@sarah in light of both yours and my recent edits to the online resources post on meta, do you think we should add another section for something to the effect of 'How To' or 'Instructional' or something to that effect? Or should we just keep our two links as they are and not add much more that is like that?

@Daи Oh definitely make it organized by types of resources.

@Sarah yes, but I mean do you think we should make a new section for the types of links we both posted (i.e. encouraging more like them) or just leave ours as is?

I see cons and pros for both, so figured I'd get a second opinion (and since you posted one, yours is the most important opinion :P )

@Sarah pros: people learn more about how to use tools and resources

Cons: people may post biased material or stuff that introduces hermeneutics in with teaching a tool

@Daи Whatever you think. I put it in the wiki list as I do think it is easier to find things in one organized post than to scroll through several posts. I would like to see a brief explanation of each tool next to it for folks who are not familiar with the tools. Then again, you want an expert site and experts would know what those tools are. It is also a site for those interested; so, it would be nice to cater to the novice but bring us to a new level.

@Sarah Are you near the library/around, Sarah?

@JohnMartin right here.

Great. I have parts of those charts together. You won't believe what some detail is confirming and then showing.

@JohnMartin I look forward to seeing your work.

I have 3 ways to show some of Noah's relatives got on the ark, but his father was dead already; more important, with his grandfather alive yet not allowed on, he must have drowned.

I can send you more later.

Sorry. That's 3 ways to show the time from the opening of the floodgates to when they got out/off was more than one year, no question about it.

I'll talk with you later.

@JohnMartin Sorry, I stepped away and did not see your posts. Bullinger says, "Methuselah = When he is dead it shall be sent, i.e. the deluge" (The Companion Bible, note on Genesis 5:21). Tradition appears to support this. I am not sure how the year he died could determine if he died 7 days before the flood or in the flood unless it was on the break of the year.

@Caleb I see in my notices "user removed" just curious what that is?

@Sarah That happens when omebody with an account on the site that had voted for you requests to have their account deleted. All activity on the site that came from them is removed, so you get notified about the change in your reputation because their votes are removed.

@Caleb interesting. Thanks

@Sarah That post is definitely not targeting experts, as experts should already know how to find reliable sources (although they may not know how to find them online for free). I'm all for an explanation being next to each

@Sarah that's also why I wrote my post on Strong's, to help folks learn how to use the tool effectively and not use it improperly

@Sarah wanting an expert-level site doesn't mean excluding non-expert participants. On the contrary, it means helping all benefit from experts' knowledge and experience. And posts like that on meta are great ways to do that! In reality most of us are interested novices (me too!), and that's OK. The goal is then to find experts when answering (citing experts as sources) and reproducing their analysis so we can all learn from it. It doesn't mean restricting the site to only experts

@Daи Our helps and aids must be brought down to the novice level in order to lead the users up to a higher level. Users themselves need not be experts, but must know how to call upon the experts and communicate information effectively on the site.

@Sarah yes, I fully agree

@Sarah that was my goal with that post on Strong's

@Daи very nice!

@Sarah the goal is for amateurs to learn and maybe even become experts one day. So I want them to understand, but I also don't want to 'dumb it down' too much, because they should learn the lingo of the experts along with the accompanying skills

and I say this as an amateur who has merely benefited from lots of formal education in the field

there are still many areas where I am still only on a beginner-level, but when it comes to Greek I have a lot of training and access to expert resources

@Daи Sure, like "Corpus!"

@Sarah yes, that term is from linguistics

@Sarah the books I've learned the most from required me to keep a dictionary handy :P

@Daи sounds like corpse to me!

@Sarah PS I just answered your question

@Sarah facetiously: "What is this NT Corps they keep talking about? How do I join?" :P

I think I spelled that wrong! I meant the dead body-there, edited!

@Sarah haha, well in that case, "Why are we all studying this dead literature?"

:P

@Daи LOL!

@Sarah but, but, I thought the author of Hebrews said it was living and active? And didn't Paul say God 'breathed' it?

