Hub of Reason

Josiah

16:01

You want to compare regulated vs slightly less regulated, which would require ignoring other possible causes.

Borror0

@Josiah No, that's mine: you're saying that there are poor outcomes with regulations. I agree. I do not dispute that but there is no indication that the outcomes would be better in the long run.

Josiah

I'm not really going to do a full study just for the sake of this conversation.

I know what you mean, dude, I really do.

We have no good examples of alternatives, though, so like I said. It's moot.

Our differences don't stem from regulation, and I think we both understand that.

Borror0

We do? I don't.

Josiah

It's a bit deeper and about how we think governments should shepherd its lambs.

Borror0

Oh. Okay. We do agree.

Josiah

16:03

We could ramble about that or about taxes or about drugs or plenty of other things for pretty much the same reasons.

Borror0

You prioritize freedom; I prioritize human happiness. (That's how I'd put it though you might put it differently)

Josiah

Of course I would, considering I think humans are happier when they're free.

Borror0

I'm willing to bet we're in agreement w/r/t recreational drugs

Josiah

I'm down with all drugs.

Government regulation is too often used to limit freedom, when it should exist to make freedom flourish.

Drugs is a reasonable example, with a whole fuck load of terrible consequences.

Like heads displayed on bridges in mexico, and bodies missing genitals.

Then we use the fact that our drug laws have negative outcomes to hate on mexico. Gotta love americans.

@Vitaly, I would have interpreted it as her saying she had a girlfriend or had at some point been turned into a man.

Borror0

My personal path to supporting a legislation is "What is the best policy or policies, according to the available evidence, that lead to the greatest source of human happiness in the short and long term?"

Josiah

16:06

we hardly use tits to refer to anything but women.

You're assuming human happiness can be measured. I'm assuming human happiness is what people want, and with freedom they'll naturally move toward it.

I don't think happiness can be regulated and handed out, and I think giving regulators that sort of power will be abused to help cronies and contributors.

Or to shut down little girls' lemonade stands. :(

Borror0

I disagree that people know what they want. I think, in this day and age, it's hard to have enough knowledge to know what is the best available option to us. It's certainly a very time-consuming process. Imagine having to know the health impact of all the products in the ingredients list of everything you eat?

mfg

@Josiah isn't there a suffix/prefix to indicate the type of tit?

like woodtit or something?

Josiah

I would rather farm that out, but not to the government.

For the bird? I think it has a longer name.

mfg

tufted titmouse

Josiah

Not the kind of tit I want.

mfg

16:11

@Josiah indeed

Josiah

@Borror0, you are a perfect example. You don't want to know what every ingredient is, much like you want to know something won't burn your house down. You can be pretty sure something certified by UL won't burn your house down.

You don't test every electronic device you buy, it gets farmed out to a third party.

Borror0

@Josiah You see, that's the thing: I think we should regulate the regulators. We do that in Canada. If you're a policy maker, you have to disclose any cash amount or gift you receive of over $500 to Election Canada. Similarly, donations to a political party are limited to $1000 per natural person (and legal person can't donate).

Josiah

So would you prefer a product with a seal stating it's safe, from a reputable company, or one without.

They do here too.

It is still not properly followed.

Your uncle might not give you any money, but you're still likely to help him.

Borror0

It is followed here.

Josiah

Canada has no corruption?

That's a surprise.

Go back to the products, you want safe products that you don't have to be a biochemist to recognize as safe.

Right?

Borror0

16:14

@Josiah We have an ethics comity and a auditor general for that

mfg

i actually work for my locality's auditor

Borror0

@Josiah We do, but when we do it's usually revealed a few years later and result in a politician's resignation. Then we put him on a trial and he ends up paying back the tax payers and/or in jail.

mfg

its pretty well regulated here, pretty much every dollar accounted for based on a sampled basis

the most fraud comes from ineptitude

Josiah

(I wasn't specifically referring to bribes, but to favors, which can't be easily audited.)

Borror0

We have ethics for that, and usually when they are ties reports WILL talk about it

(That's big difference between Canada and the US: we have news, not propaganda)

Josiah

16:17

reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/ex4tw/…

They talk about it here, it's just not always useful.

There are plenty of places to get information.

