is in, and even then I barely know much about it. I mostly think of cults like Scientology and shit.

Tom K.

man, am I mad about you

forest

lmao why

Anonymous

10:06 AM

I honestly don't know what you're so enraged by Tom.

forest

How is this anything like that lol

Anonymous

We're just having a random conversation on random points whatever comes to our heads.

Anonymous

shrugs

Tom K.

because you make just these random general statements with no basis

it's like this

forest

That's why it's called an opinion.

Anonymous

10:08 AM

So every single time you talk with someone it has to have basis?

Tom K.

"snails are awesome" - "yeah.. snails dude" - "but some snails.. gross" - "yeah.. ikr"

HamZa

@HamZa and this is why i sometimes hesitate to even use the word "religion" on the interwebz

Anonymous

Evidence?

forest

@TomK. And what's wrong with that?

Snails can be pretty neat.

Anonymous

"What do you want for dinner?" - "Well, we had this last night, this the night before and I don't want this because we have that 80% of the time" - "No we have that 20% of the time get it right!"

forest

10:08 AM

lol

Tom K.

it's meaningless BS? you two are smart young guys and you talk about stuff you have no idea about

and in between there's a sprinkle of racism

forest

@TomK. I am familiar with how religion works.

I was religious myself and read the Bible frequently.

Anonymous

I've not been racist at any point but I agree, I have no idea about cults.

Anonymous

But I'm just talking, I don't see the problem.

forest

As for cults, that was a mostly passing remark about how I think of them like less organized religions. You're right, I don't know much about cults. So what?

Tom K.

10:09 AM

cool, were you also Muslim and a Jew?

forest

No, only a Roman Catholic.

Tom K.

I don't know how many times you were in this very chat ranting about people who made statements on this site or on crypto.se or somewhere else on the internet about topics they had no idea about

forest

Again, the cults thing was a passing remark.

Religion is something I actually am familiar with.

Anonymous

Well Tom, I think in that case he refers to people that post answers.

Anonymous

We're not posting answers, we're in a chat room, chatting...

Tom K.

10:11 AM

you are not familiar with Judaism because you grew up roman catholic?

forest

I'm familiar with Judaism because I find theology interesting.

Tom K.

I grew up a mammal, so I'm familiar with animals!

forest

I don't have to be a Jew to know about Judaism.

Nor do I have to be Aztec to find Aztec mythology fascinating.

Tom K.

but that's what you are stating above. that you are familiar with religion in general because you were religiously raised

Anonymous

Question, do you ever listen to podcasts Tom? If so, do you ever to listen to ones where they just talk about whatever the hell comes to their mind whether they understand it or not? I guess the answer is no.

forest

10:12 AM

@TomK. No, that's what gave me strong opinions on religion.

Tom K.

I listen to podcasts yes. But I do not listen to audio recordings of stoners, no.

forest

The facts I know about religion have nothing to do with that.

Anonymous

HAHAHAH

Anonymous

lol.

forest

Hey sometimes stoners have very interesting things to say.

If you're stoned as well at least.

Anonymous

10:13 AM

I mean... Sometimes pointless chat about things you may or may not understand is kinda' relaxing.

forest

^

At least we aren't talking about Hillary Clinton being a satanist.

Or pizzagate.

Tom K.

cool, you are not talking about other baseless conspiracy theories?

Anonymous

Whether you understand it or not doesn't matter, you don't have to understand something to talk about it randomly. You have to understand something to provide a legitimate argument in a discussion or to post an answer on here for example.

forest

What conspiracy theories am I talking about, @TomK.?

Anonymous

But if you're just having a pointless chat about random stuff, why does evidence matter?

forest

10:14 AM

Is circumcision a conspiracy?

Tom K.

No

forest

What about Jonestown. Was that a conspiracy?

Anonymous

^ taht's an interesting one.

Anonymous

I was reading something about uh...

forest

(rhetorical. I don't believe it was a conspiracy)

Anonymous

10:15 AM

I think....

forest

Though technically, I suppose it is, in that it was a cult that conspired to kill people. But not a conspiracy in the sense that it never happened.

Anonymous

No nevermind.

