EL&U 2014 Election

Mari-Lou A

04:32

@KitFox only seven candidates out of nine answered the community's questionnaire, and only six regularly turn up to answer questions in the Chat election room. @Yoichi Oishi has answered in chat several times although he never completed the questionnaire.

As a result, I am changing my third vote to a candidate who made the effort to be present, answered questions and who, in the end, does care about the community. I don't want to waste any vote on a reluctant candidate, as seems to be the case with the three "absentee" candidates.

@KitFox It concerns me that the other three candidates who I have great respect for, have done so little in the last week to participate in this forum. I suspect they have pulled out of the race but without leaving any formal notification. In the event that one of these candidates does get elected, which is a possibility judging by the high turn out, what happens if he turns round and says: I don't want the job?

medica

06:27

@AndrewLeach, @MrHen, @Matt Эллен, @Manhax, @Yoichi Oichi, @phenry, @oerkelens, @Fractured Retina, @medica: user @RyeɃreḁd asks: I think the the biggest issue with the site is the users answering questions. Some users (obviously not native speakers) provide low quality answers, yet rise in the leaderboard by answering voluminously, seemingly with reverse dictionaries.

My question is what do the candidates think about these users? What can we do about this situation? These "authoritative appearing answers" detract from the site and discourage better answers. I can downvote these answers; I can upvote the good buried underneath. But that doesn't make up for the up votes for the wrong answer. What do you propose? (taken from meta)

Andrew Leach

06:44

I would first ask "Why is this a question of moderation?" Surely if this is a problem then it is a problem which every member of the site should be asked to help address. I would not be averse to seeing a downvote with a comment along the lines of "This is completely wrong," but I would certainly expect to see a good-quality answer added, preferably including documented sources, to demonstrate what is right.

As far as moderators go, they can lead by example, but then any user who cares about what is right can do this (well, very "young" users can't comment or downvote).

I don't favour direct censorship.

I guess that's what you're actually asking?

And actually, I believe that the root cause of bad answers like this is poor questions. Moderators can take unilateral actions there, and there is precedent for that.

tchrist

We drown in poor questions. There is only so much you can do. We’re lost some fine contributors who’ve moved on to Linguistics.SE (for example) because the quality of the questions and answers there are better. There just wasn’t enough here to hold their interests.

Every single day, twenty gazillion people decide to learn English. Some of them come to ELU. These are not the sorts of questions it takes an expert to answer. It just needs a patient native speaker. There is no accumulation of knowledge happening.

medica

@RyeɃreḁd: I've been frustrated recently at noticing what you have. My only advice follows: 1) Vote early and vote often. As users gain rep, who cares about lost rep points? Upvote good answers (and in doing so, encourage good new users with quick rep), and - something people are hesitant to do - down vote bad ones.

If you don't have the time, just vote and leave. Answers with multiple down votes can be deleted by high rep users easily. 2) Comment! Warn users that the answer is wrong. If you have the time, say why it's wrong (in a comment). 3) Answer if you can. A pithy, correct answer is better than no correct answer at all.

4) If you see a person who leaves egregiously bad answers over and over, I'd risk a flag. 5) There's nothing that moderators can currently do. This is ELU's problem, and that means all of us. 6) Close bad questions before they get bad answers! Suggest migration and flag.

7) Some of us have talked about making the quick tour more informative. I'm in favor of this. I don't know that we can force a user to take the tour before answering, but I see little downside to this.

So, to sum it up: Vote often. Comment. Answer. Flag (?) Close.

Again, this is an ELU problem, and mods can do little about the people who answer questions. If we want to site to get better, we all have to do something about it. The mods can close questions (not so popular, but necessary), migrate, delete answers. But not if they don't see them. Help the mods to improve the site.

medica

07:33

@RyeBread - please see Andrew Leach's response above.

Mod candidates, I posted the question on behalf of Rye Bread. Please ping him in your answers.

Matt Эллен

08:19

If someone is providing correct answers that have enough detail then there is nothing we can do. If there is not enough detail then downvote and comment. If the Answer is wrong then downvote and comment if necessary. These are the tools we all have. The problem is that simple questions attract simple answers. If we discourage questions that don't require effort to answer, we'll discourage people who don't put in effort.

