The DMZ

3:18 AM

@RoryAlsop It lead me to discover Retrocomputing.SE and a number of interesting facts about the Z80 that I did not know before. I believe it is also what lead me to finding Crypto.SE. It's kinda crappy, but it's not bad.

daya

It is really true that HNQ helps us to discover interesting se sites and to be honest it lead me to find Security.SE!

2

Initially I was user of only SU and SO

forest

Exactly. And all this outrage is... insane. In fact, someone was saying that a question about how to tell a Facebook friend that they might be on the autism spectrum is an "ableist" question. In reality, calling that ableist is ableist! It shows that the person complaining on Twitter thinks of autism as a negative, bad thing.

And calling a question about avoiding inappropriate flirting "female treachery" is itself sexist. It's showing that the person complaining on Twitter associates women flirting with women being treacherous, which is itself quite sexist.

daya

3:47 AM

And what I am really wondering is that a single tweet by a person lead SE to exclude IPS from HNQ!

forest

Yep, that's what happened. Years of Meta discussions had no effect, then one person complains on Twitter and PR goes crazy with damage control, leading to a change within 40 minutes without any consultation of mods and a complete bypass of the normal QA process.

daya

I mean SE really cares about a mere tweet of an individual?

forest

@daya Yes, they do. This has happened before, too.

Arminius

They got sort of a Streisand effect out of it

forest

They listen to complaints on Twitter from randoms who don't even use the site than they do to regulars and site moderators who spend a lot of time and effort trying to improve the site and work together with developers.

Arminius

3:50 AM

OTOH, they probably thought that acting quickly was better than letting that thing go viral and from their perception damage their reputation

forest

@Arminius That's the job of PR. Screw SE users, listen to angry Twitter users.

Shoot first, ask questions later.

It's the reason trust in the SE staff is so low among users right now.

And this is just the staff blatantly spitting in our face.

We complain about low-quality HNQ posts for years and suggest changes, and absolutely nothing happens. They tell us everything is fine as it is. Then one sexist person on Twitter sees hidden subtext in a question and complains, and change is done in 40 minutes, without any review or discussion.

Arminius

Not trying to defend that decision, just offering possible explanations

daya

@forest this is really not the good thing

forest

Now, I don't even like IPS. I think it's a stupid site. The first time I joined, I was accused by a regular of supporting grooming and serial killers. I mean wtf.

But it's the trend that is worrying.

Removing a site from HNQ, even if that site is stupid (imo), sets bad precedent.

daya

Yeah, people don't like to look at HNQ, simply don't look at that

forest

3:56 AM

Well everyone has been asking for a profile setting to optionally hide it.

But because it wasn't an outraged Twitter user asking for it, nothing happened.

daya

I mean when I use SE in desktop(say SO). I just ask my question and close the site without even looking at HNQ because it is on right side of site

But mostly with phone (SE app) I tend to see HNQ because it shows as feed in app

Arminius

Hmm not sure "just look away" is a legitimate argument here

forest

I agree, since clickbait can suck up your time.

Arminius

I rarely intentionally read it, but eventually I will catch some titles

forest

That's why I want an option to hide it for times that I need to be productive.

Arminius

4:02 AM

I think to unauthenticated users they either shouldn't show HNQ at all or only show content related to the current site (that is, IT-related sites to a programmer, etc). And authenticated users should be given an option to hide/customize it

Most IT professionals, even if they don't intend to actively contribute, will eventually read SE/SO posts. And at least they shouldn't be distracted by relationship advice or boardgame questions in the sidebar

forest

Agreed. As I said earlier, I got sucked into hours of arguments including plenty of personal insults just by entering a single chat discussion on IPS.

Time I should have spent doing other things.

Arminius

Nonetheless, giving users their own HNQ subset doesn't solve the problem that HNQ favors clickbait over value

forest

That's true, but there's really no way to avoid that other than allowing moderators to remove something from HNQ without closing it.

Arminius

@forest What again was the argument against that?

forest

Well there's no problem, but the lie SE chose is that it's a performance issue.

(it isn't)

Arminius

4:16 AM

Yeah that doesn't make any sense at all

Ultimately, you could even just add a moderator-only no-hnq tag like featured on meta. But if mods were to determine what's too clickbaity for HNQ that's asking for trouble too

I'd rather have users vote on questions they find HNQ-worthy

forest

I don't think that would work, since then we'd only be voting for questions we like, not ones which are of general interest. What's cool to us is not cool to everyone else.

Arminius

Well, if it's a question I like I upvote it. About whether to vote it to HNQ I'd ask myself "is that something users from other sites should read / could enjoy".