Anonymous

I cannot remember his name, I was reading something related to Jonestown the other day but I cannot remember the guys name.

Tom K.

"I dunno, Muslims are so sexist and so oppressive of women that you don't have to worry about a female Muslim. She won't preach if you tell her not to, probably because she's too used to being beat up by her father for talking out of line"

forest

@TomK. That's not a conspiracy, that's hyperbole.

Tom K.

10:17 AM

it's racist bullshit

nothing more, nothing less

forest

I have a problem with the religion and how it teaches people to treat others. I have nothing against Arabs as a race. Why would I?

Anonymous

And neither do I.

Tom K.

that's very convenient. it doesn't change that the statement above is inherently racist

forest

It's anti-religious, not racist.

Islam is not a race. It is a religion.

I hate Islam. I hate Christianity. I hate Judaism.

I don't hate any of the constituent races, nor do I think any race is superior.

Anonymous

Ah so the guy I was reading about @forest was Huey P. Newton the co-founder of the Black Panther Party.

Anonymous

10:19 AM

Apparently he endorsed what happened with Jonestown on multiple occasions.

forest

The original Black Panthers or the new ones?

Anonymous

The original.

Tom K.

then you should say that because your statement is a statement about people

and not about religion

forest

@TomK. It's a statement about people who are abusive in the name of religion.

Anonymous

I retract my comment following Forests, Tom - but I don't think it was racist.

forest

10:20 AM

I can hate someone for their abuse of basic human rights. I don't hate anyone because of the color of their skin or the language they speak.

Anonymous

Arabic actually sounds kinda' beautiful I think @forest hah

Tom K.

no, it boils down to: "all Muslims are sexist"

forest

@J.J I agree. I have a big collection of Nasheeds which I listen to.

They're pretty neat, even if they are glorifying murder.

@TomK. The Islamic religion is sexist. Muslims in general are often sexist, but I don't think they all are. There are plenty of people who are not fundamentalist.

Anonymous

When they speak fast it's intimidating but I found the same thing with Spanish actually (and probably most foreign languages), but I do like how Arabic sounds.

forest

@J.J You should listen to some Nasheeds some time (over Tor, because the UK govt doesn't like people listening to extremist propaganda, even if it's just because it sounds nice). The thing with Nasheeds is they believe they will be tortured for eternity if they use any musical instruments, so they have to get creative with their voice.

Anonymous

10:23 AM

@forest Eh, no need.

forest

@TomK. I think the idea that women should be subservient to men and must always cover themselves is a little bit sexist, yes.

I mean I hate radical feminists (3rd wave feminists in general) as much as anyone, but that doesn't mean I think that actual oppression based on gender is acceptable.

Tom K.

there are a lot of women who see it as their choice to wear a Hijab or Niqab

forest

Yep, that's what happens when you believe you'll be tortured for eternity if you don't listen. It's brainwashing, plain and simple. It's abusive.

Anonymous

There was a thing on Good Morning Britain or some other show like that and they had some feminists on there with some boxing ring girls IIRC.

Anonymous

And these feminists were acting like the ring girls didn't want to do it.

Anonymous

10:25 AM

And they were being forced to use their body lmao.

forest

@J.J Well that's just silly.

Anonymous

And even afte being told multiple times by these women they actually like flaunting their body they wouldn't listen.

Anonymous

Made me laugh...

forest

lmao

Tom K.

yeah.. right..

thanks for your time..

I'm going back to work

forest

10:26 AM

@TomK. The Aztecs would kill children by tying them to a post and shooting them full of arrows. The children were often happy to die for that, because they believed being sacrificed is a positive thing. Do you consider that not abusive?

Tom K.

you can now go back to being self-righteous

forest

Well, happy until they start getting shot full of arrows, that is...

Anonymous

Ah, it wasn't ring girls. It was F1 girls.

forest

@TomK. You're just displaying a problem society has in general. When abuse is religious, it somehow stops being abuse. Religion becomes an excuse.

Tom K.

yeah, "The children were often happy" <- and you know that.. how? because all the other aztecs told you?

forest

10:28 AM

@TomK. Because they were raised for that.