Borror0

I meant mainstream news

Josiah

It's called entertainment here.

But at least it's entertaining.

Borror0

"Agreed. Then come to the US, and write a book about it.
Edit: On second thought, the US might not be the best place either."

@Josiah So far, the best source of mainstream news seem to be The Daily Show

Which is a really, really sad state of affairs

Josiah

I was happy when he stopped being Obama's bitch.

But I generally don't watch, because he annoys me more than anything.

Borror0

I don't think he's Obama's bitch but that there Republicans are just so much more entertaining

Josiah

16:23

He was at first, although it broke at some point.

It was probably more giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Obama seems to think it's about popularity. People would talk shit on Bush for responding slowly to things, but Obama doesn't seem to give a fuck about anything really.

mfg

no, the one i hate is keith olbermann. i may have a sympathy for his views, but hes such a demagogue. i dont think anyone else does the martyr/indignation thing as much as he does.

Josiah

I hated bush for a lot of things.

But, really, fuck Obama too.

Borror0

@Josiah Tell that guy to apply for asylum in Canada. We have very open immigration laws. Basically, our land is too big for us, we need to populate, and we're not a bunch of xenophobic rednecks.

@mfg He can't be worse than Beck

mfg

@Josiah as in you hated Bush for things, and Obama generally?

Josiah

Flagging that as offensive, you beady eyed bastard.

Borror0

16:25

lol

Josiah

@mfg, he had a lot of campaign promises that were great. Reversing a lot of terrible and terrifying things Bush and company had done.

Borror0

@Josiah I think Obama needs to show some spine

mfg

@Borror0 its not that hes better/worse, his tone is more grating. beck does the doe-eyed-wonderment stupor. that doesn't bother me as much

Josiah

Then he became president and poof

He does show spine when he's pushing through more regulation. Any other time, he just sort of dances around the world getting shit on by foreign leaders.

mfg

@Josiah im hoping he can show us the tai chi we are supposed to be believing hes doing

Josiah

16:27

He needs to shut down guantanamo and stop the federal drug prosecutions he said he would when he was running.

mfg

if he cant sell that his less is more handling of everything is working hell lose the primaries. well no he wont, democrats cant find anyone else.

Josiah

What pisses me off is it's just political posturing. He lied for votes and left people in limbo about whether they were going to prison for the rest of their lives for doing something completely legal in their state.

I think Hillary made herself look too lefty.

If she had stayed closer to Bill politically she would have had a chance.

Borror0

@Josiah I have to defend him on Guantanamo. He's really trying to close it. I'm not sure how closely you've followed the topic but he's really trying to return the citizens into their country or to give them a fair trial but he's running into a lot of problems, one being the Republican filibuster.

mfg

@Josiah true. i try not to hold that kind of stuff against a politician though, its just not realistic. theres the maxim 'campaign in poetry, govern in prose'

Josiah

@Borror0, it was supposed to be a priority. He said he had plans, then oops, maybe not.

Two years later

@mfg, I'm a grim. The bastard lied, so he's just every other shit politician now.

mfg

16:30

@Borror0 i like that they actually explored it, at all. that they brought a case to prosecution. guatanamo cannot happen until they have a chain of jurisprudence

that allows successful prosecution under guidelines for military combatants

Borror0

@Josiah I read a lot about closing Guantanamo because of Omar Khadr and the major problem that he's facing right now is that Republicans want a military trial, which basically means putting people in jail without evidence.

mfg

i think he hyped the time-line. when someone campaigns, they want everything to happen the first year, and the pol promises it. but it takes all 8 yrs just to get a 1/4 of the way down the list

Josiah

@Borror0, of course they do. But they're in jail right now without evidence.

The dumbasses let locals eliminate opposition by accusing them of being terrorists.

mfg

i dont apologize for obama though. for me, i understand the politics of every move he makes, i just dont understand the vision. what worries me is he doesn't have one to suit the situation.

Borror0

The other alternative he has is releasing them all because most of the evidence was obtained by coercion, which renders it inadmissible in a civil trial. However, think of the field trip that FOX news would have with that. It would also be an international affair mess.

Josiah

16:34

Blah blah politics.

