The Library

Jack Douglas

7:27 AM

@Dan thoughts on this edit?

Jack Douglas

3:05 PM

-1

Q: How do we have wailing wall if Jesus said not a single stone should stand?

As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and h...

prophecy

would be good to have some more input on this ^^^^

Soldarnal

4:02 PM

@JackDouglas What happened with the "Not constructive" or "Not a real question" options on VtC?

Jack Douglas

Blog - Stack Exchange: The War of the Closes

Jay Hanlon on June 25, 2013

It pains me when I hear people say that our sites are unfriendly, or that we chase new users away. But it’s a hard problem, because our highest priority has always been the quality of content on our sites. And it still is. We can’t lower our standards. We won’t.

But we have been working hard to make our sites more welcoming, reminding users that feedback can be clear and nice, and helping new users learn the ropes before they get frustrated. And, as of today, we’ve completely overhauled closing. …

we can create our own 'off topic' reasons

Soldarnal

@JackDouglas The three options replacing the two I mentioned don't really fit in this case

Jack Douglas

I have to say I agree with you

Soldarnal

But I agree with Caleb's first comment: "What are you trying to learn here?"

This is a diatribe (poorly) disguised as a question

(Same for the recent series of questions regarding the conquests)

Jack Douglas

'opinion-based' is maybe the closest buy it isn't exactly right

have you voted?

Soldarnal

4:10 PM

@JackDouglas I have now; I voted already on the conquest question

Jack Douglas

which one is that?

Soldarnal

-2

Q: What about the feelings of the girls ,when they see their father,mother,brother and relatives killed before her eyes as in Numbers 31:17-18?

What about the feelings of the girls ,when they see their father,mother,brother and relatives killed before her eyes as in Numbers 31:17-18? Why bible doesn't consider their cry of loss ? how a girl can live in a race with contentment who kills her family ? Don't they have vengeance ?

numbers

Jack Douglas

ah

I think we can add something like 'not constructive' to the 'off-topic' list, can you think of a wording that captures the essence of what is wrong with these questions?

Soldarnal

@JackDouglas Or is it better to flag and delete?

Jack Douglas

dunno, I think closing is the best option

Soldarnal

4:13 PM

I don't like the delete option necessarily, because it seems easily construed as avoiding conversation

Jack Douglas

we delete stuff that is ranty, spam, not a question, totally off-topic etc

these are just misguided

Soldarnal

@JackDouglas Right, they serve no purpose on the site

Whereas questions that are near off-topic serve as markers for the boundaries of the site

Or duplicates help people find the original, etc...

Jack Douglas

spot on

how about 'off topic' 'this question is not, in essence, about the text, but about an idea"?

would that apply to these two?

hmmm, maybe not

Soldarnal

@JackDouglas I don't know; the issue is the aim of the question - they're trying to be argumentative rather than trying to learn. If someone was genuinely naive in their interpretation of a statement about no stone being left on another, I'm sure people would be glad to answer the question

That's why "Not a real question" strikes me as appropriate

Jack Douglas

This question seems intended to provoke argument rather than to spring from a genuine desire to understand the text. — Jack Douglas 19 secs ago

it's got to go, it's just a question of making the reason clear to the OP

Soldarnal

4:23 PM

@JackDouglas I think we can allow some criticism, which is why I edited one of his other questions to make it suitable

But I agree that one had to go

Jack Douglas

He's accepted your edit

I should probably have made a more extensive edit to the other or left it alone

feel free to attack it if you think it is worth it?

otherwise we can leave it up to him

Soldarnal

@JackDouglas Attack which one?

Jack Douglas

I mean the closed one: if you can salvage it with a big edit

Soldarnal

I think his question about James is possibly salvageable. I don't think the one about the wailing wall is, though.

Jack Douglas

OK that's fine: it'll help him learn the site if he's willing to be guided

both edits and closures do that I think

Soldarnal

4:35 PM

I find some irony in that critical scholars date Luke after 70AD because they claim its version of the Olivet discourse is so obviously edited to reflect what happened in the war.

Jack Douglas

5:00 PM

@Soldarnal that is ironic

and a useful warning

TRiG

5:19 PM

@Soldarnal Parsimony.