:P

@Daи LOL! Yeah, but it has to be a corpse first! LOL

@Daи What he said and did is God breathed, it is what the rest of us do with it that is problematic! What we are really dealing with here on BH-SE is the valley of dry bones! Thats where the corpus comes in!

@Sarah yes and no. There are ways to deal with it as a living text while still showing work

@Sarah we just haven't had a lot of folks do this well

@Daи Indeed, Those to whom it is alive will accomplish this better than those for whom it is merely a text.

@Sarah bingo, unfortunately I'm not a good example because I treat it more as a text here - even though in my personal life it is much more than a corpus :P

@Sarah yep, that question would no longer fly. I sometimes debate even keeping it around as it it no longer a good fit here, but I also think some of the answers are excellent and I don't want to see them deleted

@Daи Why would it no longer fly? IT deals with hermeneutic approach.

@Sarah sorry, you are right, now it does (I edited it)

I was thinking of the original version of the question

@Daи Very good.

@Sarah (sometimes I forget what I've done in the past, since I've done quite a few edits and whatnot here :P )

@Daи You have done a lot to say the least!

@Sarah as have you, your edits and moderation activities are much appreciated

we need more users to step up and self-moderate this place

I was doing that also before being asked to do it in a more official capacity, but because my votes are now binding on some things I don't cast close votes or delete votes in many instances where I would have previously

I leave it for the community to handle

@Daи I try to help out folks who are were I was just yesterday! I know how it feels. While I do not yet have a full grasp on the direction the site is headed, I think I have a fairly good grasp on its core and try to communicate that as best I can.

@Daи That would be an adjustment.

@Sarah it is, while I am still technically just a regular user like everyone else, I also am a little less free to exert my opinion through certain votes (close and delete) since doing so now takes immediate effect. So I have to step back and try to lead more, letting others learn to cast such votes

once I see some community momentum on closing/deleting, I'll usually jump in and help out, but we just don't have enough users casting these kinds of votes on a regular basis yet

@Daи I prefer not to cast such votes, but sometimes will to support the decision of other well seasoned users.

@Sarah and that is your choice, but if it is clearly off topic, please do VTC. And if it is clearly NAA, please do flag an answer

that brings it to others' attention and is how the system is designed to be used

@Daи NAA?

@Sarah not an answer

@Daи Sure.

for instance, if someone shows no work whatsoever, that is considered NAA. But more importantly, if someone posts rubbish, it's gotta go

like Q: "Who is 'them' in passage X?"

But I often try t remedy these rather than vote to close--seems so abrupt and harsh. This is partly why I would rather see some reigns placed early on.

A: "I'd like to sell you some pain medication. Click this link." (spam flag here)

@Daи LOL! I haven't seen any of that!

@Sarah understandable, but keep in mind that closing is not meant to be seen as punishment, it is putting a question on hold to prevent answers while we fix it and reopen it

@Sarah it happens. We don't get much spam here, but sometimes

@Daи This is a clear example of what simple prompts in the initial/initiating stage of users posting Questions in particular could avoid!

@Daи And this as well!

@Sarah yeah, but that's why I posted Jeff's answer on meta to your question, it is highly unlikely that SE will change the whole system

@Sarah the tools they have given are voting (up, down, close, delete) and flags

those are the tools that need to be used

@Daи What is his ID in here. I' ping him!

@Sarah he no longer works for SE, even though he was a co-founder

@Daи We constantly say the same things overand over! If such is the case in all SE sites, why not nip it in the bud!

@Daи Ah, I wouldnot have been so bold anyway!

@Sarah other sites have different issues

@Sarah but SE has decided that the tools we should use to handle those issues are votes and flags

@Daи Do all require that OPs show some research they have done in pursuit of their answer?

@Sarah so in the mean time, while waiting for your features to be implemented (which will be a long time, if ever), I recommend using the tools we already have in place :)

@Sarah that is what I call minimal research, which is hard to quantify here

@Sarah but yes

@Daи So a simple prompt asking for such when new users post would benefit all sites!

On SO for instance, in the sidebar when asking a question it says, "Provide details. Share your research."

