EL&U 2014 Election

Mari-Lou A

19:00

And this is a native speaker, learned too. A new user too. But, hey a sequence of anonymous downvotes is healthy for the site, to be encouraged. There aren't enough downvotes, why are people so stingy? A bad answer, a pompous arrogant answer, let's just ram it down his throat, how dare he.

Non native speakers whose English is at times incomprehensible shouldn't participate, and neither should literate speakers it seems. . I don't want to chat anymore. Not with anyone. My first two choices have remained unchanged ever since the election started, but I've changed my 3rd candidate at least twice. ack. In general I'm disappointed by everyone's reactions.

medica

@Mari-LouA - I know you're gone, but I was advocating the use of down votes for people who are clearly wrong in RyeBread's question. Style is not the same as wrong.

medica

19:21

@Mari-LouA I also think we should be liberal with our up votes. I sometimes wonder if people don't upvote because they don't want to fall behind in the rep game. @KitFox said in chat, I think, that she was concerned at the lack of Sportsmanship badges in the candidates, a silver badge for "Up voted 100 answers on questions where an answer of yours has a positive score"

- only 31 that have been given. Look at the list (you and I both have it) - I think it will come as a pleasant surprise to you to see who has earned them. I think this shows a mindset of up voting because up votes are good for the site and less a competitive mindset to up voting. It's not a perfect system, but down votes are part of it.

MrHen

@medica The primary reason I don't have one yet is because I'm not in the habit of answering questions that already have a suitable answer. I spend most of my time in the Unanswered queue.

medica

19:34

@MrHen I wasn't trying to single out anyone. We have answered roughly the same number of questions., and have roughly the same number of down votes. But the numbers do show I've handed out about 700 more up votes. It's not critical. It just might indicate that some people up vote more than others. If I tell everyone, up vote as a part of my platform, than I should be able show that I believe it enough to have done it.

I'm not sure that that has been as strong a part of your platform, which is fine. I think your platform over all is more balanced and rounded out than mine - something that occurs with thoughtful analysis and experience. This is just a small thing I'm talking about.

MrHen

@Mari-LouA "I don't want to chat anymore. Not with anyone." Fair enough. The offer still stands, though (even after the election ends). It's totally up to you.

@medica I didn't feel that you were. I was just adding a little context. :)

medica

@MrHen Fair enough. And I wanted to emphasize again how thoughtful you have been in presenting a well-rounded and grounded platform. I do hope you are one of our new mods.

@MrHen But don't forget to encourage up voting when you get there! ')

MrHen

@medica Thanks for the encouragement. :) I'm not sure how much the voters are really taking candidate responses to questions into account. I suspect most people made their decision back when the candidates were nominated. :P

@medica Oh, absolutely!

medica

@MrHen Interesting that you say that. I was looking at the caucus badges and when they were handed out. a very large number were handed out within the first two days.

@MrHen However, we are allowed to change our minds. That gives me hope that people have been paying attention to our words.

MrHen

@medica That's true. And Mari-LouA noted that her third vote has changed a few times.

I think that third vote will be where the interesting things happen.

medica

19:41

yep.

I'm holding my breath.

The turnout has been really impressive!

phenry

We're up past 600 votes now.

medica

Impressive, isn't it?

Alraxite

How much time is left before the voting period's up?

Matt Эллен

22 hrs 15 minutes

medica

about 4 hours.

@MattЭллен you're a day behind?

Mine says 8 pm tonight in my time.

Alraxite

19:46

I'm still unsure who to vote for. Not that it's going to make a difference.

medica

It's almost 4 pm now.

Alraxite

As a matter of fact, that applies to everyone.

Matt Эллен

it ends at 2014-06-24 20:00:00Z

medica

@Alraxite every vote counts!

user61230

[pops in] @Alraxite Voting always makes a difference [pops out]

Matt Эллен

19:46

@medica 8pm UTC tomorrow

medica

let me check...

Matt Эллен

yeah, in a voter pool as small as this each voter has an effect

medica

@MattЭллен Damn, you're right!

:(

Matt Эллен

:D

medica

:(

Alraxite

19:48

@MattЭллен Z=UTC?

MrHen

Especially with STV scoring. It will matter quite a bit. I think the third moderator will be a very close race.

Matt Эллен

@Alraxite yeah, zulu time

Alraxite

Okay

medica

@Alraxite I agree. the way the votes are counted makes sure every vote counts a lot

It's a complicated, weighted vote system.

phenry

Wait, so it should be 24 hours from now, not 22 hours from now.

(24 hours and 12 minutes, whatever)

medica

19:50

28 hours!