Tom K.

ah yes, a great proof!

forest

You know there isn't a lack of Aztec writing out there...

Tom K.

@forest and that is not true. abuse is horrible, abuse in the name of religion is as well. but saying all religion is horrible because abuse happens in the name of religion is a false argument.

@forest yeah, and I'm sure that was written by the guys with the arrows and not by the children..

forest

@TomK. It was written by the people who killed the Aztecs.

You know, the Spanish? The ones who invaded them?

It was only a few hundred years ago.

Tom K.

yeah, the biggest racists of their time who wanted to depict the Aztecs as wildlings with weird customs. what a great source

you - the biggest skeptic of all times - believe this BS?

forest

10:30 AM

Well considering it's generally accepted as historical, yes.

Tom K.

yeah, if it's general accepted that the children who were going to get killed were happy about it, can you cite a source within 5 minutes?

forest

Or is that a conspiracy now too? Historians and their silly conspiracies~

@TomK. Well I can look at the Wikipedia page and link to the reference.

Tom K.

alright, I'll wait

forest

Can't find it right now, sorry. Just stuff about the children being pampered and treated like gods.

However if you don't want the Aztec example, there are plenty of others.

More modern ones, at that, if all you want is an example of a person being brainwashed into thinking something that is bad for them is actually good.

Tom K.

No, I want this one. Because it is this type of BS. Just claim after claim with nothing in the backpocket

forest

10:35 AM

Yeah I'm still looking. Right now reading about how they were treated well.

Anonymous

Tom, I understand you want references for things in this case, etc that makes perfect sense to me - but what I still don't get is why you require evidence for two people having a pointless chat?

Anonymous

It's meaningless, it's just talking... I'm still utterly confused on that.

Tom K.

and after a while it's "all Muslims are sexist" and "Jews are all brainwashed" and I don't know what kind of crazy bs

forest

Reading right now that the children considered it a great honor.

Tom K.

it is not pointless

forest

10:36 AM

When did I say "Jews are all brainwashed"?

Or "all Muslims are sexist"?

Tom K.

20 seconds ago and 10 minutes ago

Anonymous

I mean, I regard most of the conversations I have with Forest as pointless.

forest

Link it. I said that Muslim women who think they need to cover themselves to avoid eternal damnation are brainwashed, not "All Jews are brainwashed".

Anonymous

We literally just talk about random stuff until one of us decides we've got work to do.

Tom K.

public discussion forms public discourse, public discourse forms public opinion, public opinion forms our society

Anonymous

10:38 AM

So you're saying whatever me & Forest say somehow falls on the site?

forest

I'd love to live in a society that rejects religious sexism and racism.

Anonymous

How so...? We're individuals.

Anonymous

By saying that, you're taking away our individuality.

Anonymous

At least, that's how I interpret what you're saying.

Tom K.

@forest don't you basically say, that everyone who is religious is also brainwashed?

then read again. you are in a public chatroom.

forest

10:39 AM

No, I did not say that.

Anonymous

Well, to me it sounds like you're trying to say whatever me & Forest say somehow puts something on the site.

Anonymous

But, I could be wrong, I'm not saying I'm right.

forest

I was referring to your claim that it's just a choice for women to cover themselves. Yes, it's a choice where they believe the alternative is getting skinned in a boiling pit of fire for eternity over and over.

Tom K.

"Muslims are so sexist and so oppressive of women that you don't have to worry about a female Muslim." <- this refers to all Muslims

forest

Didn't I mention that was hyperbole earlier?

It was intentionally meant to be at least a little inflammatory.

Tom K.

10:41 AM

@forest there are definitely parts of the world where people still believe in an Islam like that, but definitely not everywhere.

if you use inflammatory rhetoric, you have to live with the consequences

you can't use inflammatory(!) rhetoric without being able to live with the fire

forest

theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/…

hm...

> Nearly a quarter (23%) supported the introduction of sharia law in some areas of Britain, and 39% agreed that “wives should always obey their husbands”, compared with 5% of the country as a whole.

And that's Britain, not Saudi Arabia.

Tom K.

yeah, it's still not all muslims

forest

> Two-thirds (66%) said they completely condemned people who took part in stoning adulterers, and a further 13% condemned them to some extent.