@Sarah I doubt SE developers see it that way

@Sarah you're more than welcome to petition for change (but also do it on meta SO since more eyes will see it, including developers), but you should also realize it likely won't happen

@Daи Right, but what if the poster could not post without filling in a section showing what research they have already done!

@Sarah I just don't see them ever changing that

@Daи I'll trust you on this. I do not have time to waste! I am studying Hebrew.

Be sure to post it on meta.stackoverflow.com

@Daи Can you help me narrow it down to the elements that would benefit all SE sites.

you'll get a better idea what the 'whole network' thinks, but I'll warn you, they're not always as nice as we are here :P

@Sarah nope, because I also don't have time to waste ;)

@Daи sure.

@Sarah I just honestly don't think it will go anywhere

@Daи OK.

@Sarah plus I think it may be somewhat of a duplicate of this question

and I posted that answer in my meta post

@Sarah I used SO as a programming resource long before I discovered that they had other kinds of sites

and in general, if it won't work for SO and improve it, they probably won't do it here

@Daи OK thanks.

@Sarah see this also

@Sarah realistically, if more people voted (up and down) and VTC'd and VTD'd, we'd quickly separate the wheat from the chaff and improve our signal-to-noise ratio

but a majority of our participants are Christian, and I think they tend to interpret 'be nice' as don't downvote or VTC or VTD - but these are not being mean - they are just site tools

the voting tools on SE are like bricks in that sense. Voting down simply means that 'as this currently stands, it is not helpful by our site standards'

you can always upvote later if it improves

but in the meantime, the DV helps the system and other users realize there is a problem

and VTC's help a poor question get put on hold quickly so that it can be fixed, that way users don't waste their time posting an answer to a bad question that once fixed, may require their answer to be deleted or edited anyways

@Sarah but you are free to disagree. I just think the tools should not be seen as being 'mean' or 'harsh' to people - they protect other users as well

@Daи Good word.

@Caleb, I am sorry, Jack recommended to another user that he handle low rating posts by flagging them specifically so the mods could take a look at them. It occurred to me that with all the efforts I have put forth in helping others improve their posts, that I have a slew of very low rated posts I should attend to. Hence all the flags.

@Sarah No worries.

@Caleb Ahh, but I used all my flags.

I'm not quite sure what Jack was suggesting, but that's not how the flag tool should generally be used.

@Caleb very good.

The one an the post you tried to and could not delete was correct usage though, that's something that required moderator intervention.

@Sarah There is a daily quota, you'll be able to flag again tomorrow I think.

@Caleb OK, so if an answer is tied to a question and I think it should be deleted then flag that kind?

I went ahead and left comments on all the posts you flagged so you should be able to find them easily. Maybe you could make a combined meta question for them, or break them into a couple sets based on what you think the issue might be and ask for feedback that way.

@Sarah Anything you think needs doing but the system doesn't give you permission should be flagged, yes.

@Caleb OK, thank you so much. May I ask, if all these answers have a 0 vote then is it safe to assume that they offer nothing of value?

When you are done with the comments I left you can flag them as obsolete too since they serve no purpose for future visitors. I just wanted to mark the spots so you didn't have to find the posts again.

@Caleb If they are all the same, you may delete them. I know which Q & As they are because they all have 0 votes. I can find them easily enough

@Sarah No, I wouldn't assume that. It may me true in some cases, but our voting volume is low enough it's quite possible useful but not outstanding answers got a pass on voting, but that isn't necessarily a reason to remove them.

@Sarah Ok will do.

@Caleb So if I wanted to bring them to chat, how would I do so without them getting buried or missed since noone is really in here. It seems too petty to be memorialized in meta.

@Sarah That's what meta is for. If you want feedback from more than whoever is bored or ADD enough to be hanging out in chat, meta in the right venue. I wouldn't post separately for each 0 score, but maybe pick a few that are similar and ask what you just asked me: "Do 0 scores like this, this and this serve a purpose, how should I evaluate whether or not to keep them?"

@Caleb Ah, and so the meta post could benefit others in the future!

@Sarah That would be the hope.

@Caleb Thank you for your time and help.

np