@medica pinging RyeBread won't work as he's never been to chat.

medica

Oh dear... what should we do? I'll just let him know in meta that we've answered his question here in chat.

Matt Эллен

yeah

I can't even find a chat user for him, otherwise I'd send him an invite

@medica sounds like the best option

Sudhir

08:44

Hi @MattЭллен

Hope you're doing good.

Hi @Mari-LouA

Mari-Lou A

09:01

to ALL the candidates @phenry @medica @MrHen @AndrewLeach @MattЭллен @Mahnax and users who frequent this room and to @KitFox our mod, NOT Yoishi Oishi because downvoting is out of character. Have you seen Stephen King's recent rampage? He's now deleted several of posts including the SINGLE one from yesterday's. Why? Well... I think getting a FIFTH downvote was a bit too much like rubbing his nose in shit. Who gave this 5th downvote?

Someone from this chat room, it has to be. I'll exclude Yoishi and kitfox. I mean, seriously, people are still disputing whether ELU is friendly? Seriously?! FIVE anonymous downvotes.

Take a look at his profile too english.stackexchange.com/users/79948/steven-king THREE downvotes from yesterday. Why? Who? Coward(s), that's who you are, and not very clever either.

And the current topic is "rudeness" isn't it? How fitting. I really hope the downvotes were NOT cast by a single candidate, if it was I might consider deleting my account out of sheer disgust.

Andrew Leach

09:45

Are you seriously asking people to own up to anonymous vote when the system is designed that way? There's no reason to assume it's anyone here: yesterday's edit would have bumped the question on the front page. But since you do ask, I haven't voted on his answers at all, although I do think that particular one is not particularly useful in actually answering the question.

3

However, I've now added a comment to the answer.

KitFox

10:54

@medica Or you could ask a mod to ping him.

@Mari-LouA Yes. I thought you were the one who brought it to my attention.

As it is, you and I have no idea what has caused it. We can only theorize.

If you look at his profile, you will see he has requested deletion.

@ryeƀreḁd Your question is addressed in the election chat room.

Also, I can't do anything about the capitalization.

@medica It's probably best to answer the actual Meta question.

Mitch

12:22

@Mari-LouA I don't think you understand how voting works. One person, one vote per item.

Also, if we're speculating about motivation, most of the candidates are experienced enough users to be able to know to flag rather than downvote. I suspect multiple regular low rep users followed the 'bandwagon' and piled on (to mix metaphors).

Yoichi Oishi

Marie Lou A. I repeatedly asserted that rampant down-votes and one-sided close-votes are disrespectful to serious, knowledge seeking users. Personally I think it’s inhuman. I said Presidential election and Primary don’t require down or negative votes in order for choosing or evaluating candidates’ ability and suitability for the position. If the question doesn’t come up to the level you expect, you can say so, teach and ask improvement in your answer and comment.

I’d like to show you a very good example. A couple days ago, I raised a question about why my question winning 7 up-votes less 2 down-votes with 360 plus views was closed for the reason of “off-topic. To this question, somebody advised me to rephrase the title of question. It was very valuable advice. I followed him. In a half hour, my question was reopened.

I think this kind of fraternity and mentorship is very important in learning community. Tell and teach the questioners how to improve their questions before pressing down-vote and close vote key. I don’t want to wield authority of Mod by seeking for victims of “Close vote” unless there is 150% concrete reasons for justifying the “negative” decision. Perhaps my position would be minority view.

But if I fail in this election primarily for reason of my objection to blanket down / close votes not accompanied with well-documented and well-supported reasons, I have no regret at all.

Mitch

12:47

@YoichiOishi That's how things are supposed to work. But sometimes the effort to revisit (vote to reopen, change a vote from down to up) is not always compelling enough or easy enough to notice. But note that none of this particular example is necessarily related to activities of a mod.

MrHen

@medica I'll post a response on meta when I get a chance.

@Mari-LouA Firstly, I've already addressed how the number of downvotes is more related to the exposure of a downvotable question than it is related to the overall quality of the question.

@Mari-LouA Secondly, I think asking directly who gave this 5th downvote is inappropriate. The downvote system is anonymous and shouldn't be circumvented. If you are concerned about abuse, flag the post and let the mods know about it.