Jack Douglas

@TRiG aka knowing what you think already and evidence be damned

it is everywhere

TRiG

@JackDouglas aka fitting new information into existing information as neatly as possible, I'd say.

Jack Douglas

@TRiG what existing information is there that proves the universe sprang into existence by random chance obviating the need for a creator?

every world-view or framework rests on pre-suppositions

the athiest one is no different

TRiG

@JackDouglas That's ... a bit of a jump away from a specific example of fake prophecy, isn't it?

Jack Douglas

not really, because that is the underlying principle behind dismissing God's ability to see the future

one already presupposes the impossibility of such knowledge

TRiG

5:31 PM

By which I mean, unless there's any actual,. real evidence to date Luke before 70CE, dating it after in accordance with what's in the text seems to make sense, doesn't it?

@JackDouglas Improbability, certainly.

Jack Douglas

there is lots of real evidence used in dating texts

which is useful to theists and athiests alike

we do have common ground

just not our pre-suppositions

Dating the Bible

The oldest surviving Hebrew Bible manuscripts date to about the 2nd century BCE (fragmentary). The oldest record of the complete text survives in a Greek translation called the Septuagint, dating to the 4th century CE (Codex Sinaiticus). The oldest extant manuscripts of the vocalized Masoretic text, which modern editions are based upon, date to the 9th century CE. With the exception of a few biblical sections in the Prophets, virtually no biblical text is contemporaneous with the events it describes, and was subject to revision by later authors. From the internal testimony of the texts, ...

TRiG

> Gospel of Luke 60-90 CE

Jack Douglas

That's the best estimate afaik

without resorting to 'it must be wrong' arguments

TRiG

@JackDouglas In which case, after 70AD isn't much of a stretch.

Jack Douglas

of course not

but 60-90 is more useful to me

the point is, I might as well argue that it must have been written before 70AD because I trust Luke's integrity and think he would have presented the prophecy differently had the event been in the past at time of writing

it is biases like that that get in the way of the scientific process of dating

TRiG

5:43 PM

@JackDouglas It's a matter of balancing likelihoods, isn't it?

Jack Douglas

well there is some hard science in there too

at one time many dismissed the gospel of John as certainly pseudographical

current science shows that none of the accepted texts is certainly pseudographical: this is exceedingly important

because these texts make very lofty claims to integrity

I've personally no interest in basing my life on things reported by unreliable liars who weren't even around at the time of the events

of course it doesn't prove reliability but it's important that it doesn't disprove it either

TRiG

@JackDouglas Like Deuteroisiah?

Jack Douglas

@TRiG I've heard there were dozens of Isaiahs :)

but having read it, I'm reasonably satisfied about it's authorship and think the arguments against (that I've heard) are spurious

to be fair, I ain't an expert

TRiG

@JackDouglas I think the people who know what they're talking about are pretty sure it's a compilation.

Jack Douglas

sure, because of the prophecy it contains :)

the style is different in different sections; wow, so's mine when I write

TRiG

5:54 PM

@JackDouglas I don't think that's their reasoning.

Jack Douglas

@TRiG it certainly plays a part: particularly the naming of Cyrus

but I don't generally trust anyone's research as 'truth' (rather than interesting) unless I know their framework: it filters through into every area of their thinking

which basically means I'm left making up my own mind about a lot of stuff

TRiG

@JackDouglas I do my best to respect experts and expertise. (This is one major reason why I despise alt medicine junk: they steal the respect real scientists have earned.)

Jack Douglas

basically I advocate keeping your antenna up at all times: eg a financial 'expert' will never advise me that the best investment for my money is to give generously, but that doesn't mean there isn't sense in what he does say

I'm sure there is a converse rationale for an atheist conversing with a Christian

TRiG

@JackDouglas Well, it probably isn't the best "investment for your money", if becoming obscenely rich is your goal. (I'm guessing it isn't, as you're not an American RTC.)

Jack Douglas

@TRiG :)

There is plenty of secular scientific research backing up the idea that greed isn't necessarily the best strategy if selfish gain is your goal

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