Borror0

@mfg I don't get why he's being so spineless on things. Where's the rhetoric? I agree with you. He doesn't give the impression of having a vision.

Josiah

Why are you guys okay with treating people like cattle because it's politics?

That's pretty fucked.

Borror0

@Josiah I'm not.

Josiah

Bill O'Reilly beat Glenn Beck at crazy. Imagine that.

Borror0

I always had a better impression of O'Reilly than of Beck

But then, I don't watch Fox much

It makes me die on the inside

Josiah

16:37

I like Beck when he's not being a religious nut.

mfg

@Josiah yeah, same here. im in the 'limiting freedom for security deprives (deserves neither) us of both' camp, i just try to maintain a realistic perspective on about 98% of political issues. on matters of capital punishment and religious freedom, those are the only two i allow myself to be idealistic about. theres too much detritus to care about it all, sadly.

Josiah

He's amusing.

mfg

(by realistic I'm drawing a contrast between realism and idealism in expectations)

Josiah

@mfg, yeah. Don't get me wrong, I'm not surprised when politicians make decisions because of politics rather than ethics.

I just don't use it to excuse their behavior. I would still punch them if I could.

Borror0

@mfg I would add gay rights to that list

Josiah

16:42

Ah, that too.

mfg

@Borror0 yeah, i guess i was overly specific to religious freedom, but its because i am personally affected directly by its issues and its situations, and i have ideas on fixing it. thats why im idealistic about it, i guess, is because i have some practical path to pursue the ideal

Josiah

He was all pro gay, then all of a sudden nothing changes.

mfg

i am affected by gay rights, i agree with most situations on fixing it, but i have no ideas how to fix it except in instances where it rubs up against religious freedoms. same with gender and race equality

@Josiah "A bill to repeal DADT was passed in 2010. However, the policy remains in place until the President, the Secretary of Defense, and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff certify that repeal will not harm military readiness, followed by a 60-day waiting period"

Borror0

@mfg You show some balls and you force it down people's throat like a Republican would

Josiah

@mfg, I would have had it a higher priority.

mfg

16:45

@Borror0 thats pedantism, im referring to the nuts and bolts of laws and court cases

@Josiah well, whats the difference in it passing in 2008,09,10 if we've had a military for 230 years?

Borror0

@Josiah When you consider that he had an economic crisis on his hands, that's a reasonable time frame. The question is where the debate about same sex marriage will be by the end of his first term.

mfg

i dont mean to equivocate, but its like Boehner taking the speakership

people were all boo on dems for not being all clappy-like yesterday the way repubs were when pelosi to the speakership

but Boehner wasn't the first female speaker of the house of representatives either

ok, that Boehner part was just a tangent, but it was irritating.

@Borror0 thats why im not idealistic about gay rights; i can try to be realistic in my expectations there, but erode the foundations on the other side of that issue by being idealistic in my expectations and actions on religious separation (freedom from religion)

Borror0

Boehner is the first orangeman speaker of the house of representatives

mfg

the more opinions you have the less likely you are to be worth listening to.

Borror0

@mfg ???

mfg

16:51

@Borror0 hes so radio active

@Borror0 look at beck and olberman both, they have to espouse opinions on everything right?

Borror0

Oh. I get what you mean now

mfg

so they boil down their opinion on one thing, ie taxes, whatever, and spread the rationale over everything else (please hold the cognitive dissonance, i have no motivation to append nuances to niche issues)

Borror0

Let me recommend you a Canadian opinion journalist named Dan Gardner. He's like my favorite person to read. He just wrote a book on why you should listen to people who are confident. He's freaking awesome.

fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/10/07/…

That's a good example of his style

Josiah

@Borror0, he ignored the economy to push through healthcare and other bullshit. I have no sympathy for him.

@mfg, as it turns out I will live for less than a hundred, so the two or three years seems more important to me.