@Mari-LouA Thirdly, it doesn't "have to be" someone from this chat room. The review queue shows the most downvoted recent posts. Once a post has gathered enough "downvote" steam, things tend to pile on. See my above comments about exposure.

@Mari-LouA Fourthly, calling someone a coward is only useful if you intend to stir up drama. Again, if you are concerned, please inform the mods. If you have a question for the candidates, please ask the question.

@YoichiOishi I think this is a good example of the close system working as intended. The purpose of closing is to give the author of the post time to improve it through edits before more answers arrive.

@Mari-LouA At the risk of offending you, if your threat to delete your account is serious then I recommend you take a step back from this issue and take some time to calm down. If you ever find yourself that upset about something on the site you should inform the moderators and let them deal with. If I happen to be elected, I would expect users to inform me as soon as possible if they felt enough disgust that they were seriously considering deleting their own account in protest.

Alraxite

13:11

Very professional.

MrHen

In the meantime, your ultimatums are only serving to add more drama to the issue. I understand your passion for justice and fairness but after a certain point, there is not much you can do on your own. It is time to get the moderators involved. If you do not feel the moderators can handle the issue adequately, feel some small comfort in the fact that you are about to elect some new moderators.

Alraxite

@MrHen Hmm, what does your picture mean?

MrHen

@Alraxite It's a secret! Well, it isn't so much a secret as it is a really obscure reference to something.

KitFox

It's a picture of a hen.

MrHen

I'm secretly waiting to see if anyone will ever recognize it. :)

Alraxite

13:15

Did you draw it?

KitFox

Oh, I didn't realize it was a secret.

MrHen

@Alraxite I did not.

Alraxite

Hmm.

MrHen

@KitFox It's not a hen. :) And I don't think anyone from years ago ever figured it out.

KitFox

I didn't know I was meant to be trying.

MrHen

13:17

It isn't symbolic, though. It's just a symbol. You'd have to run into it some other way; you won't be able to "decipher" it.

KitFox

Like playing Scan?

MrHen

@KitFox I'll go with yes? What is Scan?

@KitFox I didn't suggest you were?

Alraxite

A symbol which isn't symbolic...

MrHen

@Alraxite ;)

KitFox

@MrHen It's an old game.

@MrHen I didn't say that you suggested I were. If I'd known it was a mystery, I'd have been trying to solve it, is all.

MrHen

13:19

@KitFox Ah.

@KitFox Well, now you know!

Alraxite

Wait, what. Don't keep me out of the circle

MrHen

@Alraxite Now she knows it is a mystery. :)

KitFox

@MrHen boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/4000/scan

MrHen

@KitFox Ahh, an old board game.

KitFox

Card game really.

A lot like Set, but more complicated.

MrHen

13:22

@KitFox It's hard to get less complicated than Set.

I think... Candyland and Chutes and Ladders are the only two that spring to mind.

But I suppose we should stick to talking about the DOOMED election.

KitFox

Oh. Well, you could come over to the main room for chat.

I can't remember why it's doomed now.

MrHen

@KitFox No t-shirts!

KitFox

Oh that's right.

MrHen

@KitFox Fine. :P

KitFox

I hesitate to ask why I can't find that when I search the transcript.

MrHen

13:25

@KitFox Maybe someone moved it?

20 hours ago, by MrHen

Not having a t-shirt during the moderator election is like not wearing a flag pin during the presidential election. I'm doomed!

KitFox

Odd. I thought it would do partial matches.

Alraxite

@MrHen An unrelated question. But do you play video games?

MrHen

@Alraxite I'll answer that over in the main chat!

Alraxite

@MrHen Well, you just did.

OK.

medica

15:00

@Mari-LouA: I told you what I would have done as a mod earlier. I think he showed a lot of potential, and had I been alerted to this situation, I would have contacted him to try to keep him. The down votes are not mine. (They could be anyone’s who reads this chat.) I can’t tell you how sad this makes me. To be a user here is to get down votes, sometimes unexplained. Some people can’t understand that. If he’s like that, he won’t stay. But I would have fought it.

Besides commenting to him, and bringing it to chat for ideas (or a mod), flagging the mods is the only thing that you could have done. Mods can't do something if they don't know it's going on.