Rory Alsop

8:26 AM

@forest that does actually seem to be one of the issues with their initial way to implement. Anyway - they admitted they did a bunch of stuff wrongly and are looking at ways to learn from this. We will get an improved HNQ function (hopefully giving individuals the option to disable hnq for themselves)

And I really hope the behaviours change

Hacked me off intensely

Tom K.

8:42 AM

@forest I think the decision was made by a CM. I wouldn't call that PR

forest

@TomK. I was referring to the purpose, not the actual department.

forest

11:03 AM

Haha, just kidding, everyone's already been hacked. I wonder if today's the day we find out about it.

Can confirm. This is indeed what many infosec folk wonder about.

Benoit Esnard

The hover text is perfect

Anonymous

lol.

Anonymous

Hah, I just noticed the hover text.

forest

It's so true too.

;)

Anonymous

11:19 AM

:p

Anonymous

"(removed)"

Anonymous

Irony.

forest

Nothing but a small coughing fit.

;)

The problem is that people here are far too whitehat.

They hate fun.

Anonymous

Haha :D

forest

Not that I think very highly of script kiddies, of course... Unfortunately some people tend to associate blackhat with script kiddie, especially when so many kiddies who fancy themselves "blackhat SEO experts" have made such a label for themselves.

Anonymous

11:27 AM

:p

Anonymous

How do you define a script kiddie?

Anonymous

I define it to be; someone who has no willingness or desire to learn about the tools/methods and actions they're carrying out.

forest

Blackhat wannabe meets Dunning–Kruger.

Anonymous

:p

forest

See also: Every member of "Anonymous" since like, 2008.

Anonymous

11:29 AM

Do they still exist?

forest

Kinda.

I had some guy on Anonops IRC (every once in a while I go there to troll them or make them panic) tell me that he was selling "ring 2 rootkits".

Anonymous

So what do they do nowadays?

Anonymous

And when they did these big "hacks" was that because of a talented individual or what?

forest

Yeah, usually a talented individual. That was a decade ago, though.

Anonymous

I figured.

forest

11:31 AM

Nowadays they try to be white knights to bitch and moan about various social injustices, ISIS, and pedophiles and try to split off into individual "operations" where they never get the critical mass of people to even DDoS (something they consider "hacking"), leading to the operation to die out. Not before they create a dramatic YouTube video stating their intentions, of course.

Anonymous

I feel most people who join a group like that are just edgy and they don't really understand what they're joining for or what their group actually does :p

forest

Well the group doesn't actually do anything. Basically they just DDoS things based on group consensus. Or at least did half a decade ago.

Anonymous

Yeah it's all very hollywood looking if you ask me.

Anonymous

Kinda' reminds me of V for Vendetta, lol.

forest

mhm

Anonymous

11:32 AM

Just one big joke.

forest

That's actually where it came from.

Anonymous

I figured.

forest

The masks, that is. Was a great movie, tbh.

Anonymous

Yes it was.

Anonymous

I will have to watch it again I think I was a little too young to understand the main point.

forest

11:33 AM

The idea behind Anonymous was good back in 2008 when they basically fucked over a bunch of Scientologists and screwed over HB Gary, but nowadays they're even less than script kiddies. They're just fun targets to troll.

The best part was when I found out that one of the prominent "members" was basically a pedophile and enjoyed screwing with the group by (ab)using the trust they have in him. I love that guy, he fucked with them so much.

He seems to have had (or still has?) far more time on his hands than I do to screw with script kiddies, of course. I dunno why I even bother tbh. Kind of a rush to see so many people panic and make pathetic threats.

Anonymous

That's made me want to watch VFV now :p

forest

It's like Fight Club, but more about politics than socioeconomics.

Anonymous

I've never seen Fight Club :p

forest

Oh god, go watch it.

It's amazing. By far my favorite movie.

And I'm very picky about movies.

Anonymous

Alright, I will :p

Anonymous

11:39 AM

Have you ever seen A Clockwork Orange?

forest

Yep. Gotta love dat ultraviolence.

Anonymous

Oh wow, I'm surprised.

Anonymous

I didn't think it would be a massive cult thing in your part of the world.

Anonymous

In the UK it's a massive cult-classic now, people watch it just because they know it was banned at one point.

Anonymous

I've still never actually seen it. It's my dads favourite film which I find odd but interesting.

forest

11:40 AM

I didn't even know it was banned. It's not really a "cult" thing here, but it is considered a classic. And you should see it, for sure. It's a very good movie.