@mfg, first electoral vote for a female went to a Libertarian =D

Borror0

Here's his most recent, which is interesting w/r/t this chat room because it's about religion: ottawacitizen.com/opinion/great+Islamist+menace/4058778/…

mfg

17:02

@Josiah yeah, but the concept of openly gay soldiers serving in the military was addressed, covered up with DADT like some shame, and repealed in my lifetime. its like brown v. board of education. the 2, 3 years may seem significant now, but its the sea change that truly matters. DADT's repeal will extend beyond the scope of the military now.

common legal boilerplate:

Josiah

It was a criticism of Obama, not a view of the policy historically.

mfg

[Group] shall not discriminate against any employee or applicant for employment because of race, color, religion, sex, age, handicap, or national origin. The [Group] will take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed and that employees are treated during employment without regard to their race, color, religion, sex, age, handicap, or national origin.

Such action shall include, but not be limited to employment upgrading, promotion, demotion, termination, rates of pay, or other forms of compensation, and selection for training

soon that will include sexuality.

@Josiah thats powerful, and you need to deliberately line things up. if he is anything, obama is at least deliberate.

Josiah

The last bit is unimportant to me.

mfg

i just mean laws are like dominos, if you set them up correctly they all fall down, if not, you lose momentum

Borror0

I feel I poorly timed my recommended reading :P

mfg

17:12

whys that? did that question get closed right after?

Borror0

I linked to two articles above that I thought were good reads and it went totally ignored because you were absorbed in the conversation., is what I meant

mfg

oh sorry. i can get self-absorbed. i like the wall of text when its mine.

Josiah

I read the first one. I'm just at work so I read slightly slowly.

I only like it because it's then all blue.

mfg

ditto. me talking more is soothing to my eyes. they should do something about the white background

Borror0

@mfg Normally I'm not that insistent about links but Dan Gardner is, IMO, a must-read.

mfg

17:16

ok, will read then

Josiah

yay numbers. You dirty leftists commit ten times the terrorist attacks as the right.

mfg

where can i get my user invite/recruit for this site?

Borror0

@mfg what do you mean?

mfg

isn't there a way to get a badge for referring a bunch of ppl to a site, or is that just for area51 to props?

oh yeah i guess so

badge on area 51, nothing here

ha @ "Mark Steyn has a new book in the works, apparently. Something to do with the end of civilization. Given his track record, this is grounds for optimism."

Vitaly

can't you override the CSS in your browser?

Borror0

17:23

Isn't that what greasemonkey is for? @Ustice

Josiah

Did ustice say something?

Borror0

@mfg His New Year column was awesome in similar regards: ottawacitizen.com/opinion/Ghosts+predictions+past/4041398/…

mfg

@Josiah 2h ago

Borror0

@Josiah Ustice and I are friends from outside of ASE. I know he could answer that question, so I tagged him.

Josiah

ah

mfg

17:28

can anybody recommend a portable, key bindings program?

Vitaly

17:40

@Borror0 like this? I am not sure what you're talkiing about.

Josiah

lol vit

Vitaly

@Josiah ?

Josiah

the blue.

Vitaly

You only have to add a custom CSS stylesheet in your browser. I use Opera, and it's easy here, but quick googling tells that it's possible in FireFox and Chrome, too.
.messages{background-color:#deedff !important;}

and .mine.messages for your own messages.

Josiah

it's pretty easy in chrome

the built in DOM browser is really fucking nice

Vitaly

18:01

the Stylebot extension for Chrome does the trick even more easily

Borror0

18:16

@Vitaly Ya. That's the kind of stuff I was talking about.

Vitaly

addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/2108 then

the extension's website has some neat help files as well

Borror0

Yeah. That's the one I was thinking about

I confused it with Greasemonkey addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/748 which is for JavaScript

mfg

awwww, the mythology prop on area 51 has two fewer followers than christianity

2

Borror0

lol

mfg

ha, and the only search result for christ that turns up a beta (public or otherwise) is atheism

Josiah

18:24

@Borror0, you can use the js to modify the dom, though, so you weren't completely off.

just more roundabout way to do it

I wonder if the chat attracts geeks, or if this many atheists really are just geeks

Borror0

Atheists are disproportionately geeky and then you have to add another layer: StackExchange was built around StackOverflow so the original userbase was extremely geeky. The geek quotient of StackExchange must be disproportionate to the average Internet population.

Josiah

It's more fun to think that atheists are just much much more geeky @Borror0. Wet blanket, you canadians.

Borror0

18:41

I prefer to think of myself as a human concern with factual accuracy

But wet blanket will do

Hi @instanceofTom

Ustice

@Borror0 @Vitaly Yes. You can use Greasemonkey to override CSS, but for Firefox, I would suggest Stylish.