This is a sad example of what down votes do, but changing the system isn't the answer. Think of the stale is to steal question.

tchrist

@KitFox I believe that the normal search mechanism applies some fairly standard stemming algorithm (such as the Snowball stemming algorithm, etc) to each unquoted space-separated chunk of your search arguments.

MrHen

@medica (They could be anyone's. There are many different ways that post could have been exposed to more downvoters and automatically associating the new downvotes to people who read this chat is unfounded.)

medica

@MrHen I agree with you. They could have been anyone's. It's sad anyway, though. He was a promising user, but maybe not for this site. :( I agree with you again: tell the mods if you're having a problem. Sometimes they can be found in chat. If they aren't there, ping them anyway. They'll get back to you.

Andrew Leach

@medica It's a sad example of the misinterpretation of downvotes. An explanation of why an answer is "not useful" might help, but it's not a moderation thing. It's a community thing.

MrHen

@AndrewLeach I agree with Andrew, here.

Andrew Leach

15:14

Ultimately this case probably stems from misreading or misunderstanding the question. And, regrettably, it's easily fixed: chalk it up to experience, delete the answer, and carry on.

("Regrettably" because that easy fix hasn't been carried out)

medica

@AndrewLeach I saw that you attempted such a comment. I agree that educating new users is important to their understanding the system here. I've deleted and gone on. That's one of the ways to learn.

It's sad that it offends people. But those of us here with high rep (including you, @MariLou A) have all faced this situation before.

MrHen

@medica You won't make it to high rep if you delete your account after a post of yours is voted into the negatives. :P

medica

Perhaps, and this is iffy, as it appears he is sensitive to down votes, if he had gotten encouraging comments earlier, it might have helped. But I don't know; I've been busy with the election. Maybe he did get scads of good comments. If the site is welcoming and respectful, with an opportunity to learn the system - there's not more that can be done. Except flag or grab a mod.

@MrHen No, indeed. When I joined, there was one user who always down voted me; I could tell exactly when this user was on because suddenly I'd get some down votes. Finally I flagged in frustration. It stopped for a while, but picked up again. It truly stopped when he found a newer newbie to annoy. He does have a lot of down votes, but that's not too bad a thing. I think we're reluctant to give down votes, but if we're going to prune bad questions/answers out... you can't have it both ways.

Alraxite

How do you flag someone downvoting you?

I'm a bit new to using flags...

Matt Эллен

you can't flag someone who is downvoting you

Andrew Leach

15:29

You flag your post, use "Other" and explain what's wrong, linking to other posts as necessary to demonstrate a pattern.

Alraxite

Oh, I see.

Andrew Leach

Because votes are anonymous (in the front-end), you can't attach your vote to a particular user, even if you have a good idea of who's voting.

SE employees can check votes. Moderators can't (I believe).

You may be best to wait to see if the auto-correct-anti-vendetta script puts things right overnight.

MrHen

@medica I get smatterings of clumped downvotes from time to time but now that I'm at 20k+ rep I just laugh it off. :)

medica

@MrHen Strange... isn't it? :)

@AndrewLeach I agree that mostly it's a guess. But when the site is slow, and suddenly a (I can't recall; was it a red -2? appeared in my rep changes, I'd go to that user's webpage, and yep, he'd just gotten on. Without fail! I flagged and it stopped. But today? I'd just shrug. Who can be bothered? I certainly can't be bothered to find out who's voting how.

tchrist

15:54

This is a fine example of the ~~trash~~ stunningly naïve questions that we receive daily on ELU, and as often as not, answers of that ilk, too. When somebody sees a page of these, whether open or closed or duped out or migrated, it gives them the idea that this ELU is a 24h English-help hotline, not a site for getting professional answers to serious English puzzles.

-3

Q: How to use the verb ''to be'' in English grammar?

What is the difference between the following two sentences? He is to be go He shall to go

grammar

medica

migrate!

tchrist

Is that really even a migration candidate, or is it too low even for ELL? I don’t know.

Andrew Leach

Well, ask the ELL mods if it's a question they could accept.

medica

i'd migrate in a shot.

tchrist

@AndrewLeach Agreed.