Go watch it, my droog! Tis a real horrorshow.

It should get you interessovatted. ;)

Anonymous

I will. Stanley Kubrick is a great writer.

Anonymous

Yes it was banned, maybe not over there but it was banned here.

Anonymous

I think they only unbanned it once Kubrick died.

forest

It was originally a book, you know.

Anonymous

I do know that.

forest

11:43 AM

The language is also quite inventive.

Sort of sets up the mood in a very clever way.

Called it nadsat, I think.

Anonymous

Correct.

forest

You seem to know a lot about it for someone who has never seen the movie.

Anonymous

It's because I've been on the fence about watching it for the best part of a year, lol.

forest

Why the hesitation?

Anonymous

I don't know really, partly because I rarely watch films.

Anonymous

11:46 AM

And I guess the other reason is just that it looks so fucking strange and like you need to be off your face on cocaine to even enjoy it, lol.

forest

Not at all. It's something you can enjoy completely sober.

In fact, I'd say you'd have to be to fully understand it.

Anonymous

Hmm, I might read the book before I watch the film.

forest

I usually do the opposite. When I read the book first, I find myself criticizing the film for straying off of the path of the book. When I watch the film first, I enjoy it, but still manage to gain so much more from the book when I finally read it.

Substitute "book" with source material and "film" with adaption.

Anonymous

Hmm, that's a good idea actually.

Anonymous

I will watch it at some point, as I said it was my dads favourite film.

forest

11:48 AM

He definitely has good taste.

Anonymous

He hates movies, lol.

Anonymous

I think that film and Reservoir Dogs are the only films he actually likes.

Anonymous

Never heard of that film, I've been debating watching The Silence of the Lambs for literally like two years.

forest

You know, to this day, I can only associate the song Singin' in the Rain with rape.

Anonymous

I think it's called that... But I've never seen it either.

Anonymous

11:51 AM

Ha! Yeah that scene is pretty fucked up...

forest

@J.J Silence of the Lambs was a sort of meh horror movie, imo.

Anonymous

Hmm. I really liked Shawshank Redemption.

Anonymous

I want to watch.. Is it, The Green Lantern?

forest

Never saw that. I've been considering reading the book, but first I have to re-read the Xanth series. :P

Anonymous

No I don't think that's it... It's the one with Tom Hanks about a prisoner...

Anonymous

11:52 AM

I cannot remember what it's called, it looks good.

forest

I tend to like only older movies, tbh.

Anonymous

It's a pretty old film :p

forest

Past like 2000, movies went downhill fast.

Trainspotting is also a good movie, if you like drug movies.

Anonymous

I've also been meaning to watch that film about the Jews during WWII but I cannot remember what it's called..

Anonymous

See? I don't watch a lot of movies.

Anonymous

11:53 AM

I just know which ones I want to watch and then I never end up watching them.

forest

Der ewige Jude? :P

(I actually saw that "documentary". Apparently Einstein is "the relativity jew")

Anonymous

I will get the name :p

forest

Schindler's List?

Anonymous

That's it!

forest

Only movie about Jews in WWII that I really loved.

Anonymous

11:54 AM

It looks very good, yes.

forest

Had a brilliant use of mixed color/monochrome for emotional impact.

And based on a true story, too!

Anonymous

Ah, The Green Mile is the Tom Hanks film.

Anonymous

About the 2000 thing, one of my favourite films is 2001 IIRC, it's called The Pianist.

forest

Don't think I saw that one.

Anonymous

It's Adrien Brody, based on a true story and Adrien Brody is a method actor which is why I love him so much.

forest

11:56 AM

Only film with music as a theme that I've ever liked was Amadeus.

Anonymous

He lived in complete isolation for 6-12 months in order to get into the role.

Anonymous

(It's about a Jewish musician living in Nazi Germany)

forest

Most WWII/Holocaust stories I tend not to like due to them being too... preachy.

Anonymous

Yeah... I don't like that much either.

forest

They characterize Hitler as Voldemort on steroids, which simply isn't an accurate (or even believable) representation of someone who grew up in his culture.

Anonymous

11:58 AM

Like The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas was a great film but it was a little preachy.

forest

Never saw that one either.

Anonymous

Was a great film nonetheless.

Anonymous

One modern film I like but was ruined is The Imitation Game.

Anonymous

As someone who is interested in Cryptography and the history of it there are too many historical inaccuracies in that film.

Anonymous

And in-fact the inaccuracies within Turing are some of the worst.

forest

12:00 PM

Heh, yeah a lot of modern films based on reality are taken to the extreme.