Matt Эллен

@phenry oh, damn, yeah, I got my daylight savings mixed up

medica

I need more wine!

phenry

don't we all.

Shog9

@KitFox @MrHen send me your address (or just reply to the email you got way back when).

phenry

I think when there's less than a day left it will start counting down the number of hours.

medica

19:52

I started counting them down today! :-0

MrHen

@Shog9 How do I get your email?

medica

Oh, well. I just hope people are still trying to make up their minds, and that all this chatting and elaborating on our views actually counts for something.

Alraxite

@medica That's very unlikely given the number of members from the community who have actually popped in here.

Shog9

@MrHen it's on my profile

MrHen

@Shog9 Excellent, thanks.

Alraxite

19:56

Majority of those members are the candidates themselves.

medica

@Alraxite While I agree with you in part, I'm also glad to see that a significant number (far from 600, though) have come by, multiple times.

MrHen

@Alraxite The candidates get to vote too :)

phenry

It's possible that people have been checking the transcripts.

medica

@phenry good thought!

Alraxite

@phenry Yeah, the succinct and the to-the-point transcript.

2

I sure enjoyed not reading it.

medica

19:58

lol, not my fault!

Shog9

@medica it counts for this: the candidates and anyone else who drops in realize that they can and should be willing to discuss the moderation of the site with others. Regardless of who gets elected, they're elected to represent the rest of y'all - and they'll be able to do so informed.

phenry

I've participated in elections for other SE sites where I didn't really know the candidates very well ahead of time, and it can be pretty bewildering.

Mitch

@Mari-LouA Answers on the low-quality queue are put there automatically based on length and content (I don't know how to quantify the latter).

medica

@Shog9 I'm grateful for that. Really I am. I'm grateful for everyone who read and/or participated in the election chat. I only wish (as so very many caucus badges were handed out the first and second day) that everyone could have been active, in questions.

Mitch

@Alraxite Vote for those who will make the better moderator, will deal with flags fairly and will help reduce drama.

medica

20:02

But I've said it before: The turnout means we will be getting the moderators chosen by the community. That's a major win.

Mitch

And won't flag me for not using the Oxford comma.

Matt Эллен

I'll let you off. this time

MrHen

@Mitch That's like, actually my platform. :/

Mitch

@medica Oh. Then most of this whole conversation will be missed by them. I haven't seen 400 people join. There are ways to read the transcript without visiting chat, but the way to figure that out usually takes visiting chat for real.

@MattЭллен and give second chances.

medica

@Mitch Yes, that's what we were saying.

Mitch

20:04

out of the kindness of their hearts.

Matt Эллен

@Mitch I eat seconds, I don't take chances

Shog9

@medica we've debated before the idea of having a gap between nominations and voting, wherein folks would just discuss the issues and candidates. But frankly, it's hard enough to get sufficient participation - dragging this on longer is likely to just reduce the number of people who vote at all.

Mitch

@medica and are lenient with people coming in late to conversations repeating what everybody already just said a hundred times.

Matt Эллен

Except when I do take chances. There's always a chance of that.

Mitch

@Shog9 and increase the pain.

medica

20:06

@Shog9 and @Mitch - fair enough.

MrHen

@Shog9 You can lead a horse to water yada yada

Mitch

@MattЭллен You should take that.

phenry

@Shog9 - And people can change their votes after casting them, after all.

Mitch

@MattЭллен mmm... seconds.

@medica so then (without looking at the transcript like I usually do and commenting on absolutely anything I can misrepresent), you've all realized that people will vote as a popularity contest based on how much they like your main site answers?

medica

@Mitch I hope that's not true.

@Mitch I hope I'll win based on my friendly welcomes to new comers, the work that I've done, and how dedicated I've been to this site.

phenry

20:09

Greetings @YoichiOishi

Andrew Leach

@Mitch Yup. Although (having had this page open for a lot of the day) there have been a number of people who have popped in without commenting.

medica

@AndrewLeach even in the middle of the night.

phenry

@Mitch - You assume the bulk of the voters are familiar with the personalities involved. I'm sure we all like to think we stick out in people's minds, but that's not necessarily true.

Yoichi Oishi

I have a question from the view of minority. Why the answer is valued twice as much as the question. What is the numerical base of 2 to one rule? I’m not saying the stand of teachers and students should be the same.

But don’t you think it’s more logical to assume that a good answer come from a good question more than bad (though I hate to use this word) question? So good answer and good question are interrelated. What is the exact numerical base of 2 to answerer 1 to asker reputation score allotment? Is there any scientific base? Was it just a discretionary rule set out at the beginning of the site? Can anyone of Mods explain to me?