That's 33% who do not completely condemn stoning people to death.

In Britain

It shows that it's pretty damn widespread. It's not some rare extremist view that 0.01% of Muslims share with other radical friends. It's pretty normal.

Tom K.

yeah

so?

in America (or Germany) people want capital punishment for all kind of weird stuff

forest

That's all I'm saying. These views are not uncommon.

Yes and I am very very strongly against capital punishment.

And I've ranted about that here as well.

Tom K.

10:45 AM

yeah, because these are views of people, not views of Muslims

forest

No, they are of Muslims. Compare it to the statistics for non-Muslims.

Where the numbers go way down.

To the point where the number thinking you should murder adulterers is negligible.

Tom K.

yeah, I'm not saying all people have the same cultural background

but now you are argument has become much more detailed and differenciated

forest

Well yeah, because I'm arguing, not ranting.

Tom K.

before it was just "Muslims be sexist!"

forest

When I'm ranting, I can be free to say "Islam is a sexist religion".

Now I have to specify "Islam promotes sexism and has a higher percentage of individuals with sexist views than other cultures".

Tom K.

10:48 AM

yeah, but you have to live with me saying "that is BS"

I wouldn't say promote

forest

Well you can argue that they aren't sexist all you want.

And I can point you to statistics that show otherwise.

Tom K.

I would say "doesn't combat"

yeah, cool

do that

more than welcome

forest

I just did.

> Nearly a quarter (23%) supported the introduction of sharia law in some areas of Britain, and 39% agreed that “wives should always obey their husbands”, compared with 5% of the country as a whole.

Tom K.

and more than welcome than "lol, look at these feminazis who said something on tv the other hahalol"

forest

And again, that's Britain. Not a very extremist place.

I wasn't talking about feminazis.

Tom K.

10:50 AM

yeah, sure. that's troubling

forest

That's a totally different rant.

Anonymous

@TomK. Well Tom, I was just using an anecdote of what I saw on a news program.

Anonymous

I don't see why I need evidence.

Anonymous

I never said anything about Feminism.

Anonymous

I never made a comment, a point - nothing.

Tom K.

10:50 AM

but you imply it with a statement like this

Anonymous

Merely just said I saw it on a news show that runs int the UK and I found it funny.

forest

@TomK. Why can't I dislike sexism and (radical) feminism at the same time?

Tom K.

that's what you both have to understand

Anonymous

No, I didn't imply it.

Anonymous

You read it like that. Just like I read your statement on public opinion incorrectly.

forest

10:51 AM

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6309983.stm

Anonymous

shrugs

Anonymous

I saw it on the news, I found it funny, I mentioned it.

Tom K.

maybe you didn't want to, but you have. because you used a language of people who do this constantly

Anonymous

If I really need to provide evidence for something I found funny then Christ.

Anonymous

I just won't talk if that's the case.

forest

10:52 AM

@TomK. Are you referring to racists who hate Arabs?

Tom K.

I was just referring to Josh and how he spoke about the clip

forest

oh

That was just him talking about an amusing event he saw. What of it?

Anonymous

I don't think I need to provide evidence for something like that when I made zero points on Feminism. Forest mentioned feminism, I remember I saw an interesting clip, I talked about it.

Tom K.

not saying you should stop talking, but think before you talk

forest

Some feminists do batshit insane things, and it's funny.

Tom K.

10:53 AM

I said my part towards that before

also, I have to leave now

Anonymous

I would agree with you if I said "I hate feminism" but I made no remark towards feminism.

forest

@J.J It's better to hate 3rd wave feminism.

Feminism as a whole has been beneficial.

Anonymous

I agree.

Tom K.

okay, one last thing: @J.J I have never heard you say this: "I watched this cool clip yesterday, where this feminist said these interesting things."

now I'm out, bye

Anonymous

Anyone who thinks women shouldn't be allowed to vote is a f*cking idiot @forest

forest

10:55 AM

lols

Had to get in the last word. :P

Anonymous

Among other things that they also didn't let women do.

forest

@J.J I fully agree.

Women should have the exact same legal rights as men, always.