That's why I liked Amadeus, since it was very clear that it was quite made up.

Anonymous

For example; they make it seem like Turing was not open about his sexuality and for the time he was pretty open about it.

forest

Yeah, they're just milking the cash cow by exploiting modern political hotbuttons.

Anonymous

They also make it seem like he had Aspergers yet every single one of his colleagues accounts said he actually understood language quite well, they make him seem arrogant and like he built The Bombe himself but again that is incorrect.

Anonymous

In fact the film mentions that his Bombe is based on a Polish mathematicians design but they never mention the mathematician, things like this just annoy me.

forest

Yeah, that does seem like it would ruin it.

Anonymous

12:03 PM

Yeah... Especially because it means that people who watch it seem to think they understand Turing and sadly, Cumberbatches depiction of Turing is just incorrect.

Anonymous

However, he does a good job of acting I must give him that.

forest

I hate most modern actors.

Anonymous

But for all it's faults... Keira is in it so that makes up for a lot ;)

forest

I find their acting to be exaggerated and hard to believe.

Anonymous

lol. Yes, I mostly agree.

Anonymous

12:05 PM

As much as I like Keira Knightley she is a s*hit actress, it has to be said.

Anonymous

But yeah for the most part a lot of modern actors aren't that great. That is kinda' why I like method acting it's more... Real.

Anonymous

They get into the role they are playing properly and it makes a better product imo.

forest

But even when doing that, it feels... forced.

Anonymous

Yeah it does sometimes for sure.

forest

I mean actors are almost as bad as politicians in terms of how deluded they are.

And that certainly affects their acting.

Anonymous

12:07 PM

For me the movie industry is really going downhill.

Anonymous

Just like the music industry.

forest

It's already dead to me.

Anonymous

Well, tbh the music industry has already hit rock bottom.

forest

True. You know all the "hooks" in modern pop songs are developed primarily by computer algorithms? Or at least heavily influenced by in order to create the most catchy tune without actually being a good song.

It hit rock bottom as soon as the musicians and the singers were different people.

Anonymous

To be honest, for me music is mostly about lyrics.

forest

12:09 PM

Back when the people actually performing music made the lyrics and melody? That was the golden age of music. Back when being "beautiful" had nothing to do with it.

Anonymous

I think that is why I like "emo" music so much, the words just hit me.

Anonymous

And I know a lot of "emo" songs follow the same lyric trends.

Anonymous

But I don't know, I've always sympathised with those lyrics more than anything.

forest

For me it's mostly about melody. My hearing is not great, so I rarely can understand the lyrics. Not to mention, I listen to a lot of Japanese music, and my understanding of Japanese is too limited for that. :P

Meh, I've never really liked emo stuff, although some of it has a nice melody.

Anonymous

:p I listen to a lot of Bring me the Horizon, A Day to Remember, Taking Back Sunday, Story of the Year people like that.

forest

12:11 PM

That one kid who hanged herself on livestream left a lot of Instagram videos with emo music, which is honestly the first time I was ever exposed to it lol

And it was... really edgy, even if the melody was catchy.

Anonymous

Yeah... I listen to edgy music but I don't really look edgy, lol.

Anonymous

I just like it, I don't know why :p

Anonymous

I also like old Eminem a lot, that was probably one of the first artists I ever listened to.

forest

Eminem is good. I really liked Stan or whatever it was called.

Anonymous

That's a great song.

Anonymous

12:13 PM

I think my favourite one is probably... Spacebound or Ems verse in No Love.

Anonymous

The lyrics in that verse of No Love are just fucking.. Ridiculous.

forest

201 (South Park)

"201" is the sixth episode of the fourteenth season of South Park, and the 201st overall episode of the series. It originally aired on Comedy Central in the United States on April 21, 2010. The episode continued multiple storylines from the previous episode, "200", in which a group of angry celebrities demand South Park produce the Muslim prophet Muhammad. In "201", a superhero-like group of religious figures team up to save South Park from the celebrities and their monster Mecha-Streisand, while Eric Cartman learns the true identity of his father. The episode was written and directed by series...

I love when sites leave juicy data available on their website without knowing it.

Anonymous

12:32 PM

Oops, I forgot about language :p

forest

;)

Seriously though, no one gives a fuck about a single "fucking".

Anonymous

:p

jdgregson

9:53 PM

My company's CEO just received a spear-phishing email. The email originated from 29.2.108.85, which resolves to "DoD Network Information Center" when the owner is looked up.

That's at least slightly spooky.

Transcript for