Seth

Basically you are asking why answers get 10 reputation and questions 5 per upvote?

MrHen

20:11

@YoichiOishi I've always assumed it was because it is harder to create an excellent answer than it is to create an excellent question.

Yoichi Oishi

yes.

MrHen

Namely, that is true on StackOverflow which is where stuff originated.

phenry

@YoichiOishi - In the very early days of the network, questions and answers were both worth 10 points per upvote. This was changed because it was believed to be slanted in favor of questions at the expense of answers.

Andrew Leach

Interesting point. Perhaps although questions are the seed, it is the answers which bring the greater contribution to the community's corpus of knowledge.

Seth

I would assume it was because questions aren't much work, answers are.

@AndrewLeach Exactly.

Alraxite

20:13

Hello @oerkelens.

Andrew Leach

@Seth Well, at least, that's the aim ;-)

Matt Эллен

I think that coming up with a crappy question is easy, so making it harder to get reps for questions than for answers makes sense, to encourage people to go the extra mile before asking (obviously only applies to folks who stick around after their first question)

medica

@MattЭллен Coming up with a crappy answer isn't hard either.

@AndrewLeach But I agree with you.

Matt Эллен

true, but getting votes on a crappy answer is harder because better answers rise up and crappy answers sink

with the notable exception of many SWRs

medica

@MattЭллен ummmm... have you looked at our leaderboard lately?

Did you see the point @RyeBread was making?

Mitch

20:17

@phenry I assume they're more familiar with answers/questions by those people than by the chat comments by those people. that is however little they may know of you on the main site, I expect they'll know even less about chat.

Matt Эллен

@medica I already pointed out the issue with SWRs

Mitch

@medica link please.

Yoichi Oishi

Why is the anser is 200% aluable than quesion just by giving oneline answer, or suggesting a single word? I'm asking its figurative or accademic base for 2:1 rule, not 1.5:1, 3:1. Is it just dgemental decision?

Matt Эллен

@YoichiOishi I don't know how the SE team came up with it. I'll look up the blog post where they announced it though...

phenry

@Mitch - Oh yes, that's certainly true. I assume that most people vote based on our opening statements and questionnaire answers (although I note with interest that we currently have more voters than the questionnaire has views).

medica

20:19

english.stackexchange.com/users?tab=Reputation&filter=week

Mitch

@YoichiOishi The value was chosen arbitrarily (I am guessing by TPTB) because (I'm guessing if the value was 10, 5 seems to be OK but 7 or 3 is just weird.

medica

begging @phenry's pardon.

phenry

eh?

medica

@phenry very interesting...

Andrew Leach

@phenry Which presumably means that votes are based on the nomination statements. Twas ever thus, I think.

MrHen

20:21

@Mitch "TPTB" means "The Powers That Be" which means the admins of the site.

medica

@phenry you're on the leaderboard this week.

MrHen

For those that may not know that acronym.

phenry

@medica - ah, so I am. That's probably some sort of mistake.

medica

@phenry :D

Shog9

@YoichiOishi See these two posts, which describe the reasoning:

Blog - Stack Exchange: Important Reputation Rule Changes

Jeff Atwood on March 19, 2010

In the next few days, we will be rolling out two important changes to the way reputation works on Stack Overflow, Server Fault, Super User, and Meta. We’re letting you know now so you can be prepared.

Item the first: question upvotes will now grant only +5 rep instead of +10.* There is no change to answer upvotes. This will apply retroactively to all users.

Why?

While we value good questions (and asking a great question is absolutely an art), we want to explicitly encourage people to provide the best possible answers. Without people interested in providing good answers, the questions are mo …

Mitch

20:22

@medica so there's been a long history of hating SWR's because many of them are idiotic (and as tchrist has noted very recently, just plain mean). Are you saying RyeBread thinks they're OK? I think the idea of SWRs is fantastic (because I like answering them), but in reality few of them are really interesting and most are crap.

Shog9

Blog - Stack Exchange: Optimizing For Pearls, Not Sand

Jeff Atwood on June 13, 2011

In March 2010, we rebalanced our reputation system to favor answers.

While we value good questions (and asking a great question is absolutely an art), we want to explicitly encourage people to provide the best possible answers. Without people interested in providing good answers, the questions are moot. We know that answers have more intrinsic value than questions, and the reputation balance should reflect that.

The question asker already enjoys a substantial benefit beyond reputation gain from upvotes on their question — namely, they get great answers to their question! Thus, the asker shouldn’t need as much reputation gain. …

Mitch

@MrHen Thank you.

medica

@Mitch Are you serious? How would you get that idea?

tchrist

@phenry Remember that view counts are flimsical.