Likewise they should be culturally free to do whatever they want.

Anonymous

Plus, literally, anyone with a brain says they accept the feminist movement as a whole.

Anonymous

But it's when they advertise things such as "pink tax" and "if you're a ring girl you must be getting forced"

forest

Yeah that kind of stuff is just bull.

Anonymous

10:56 AM

That is 3rd wave bs that is completely as moronic as not allowing women to vote in the first place.

forest

Or wanting to ban certain video games because they contain sexualized women.

Anonymous

Yeah that's stupid as well.

Anonymous

Telling humans they cannot feel attracted to other humans

Anonymous

FEMINISM!

Anonymous

Morons...

forest

10:57 AM

3rd wave is basically angry college students with a victim complex.

Anonymous

I shouldn't say this because Tom will murder me.

Anonymous

I saw a video of a feminist claiming to have been "catcalled"

Anonymous

So I watched the video, this gentleman politely said "hello, hows your day" and she screamed "dont cat call me" at him.

Anonymous

FEMINISM!

forest

O_o

That's just ridiculous.

Anonymous

10:58 AM

I mean, I agree that actual cat calling is a problem.

forest

I don't think it's a problem because it's pretty rare. It's just rude.

Anonymous

Yeah.

forest

It's bad but not common enough to require anything but the roll of the eyes.

Anonymous

I'd agree. But saying hello, that's not cat calling...

forest

Or a snide "Tell me, has this ever worked for you?"

The thing is, most people who are cat calling are blue collar workers.

Anonymous

10:59 AM

Or wolf whistling! Oh my God...............

forest

I've heard being anti-cat calling as classism!

Anonymous

People that want to ban that.

Anonymous

Morons. Yes ban people from indicating that they find you hot.

Anonymous

Jesus.

forest

I don't think it should be banned, but I do think it's very rude.

Anonymous

11:00 AM

Yeah it is.

Anonymous

But it shouldn't be banned lmao.

forest

I don't think any expression or speech should ever be banned.

I'm a free speech absolutist, so...

Anonymous

All that's happened - they've run out of things to victimise themselves over so they've dug up more stuff.

Anonymous

Well, they've not dug up anything.

forest

Well and the fact that there are countries where there is a lot of institutionalized sexism. Places where being a women means you lack certain legal rights.

That's where activists should focus their efforts.

Anonymous

11:01 AM

Yeah, which anyone with a brain would agree it's a problem.

Anonymous

But when you have other women saying that "strippers don't want to be strippers, no woman wants to flaunt their body" that's when you know you've taken it too far.

forest

Too bad @TomK. isn't here to hear us. :P

Yeah that's called sex-negative feminism.

Anonymous

As I said, that video I mentioned is a prime example of how idiotic they can be.,

forest

There's also sex-positive feminism, which states that women have a right to display their body if they wish, and that disallowing that is shaming female sexuality.

Anonymous

These women told them multiple times they enjoy their work and they refused to listen.

forest

11:02 AM

Yeah I've seen that kind of crap before.

OK, well my power just went out. Again.

And I still haven't fixed my generator.

So... when my UPS dies I'll ping out. Or whatever happens here.

Anonymous

FeelsBadMan.jpg

Anonymous

@forest To be honest, I'd argue it's pretty anti-woman.

forest

@J.J Demonizing female sexuality?

I agree.

Anonymous

Yes.

Anonymous

Luckily it's not our fight anymore.

Anonymous

11:08 AM

Equality has existed for quite a considerable amount of time in most 1st world countries now.

Anonymous

And if you feel so strongly about it they should go fight the equality battle in the middle-east.

Anonymous

But I think flinging stuff at walls where you have equality is moronic.

forest

In many places at least, yeah. There are some subcultures with lots of sexism, but in general the worst stuff is in the Middle East and Africa.

Anonymous

Problem is you will never fully eradicate sh*tty opinions.

Anonymous

People will always have them & sh*tty beliefs.

forest

11:10 AM

You don't have to censor shitty :P

Anonymous

You can only do so much, this movement is an example of taking to an extreme

forest

Imma power off now. I don't want to deep cycle my UPS battery.

Anonymous

Take care

forest

o/

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