@user2479 Do you have some video?

@PaulVargas I probably shouldn't have recommended David Hogan to you, after seeing all the 'flack' posted about his ministry on line. Even so, there are numerous, documented accounts of "resuscitations", one of them was by Reinhard Bonke in Africa, where a man laid dead for 12 hours.

@user2479 Before the resurrection, were declared clinically dead? Is there evidence?

@PaulVargas The one I quoted I believe was aired on CNN, I saw the video some years ago, but I will dig it out again.

@PaulVargas Here's [one] (amazon.com/90-Minutes-Heaven-Story-Death/dp/0800759494)

@PaulVargas I believe the issue isn't "why aren't there more...", I believe the issue is "Why aren't we seeing Mark 16:"These signs shall follow them that BELIEVE..." The reality of the answer to that question will shake you to your core; we have been 'duped' and we don't know it.

@PaulVargas The Issue is God's Word's don't mean anything-but "man's words" DO. Jesus never took a census and polled an audience for a 'buy in' for what He was teaching; and His Words had Power!

@PaulVargas So, we are of the 'mindset' that if modern medicine or technology can't perform the miracle, then we "grasp for faith". It should be the other way around-1st we ask God about our condition, then, if He directs us towards the physician, go.

@user2479 OK. If you wish, feel free to share links to trustworthy witnesses and irrefutable evidence. :-)

@PaulVargas (Last comment) I witnessed my daughter's miraculous healing, and saw the Xrays after the MD's said "her lungs will be scarred for life". Faith, "present tense, living and active" sets up an environment for healing. Yes, it is difficult because we can't "control" God. But if we trust His Promises to us, He will never let us down.

@user2479 It is a very controversial issue. I will follow this closely. I thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts about it. ;-)

@PaulVargas Your welcome.

@Davïd I have a soft spot in my heart for LISP.

It was the first programming language I got into (because it was the extension language built into AutoCAD). I will even concede that LISP in Emacs beats the pants off of vimscript. Also, even the enemy can be ingenious ;)

Even worse, did you see where I answered an editor question with something not vim?

@user2479 Really? Are you seriously recommending people Google "David Hogan" as a credible example of the dead being raised? Have you done any research on him yourself? Do you realize your own credibility and that of the argument you are trying to make goes out the window when you get behind something that is demonstrably false?

I'm would not argue all modern miracles are false—I believe God can and does still do miracles—but if you are going to try to support that claim the worst thing you can possibly do is bolster your argument with kookery.

If outlandish claims don't stand up to even basic critical examination, citing them as support only drags any kernel of truth in your argument into the mud. And if you don't demonstrate that you're willing to be critical and examine the evidence you use, who should trust that your case is sound?

@Caleb yeah, David Hogan isn't a good example to use for proof of miracles.

in fact, most of the examples I was given when I was a Pentecostal turned out to be frauds or charlatans

And trust me, I really wanted to believe in them

the final straw was when everyone ran off to get kicked in the face by Todd Bentley. Turns out he was having an affair during his prayer revival meetings in Lakeland, Florida - not to mention the 'violent' methods he used in his supposed healings. And yet everyone insists that it was a move of God. Crazy stuff.

And then ABC does a special on him and find 0 verified healings

not even one

@Daи Clearly you're cessationist.

@PaulVargas not at all - I've spoken in tongues

and I believe in miracles

And I believe I've even seen a few. But never by someone who bragged about how many miracles they've performed. And often the folks through whom it was done never talked about it, or praised God and were just as dumbfounded as I was

but the power of folks to delude themselves is strong, so it's hard to say sometimes

@PaulVargas so I'm open to the miraculous

@Daи Really? Have you had an interpreter?