Matt Эллен

thanks @shog!

Alraxite

20:26

@tchrist In what sense?

medica

@Mitch @RyeBread has never said that he likes SWR. He has said that we've run into a spate of bad answers. That is what he was addressing.

Mitch

@medica which idea? about RyeBread? I don't know. can you confirm or disconfirm it? I'm just asking not accusing.

@medica OK.

phenry

@tchrist - flimsical? Been shopping in the single-word-requests aisle, have we?

tchrist

@Alraxite It represents neither the number of views nor viewers.

Mitch

@medica I wasn't reading between the lines.

medica

20:27

Ah..

Mitch

@phenry He found it while cleaning up there.

Alraxite

@tchrist Why so?

medica

@Mitch I agree with him.

Alraxite

There's probably a Meta question about that then.

phenry

@tchrist - I think I've tested this: when I view a question and then hit Refresh 4 times, the view count goes up by 5.

tchrist

20:28

@phenry That’s @Shog9's personal aisle; wouldn’t wanna step any toes there.

@phenry sighs

It’s not that simple.

Mitch

@medica Then I think you agree with the majority of meta-responders and mods that SWRs are like co-flies (are usually bad and attract crap)

phenry

@tchrist ...actually, you're right; I just tried it and it didn't work. I must have hallucinated that.

Mitch

@tchrist it's not by IP addr?

tchrist

There is an N-minute LRU cache of addresses. It will not count as a separate view until it disappears from that cache.

medica

@Mitch yes, I do. I made a rather strangely titled post to that effect in meta, if you reacall:

31

Q: Word for disrespecting eldest half-sister by referring to her husband as girly-girl-manly-boy though he's amused but the rest of the family isn't?

Are these single word requests getting out of hand, or am I just still too new to this site to recognize a long-standing problem and standard ways of dealing with them? I thought that by using generally accepted words for heinous crimes, the OP would get the idea that common and well-known word...

tchrist

20:31

Originally, N was set to 10 if I recall correctly, but they no longer publish the number nor the algorithm, doubtless for fear of people thereby gaming the system.

phenry

@tchrist - Okay, so a view indicates one or more views by a single user during a generously-defined "session". That still suggests that not many more (and probably significantly less) than 514 distinct warm bodies have ever viewed the questionnaire question.

medica

@AndrewLeach - may I ask you a question?

Alraxite

@medica you just did. How impolite.

medica

(1 of three...'))

tchrist

@phenry Yes, that’s my take on it, too. So say you look at it once per minute all day; you’ll find that view_count++, not view_count += 1440. But say you look at it once per day for five days and you discover that in this circumstance, view_count += 5. This hardly represents five more distinct viewers than before you started your game.

Yoichi Oishi

20:36

MrHen. It's not always true. When I post a question, I use to make homework as much as possible beforehand. I consult dictionaries, Google and Google Niewers and I post only when there is no clue. Against this I have received so many sloppy answers still getting 1 - 2 votes at the twice value of myquestion. I don't deny that answer is generally more valuable than question, but why it is twice more worthy than the question which pumped the answer.

The answer exists only because question exists. In other word, the question is bread and butter for answer. I think asker /answerer relationship should be equally win-win relationship, not winner and needy relationship.

tchrist

@YoichiOishi I have seldom seen questions so well-researched as yours. I consider yours to be the Gold Standard in this.

skullpatrol

I agree^

Andrew Leach

@medica You can ask...

medica

@AndrewLeach I've created a room. It's about another site in SE. I've asked my question there. OK?

Shog9

@YoichiOishi this highlights a problem that is near-endemic on EL&U: while many of these questions should be interpreted as, "what is a good solution to this problem that arose in my use of the language" they often are interpreted as "what's your personal favorite word in this category?" - by both answerers and voters.

I've seen folks collect a ridiculous number of votes for terms they made up - that is very unlikely to be helpful to future readers with an actual problem to solve, but they tickled the fancy of folks browsing the site now so they got the votes.

Andrew Leach

20:40

@medica Yes, but you probably need to invite me. I don't know how to find it otherwise.

medica

Click "chat" but don't enter it. You'll see a room with your name on it.

Shog9

Wonder if folks would go for a separate "Crossword puzzles and word requests" site...

MrHen

@YoichiOishi I completely agree that it isn't always true. I've also noticed that your question quality is significantly higher than average which I greatly appreciate.

@YoichiOishi I don't inherently disagree. My guess was a guess. Shog9 later posted more detailed information about why the numbers are what they are.