Josiah

cloning made easy: Tom newinstanceofTom = new Tom();

Actually, I should probably use a deep copy method or something

Tom.Clone(), maybe

Ustice

There is also a version of Stylish for Chrome.

Borror0

18:54

@mfg did our conversation on politics get you to follow the politics.SE? hehe

@mfg Don't forget to vote for on-topic/off-topic questions

mfg

i was looking at the non-religious theist question, curious if it's on topic, as it seems asking an atheist might yield better results than asking an atheist. though i think theres a point to be made about the term theist...

0

A: Are there theists that aren't religious?

The term "theist" is typically used in contraposition to atheism. In and of itself, it bears less meaning than other categories like Deism/Deist. Although this site typically uses theist, its usage is frequently in the form of ~[atheist] ("not atheist"). It is functional in this context, but the ...

it seems theist is taking on a life of its own as a contraposition to atheism, but aside from that its a vague shadowy term that has no real meaning

@Borror0 ha, not really, sort of; i signed up for area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/5477/us-politics in october

hadn't seen this one though

Borror0

I think politics makes more sense than division by country, IMO

Josiah

There are some annoyances people will face.

In Europe I'm a liberal, here I'm a libertarian.

Borror0

In Canada, you're weird :)

Josiah

although anymore we've been sort of pigeon holed as conservatives

Borror0

19:00

I think the major problem is that left and right have drastic different meanings

Josiah

Yeah, and right has been turned into conservative.

Borror0

The Democrats are more right-wing than the center-right Québec Liberal Party

Josiah

We should chart it out. Pick a reasonable 'center' and put parties on a left right scale for different countries

Borror0

Left/right is based upon where the center is in that country

Josiah

showing how one left is someone else's right

mfg

19:09

. L<-----------------------U.S.-------------------------->R
L<------------------------CAN------------------------->R

oh, it pooped out my spaces

. _______________. L<-----------------------U.S.-------------------------->R
L<------------------------CAN------------------------->R

anyway, for anybody feeling twitchy for excel today

Political spectrum

A political spectrum is a way of modeling different political positions by placing them upon one or more geometric axes symbolizing independent political dimensions. Most long-standing spectra include a right wing and left wing, which originally referred to seating arrangements in the 18th century French parliament. According to the simplest left-right axis, communism and socialism are usually regarded internationally as being on the left, opposite fascism and conservatism on the right. Liberalism can mean different things in different contexts, sometimes on the left, sometimes on the r...

Borror0

It's more:
Crazy<------------------------------------L<-----------------------U.S.-------------------------->R -->Crazy
Crazy<---------L------------------------CAN------------------------->R-------------------------------> Crazy

I disagree with the CPC, and I think they make mistakes soemtimes, but I don't think they're insane. The Republican Party, however, I believe that they have absolutely no grasp on reality

@mfg I don't get why they don't merge politics and World politics. They're too similar.

Josiah

@Borror0, it's wrong to paint them all that way. Some are just there because it's the only way they can get elected.

Borror0

I said the Republican Party, not the Republicans.

I'm talking about the party line, the influential members if you prefer.

Josiah

Fair enough.

mfg

@Borror0 well, i think there should be minor populations (ie. since 30% of SE traffic is US, a US Politics would make sense, but any other where "too localized" would come up but a big enough number would find it interesting). there should be a major population; global politics.

Borror0

19:20

I have a lot of respect for Ron Paul. I completely disagree with a lot of things he says - though he makes a lot of valid points too - but he's not crazy. He knows what he wants.

Josiah

At least they marginalized McCain finally.

mfg

oh, the difference is your punctuation; Republican refers to a member of the party, republican refers to someone who believes in that model of governance

ie a Democrat vs a democrat

instanceofTom

@Josiah haha just saw what you said earlier ^^

mfg

@Borror0 thats the diff b/w

@Borror0 ron paul IS love

Borror0

@mfg I'm not sure why you say that, though I agree

mfg

19:24

when youre in love with ron paul, you dont need to know why

Borror0

@mfg I guess my point is that a large politics site is preferable, for the same reason StackOverflow works.