@PaulVargas it was not in the context of a worship service, no one was around

it was in the context of private prayer

@Daи Sure. ;-)

I believe that most of the times I spoke in tongues when I was in the Assemblies of God were self-delusions

i.e. I just moved my tongue and spoke gibberish

And I watched youth pastors 'coach' kids into doing this over and over

I don't think it's a gift for everyone

but I do believe that one time, when I was alone in prayer, it happened

but I wouldn't say I have that gift or anything

@PaulVargas I've seen some ladies speak in tongues and the pastor gave an interpretation, but I have no way of verifying if it was correct or whatnot. I remain skeptical of this stuff to this day

but I am not opposed to it by any means

I just think that much of what has happened in the charismatic movement in the 20th century till now in America is suspect. It isn't unique to Christianity, you can find the same stuff in other religions.

but that's my opinion

@Daи OK. However, I think we have the full revelation of God, the Bible. Already in itself difficult, we need no more revelations.

Hi, @JackDouglas Nice to see you! Where have you been?

@PaulVargas I'm on holiday :)

jusp popping in for a few minutes and also catching up with some urgent work: stuff always goes wrong when I'm away

I've got an unfortunate knack of breaking things as I leave...

@JackDouglas You need a backup! ;-)

@PaulVargas he's on holiday too

it's half term

we normally go away in term time but this time we've clashed

@JackDouglas Ha, ha. Oh! But you gave permission. Well, if you are the only owner and you don't have partners.

@PaulVargas he doesn't work for me, we just back each other up

I also have a guy who does work for me

but he he does first-line only

@Daи the really tricky thing with tounges too is that it isn't even well defined what it is

@AJHenderson That's just a minor implementation detail, let the engineers make something up. <sarcasm alert>

personally, I know I've always been very hesitant towards the charasmatic movement's version of tongues and my wife and I have had extended discussions on tongues in particular

personally, I see evidence for two kinds of tongues, one being the tongues spoken by the apostles at Pentecost, which did not require an interpreter and seems to be unique to that occurrence.

the other seems to be vocalization of hearts desire in a way we don't have the words for

I have no idea if that can be an actual language or if an interpreter is simply someone to speak for what the other person can't say

particularly since it isn't clear if the part about interpreters was even refering to the same tongues as spiritual language/yearning

vs being a language that isn't understood by the congregation

and since people regularly show off with the Charasmatic version of tongues, it makes me highly suspicious of anything similar sounding since clearly that is inappropriate use of it

but I also keep an open mind

just like I do on miracles. I like to say I trust that God could do anything, I just don't trust people to be honest about what God does

(or doesn't do)

@AJHenderson Does the Bible mention these two kinds of tongues? In particular, the second type. What do you think?

yes

it does

well, which two types

@AJHenderson Do you remember the passages?

the two I initially mentioned are the two I see evidence for in scripture

unfortunately I do not remember the passages off the top of my head

the former is obviously the verses dealing with pentecost

@AJHenderson very true

Hi, @Caleb I don't know your position. Are you cessationist? What do you think about it?

@PaulVargas I would argue that even the bible is only a partial revelation, not that we should look for more in charismatic experiences, but that God still reveals himself

Towards the end of 1st Corinthians is probably the bit your looking for.

@Paul That's not a simple question to answer. I disagree with many/most cessationists but it is more their reasoning than their conclusions per se that I can't buy. However I see a lot less harm in being lumped in with them than with Pentocostals with whom I disagree in both reasoning and conclusion.

@Caleb that's a good way of answering the question

@PaulVargas I am an Assemblies of God minister. I am not cessationist, but I stay away from the Charismatics. I am what is called a Classical Pentecostal.

@FrankLuke so you would not endorse the Latter Rain stuff, including the stuff stemming from the Toronto Airport Vineyard (Rodney Howard-Browne), the recent Lakeland revivals (Todd Bentley), etc.?

@JackDouglas Excuse me, but what do think you about it? Are you cessationist? Sorry! ;-)

@PaulVargas "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son"

yes and no

@Daи Not familiar with Todd Bentley except what you said above. Not endorsing Vineayrd either. Have been very wary of them for years.

And Benny Hinn. Even though most of my pastors have liked him, he always makes me uncomfortable. Add to that his very shaky hermeneutics...