@Shog9 Hm, that could be fun. I'm not sure it would be a good fit for StackExchange but a similar site focused on creating and answering crossword puzzles is an intriguing idea. Ponders. That would be a fun project to work on, actually.

Shog9

@MrHen we do have a site where crosswords are nominally on-topic, but folks haven't really taken to it yet.

MrHen

@Shog9 Whoa, didn't know that existed. I'll go poke around. Thanks!

medica

20:52

@Shog9 It's hard to compete with the better crossword sites out there, I'd think.

KitFox

@Shog9 Thanks, man. I knew I could count on you.

Shog9

To hate on crosswords? Yes, count on me every time.

KitFox

@Shog9 Oh. My. God. New SWR target for migration.

Yesssss!

Alraxite

Are the main stackexchange sites down for anyone else?

Andrew Leach

@KitFox It seems to have brought the site down.

Matt Эллен

20:54

@KitFox Oh come on. Mr Hen I can forgive, but I posted that weeks ago!

KitFox

What? Really?

I'm so sorry. Stick your tongue out again. I'll make it up to you.

Matt Эллен

hmmmm

thinks better of it

KitFox

puts scissors back in drawer

Fine. Be that way.

medica

@Alraxite yes

Alraxite

Yay!

Glad it's not just me.

Matt Эллен

20:59

in English Language & Usage, Jun 1 at 15:00, by Matt Эллен

@KitFox your pleas have been answered

I even pung you!

KitFox

Oh.

Oh!

I thought you were talking about you.

Matt Эллен

lol

KitFox

Mwahahaha.

I sort of remember it now, but I never checked the context on account of it being the day after that huge awesome party.

Matt Эллен

I'm only messing.

KitFox

I'm strutting around my kitchen anyway, full of beans and bluster.

Wait. This is the election chat, innit?

Andrew Leach

21:02

Yes. Bits of it may need migrating.

Matt Эллен

yeah :D I think we've derailed it a little. sorry

medica

I can't open a single site on SE. Are we all in the same boat?

Matt Эллен

yes, it seems so

Andrew Leach

Yes. Everyone. It's been mentioned on Chat.C.SE too.

tchrist

@medica That question cannot be definitively answered.

Matt Эллен

21:03

A routing issue just appeared affecting all our network connectivity, we are working on it now.

Tweeted by StackStatus on June 23, 2014 at 8:55 PM

tchrist

But we have no counterexamples.

KitFox

What are we going to do!?!?!?!!

medica

We are in a little lifeboat, drifting at sea....

Andrew Leach

Chat. Except that I'm going to go to bed.

Matt Эллен

people are missing out on their chance to vote for me!!

medica

21:04

lol

tchrist

“A routing issue”?

KitFox

OK, nobody panic. We'll just draw straws to see who we eat first.

tchrist

Now what the heck does that mean?

medica

sharks!

KitFox

Excellent. We'll eat Andrew first.

tchrist

21:04

This all comes from trying to traceroute 216.81.59.173 I will bet you.

Andrew Leach

Oh.

KitFox

@tchrist Someone did a hard reset on the wireless router.

Andrew Leach

That big red button labelled "Do NOT press this".

phenry

We are bringing the major sites up in Oregon now.

Tweeted by StackStatus on June 23, 2014 at 8:57 PM

That was 8 minutes ago. Apparently WE'RE not MAJOR enough for OREGON.

medica

gosh!

KitFox

21:07

I'm going to try fording the river.

tchrist

That or we’re an Oregoner.

phenry

just in case, everyone prepare to make your answers more... Oregon-like.

ample use of the word "sustainable" is encouraged.

medica

@KitFox get us some help!

KitFox

Can't. Whole crew died of cholera. We'll have to start over.

tchrist

@medica SE exaudi orationem meam et clamor meus ad te venia

medica

21:10

So late in the season?

KitFox

@tchrist Excellent invocation. Thank you.

medica

I loved playing Oregon Trail with the kids.

My youngest was only interested in shooting game however, and only with a pistol. So you can imagine he died often.

KitFox

21:26

That's disturbing.

medica

What's perhaps more disturbing is that I couldn't reason with him. I just couldn't make him see the value in rifles, supplies, medicines, etc. :) Now he's a second-year med student. I think he's got it under control. ')

phenry

We lost multiple internet providers simultaneously, we are working on getting Oregon stable as quickly as we can.

Tweeted by StackStatus on June 23, 2014 at 9:27 PM

KitFox

Great. Good for Oregon.

phenry

At least those of us who lose this election will be able to tie it up in court for years over the voting irregularities.

oh hey, we're back in business.

KitFox

Woo! Let's go post questions!

takes midnight train going anywhere

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