Josiah

I think it's the definition of argumentative and subjective.

mfg

true, but i think US Politics will be the serverfault of stackoverflow

Josiah

For a moment, consider the concept of subgroups of experts forming around tags.

Consider the tags on a politics site, now consider the 'experts' that would form there.

Borror0

@mfg ...and I think it's be the C#

mfg

19:26

i like that idea; but it only works with high volume sites

and the problem with language cross over, in an area where people are already prone to calling each morans anyway

Borror0

@Josiah Exactly. On StackOverflow, people focus on questions that are their forte. You would say that happening there too, IMO. Plus, when there are international questions, you would have a larger pool contributing.

mfg

@Josiah tags works really well on superuser for me, on cooking for me; on most others though its spotty

Borror0

That's because not all sites lend itself well to tags

mfg

@Borror0 i do like the idea, and when warcraft split from gaming it died on its own

Borror0

I doubt you would disgree that politics would be very easy to tag

Josiah

19:28

It would be interesting to see.

I just see a lot of up/down vote circle jerks and offensive flags.

CesarGon

Well, I think that atheism is not a field of knowledge, and as such, it doesn't lend itself to tags, and doesn't generate loads of questions, etc.

mfg

in the end Global Politics sounds wrong, maybe Political Science would be better; than it would have a scholarly angle,less than a sounding board

Josiah

Plus, how do you pick moderators? That will be a bloody nightmare!

mfg

@CesarGon atheism is a field of discourse however, the knowledge is typically of that discourse

Borror0

It would need heavy moderation, that is for sure

Josiah

19:29

And the moderators would have to be very very carefully chosen.

CesarGon

@mfg Not sure; history of atheism, or philosophy of atheism may be. But not atheism per se.

Borror0

@Josiah You pick users who obviously contribute by having high quality factual answers

mfg

@Josiah i would have to vote for....

Josiah

@Borror0, yes I do. The kinds of people that would be drawn there, though, might not.

@mfg, I have no sane response to that.

Borror0

@Josiah That's why there is such a thing as private beta

mfg

19:31

@CesarGon you might like to give this paper a read to understand the shared genes between religions and atheism, it might change your mind

law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/hrj/iss16/gunn.pdf

CesarGon

I have read it already. :-)

Borror0

@Josiah @mfg Really? I do. I pick

mfg

ive been read it twice in the past few days, i really like it, its brief and written from a practical application based point of view

Borror0

CesarGon

Besides, I think religions aren't fields of knowledge either.

History of religions are

mfg

19:32

@Borror0 i choose you pikachu

Borror0

Josiah

mudkips

mfg

global politicks kitty says no to Kyoto protocol, says yes to drilling for whales

Borror0

This chat room is going south soon FTW

mfg

in matters of global sexy...

i appoint 70s hairman, mod protem

ok, i cease my recess appointments to the bench of moderators

Borror0

19:36

Jean Chértien would make a fine moderator with his Shawinigan handshake

Though, bizarrely, I can't find a good picture of it :(

mfg

you mean this?

i dont wanna wrangle with that mod

he looks pissed

actually, i might have to change my avatar

Borror0

Ya. He's one of our most well liked former Prime Minister (second place after Pierre Elliot Trudeau, according to a recent poll)

Stayed in power for about 10 years as a PM

His first victory was so overwhelming that his main opponent didn't even win her own seat!

mfg

how's your voting work? is the PM appointed by parliament or elected by popular vote?

@Borror0 sorry my us civics gets dusty, let alone my canadian

Borror0

The territory is divided in seats. You vote for the politician you want to represent your riding in the parliament. The political party with the most seats gets to be the ruling party and the PM is the leader of the ruling party.

mfg

@Borror0 so who did the PM compete against?

(another member of the parliament?)

Borror0

19:49

In the case of a minority government - a gov't where the ruling part does not have 50% of the seats - it's possible that the other political party form a coalition and become the "ruling party" though

@mfg I don't understand the question

mfg

@Borror0 nvm ill look it up

Borror0

The guy caught in the "handshake"? Bill Clennet

He was a protester

►

Josiah

who wants to be terribly sad?

gizmodo.com/5726667/the-agonizing-last-words-of-bill-zeller

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