@JackDouglas But perhaps you will have a little more to say to us about this.

@PaulVargas If you are interested in the topic, one of the best books I have read is "What the Bible Says about the Holy Spirit".

The author, Stanley Horton, is probably the most respected Pentecostal theologian alive.

Gordon Fee might be first, but Horton is up there.

I can't listen to it at work, but there is a discussion (not a debate) between two Pentecostal theologians whom I know and respect regarding initial evidence.

Lee will be discussing the Classical Pentecostal view with Walston presenting what he call the "Simply Pentecostal" view.

@PaulVargas Paul and the other apostles message was endorsed by the miracles that accompanied them - a form of cessationism is central to that understanding but sort of the other way round: it isn't that something has ceased so much as the reason for it has passed.

Quick overview of the Pentecostal kinds.

Ooooh. Waves.

Hey, @MarkEdward Are you cessationist? What do you think about it? ;-)

@PaulVargas Hey there. No, I'm not a cessationist. Currently I attend an Assemblies of God church, and am rather skeptical of how they do 'speaking in tongues' and such, but I am entirely open to the 'spiritual gifts'.

@FrankLuke That's helpful, thanks for sharing

I just think those 'spiritual gifts' manifest in different ways, depending on the time, place, culture, etc.

@MarkEdward Do you go to @Frank's church?

@JackDouglas Well, I don't have a pastor named Frank at my church, so sadly, no...

it was a long shot :)

@JackDouglas Is there a pastor among us?

@PaulVargas Caleb too iirc

@PaulVargas I am an associate pastor at a small church in Iowa.

@FrankLuke Huh. Well, I'm not too far from your church, then

@Frank that does sound interesting

@JackDouglas One rabbi reported multiple visions of Elijah.

let me know if you want it re-opened (though the question could use an edit too perhaps)

If I can find the stuff, I'd answer it. That's an if. Time at home just got crunched in the evening, too. We're trying to go to bed earlier.

good plan :)

Hi @ScottS I should like to know your opinion of it. Do you think the gifts of tongues, prophecy and healing ceased? What is your position?

Daniel Wallace :: What does the bible say about speaking in tongues?

This 1996 PhD thesis from King's College London might be of interest (available as PDF for download).

@PaulVargas I believe there is no distinction between baptism "by" the Spirit and "in" the Spirit (as @FrankLuke had a link that noted Pentecostal doctrine holds; that is, there is no "second blessing"). Spirit baptism is what places one into the body of Christ. @JackDouglas stated the equivalent of my position well and succinctly

@ScottS any reading recommendations for recovering Pentecostals/charismaniacs?

I appreciate Eastern Orthodoxy's ability to hold orthodoxy in balance with mysticism and experiential asceticism

but I also sometimes think my priest might be a New Ager

i.e. he spiritualizes/Christianizes stuff from guys like Tommy Rosen on occasion

at the same time, Orthodoxy's position is that as human beings created in the image of God, we can't get it wrong 100% of the time. Folks outside Christianity have truth, just not the Fullness of Truth.

@Daи I think Ken Gardoski is the most accurate I've read in defining a spiritual gift. If I think of any other recommendations, I'll let you know.

@ScottS thanks for sharing

@ScottS Oh! I will have more weapons to fight.

@PaulVargas weapons...fight? Sounds... violent ;)

@Daи I'll devour all these. A whole arsenal to fight!

@PaulVargas to fight... what?

@Daи My dear friend, I was just kidding. Do not worry. ;-)

@PaulVargas I was genuinely curious what your 'opponent' is

@Daи I prefer to avoid any theological discussion. I just have to remember Titus 3:9. Often, it is a struggle of egos.

@PaulVargas hmm, ok. Not sure what you'd call the previous discussion taking place all day about cessationism, but....

@Daи My knowledge is so poor that I could not defend any position. :-/ Really!

@PaulVargas Not asking you to. I was just asking what position you were 'fighting' against. This was your word choice. No big deal, I don't need to know

anyhoo, time for me to run

ttyl