Andrew Leach

15:56

I'm not sure they would. A poor question is a poor question.

Does anyone know if ell.stackexchange.com/help/how-to-ask is the default boilerplate text, or has it been customised?

tchrist

Looks like boilerplate to me.

medica

We (whoever) need to be in conversation with the mods on that site. If they don't want it, we're doomed! Doomed to close or...

StoneyB just suggested deletion and re-posting at ELL! Yay!

KitFox

@medica Hell, no.

medica

@KitFox ? hell, no, .....?

KitFox

Well, I invited the ELL mods to evaluate it, but I wouldn't send that over.

Alraxite

16:07

I wish @oerkelens would come here.

medica

Well, as I said, if I were to become a mod, I would visit that site and get to know it/the types of questions they take. There is much I don't know yet.

phenry

@Mari-LouA - On the downvotes of steven king's answer, here's the question that was asked:

1

Q: To climb (in) the rankings?

When competing in a contest, is your goal: To climb the rankings or To climb in the rankings ?

prepositions

And here's steven king's answer:

-6

A: To climb (in) the rankings?

The goal is to not merely climb the rankings, not merely ascend the rankings, but to surmount the rankings, to plant one's flag atop the striving heap, to look down on the pretenders, and inhale deeply the rarefied air of victory.

Not only is that not an answer to the question, it's actively contemptuous of the question.

You don't want either of your two choices, you want my self-indulgent crap that doesn't even mean the same thing. Hey, screw you, pal! How about just answering the damn question?

tchrist

Give us this day our daily proofreading, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from help vampires.

phenry

From a review of this user's other answers, he seems to be very impressed with his own facility with the language, and is eager to show it off, often without much regard to what the actual question is.

tchrist

@phenry The original question is poor as well. It’s basically a proofreading request.

phenry

16:20

@tchrist - I would not classify it as such, but if it were, the remedy is to downvote the question, not pollute the answer space with self-indulgent tripe.

Alraxite

BTW @phenry, in your answer to the questionnaire, are you proposing to just change the name of ELL to ESL or also to impose other restrictions on who're allowed to participate on the sites?

tchrist

Almost all questions are like that these days. Exceedingly low-quality help-vampire proofreading requests from pineapples.

1

Q: Is using "too" correct in "As X, so too Y"?

Is the usage of "too" correct in this sentence? As the systems we simulate become increasingly complex, so too does the task of validation.

sentence comparison

0

Q: What's the difference between after and afterwards?

What are you going to do afterwards? What are you going to do after? Which one is the correct one and why?

differences

phenry

I see also that this user had previously been told that his answers were not helpful.

KitFox

@tchrist This one might be topical here.

phenry

Given all this, my sympathy for him is perhaps not as keen as it could be.

tchrist

16:23

@KitFox I’m not sure that bare “Is this correct?” questions are ever good ones.

Andrew Leach

All of those three questions would admit an answer which explained why there is (or is not) a difference or why something is correct. An easy answer is not generally a complete answer.

phenry

If he feels he has to quit the site now, that's too bad, but I really don't think he's been subject to anything we need to feel ashamed of.

tchrist

Particularly those answerable by a dictionary, let alone by any native speaker no matter how uneducated.

KitFox

@tchrist True, but there is something interesting there in the construction. Salvageable, I believe.

tchrist

@phenry Has he complained?

Andrew Leach

16:25

Commutes. BBL.

phenry

7 hours ago, by Mari-Lou A

to ALL the candidates @phenry @medica @MrHen @AndrewLeach @MattЭллен @Mahnax and users who frequent this room and to @KitFox our mod, NOT Yoishi Oishi because downvoting is out of character. Have you seen Stephen King's recent rampage? He's now deleted several of posts including the SINGLE one from yesterday's. Why? Well... I think getting a FIFTH downvote was a bit too much like rubbing his nose in shit. Who gave this 5th downvote?

@tchrist - he's throwing a tantrum, perhaps due to the reception that answer received.

@AndrewLeach - I agree. Just because a too-easy answer can be given does not obligate us to give it.

tchrist

@phenry Oh I see. He has the “delete me” in his profile.

phenry

@Alraxite - I hate to answer in weasel words, but that depends on what you mean by "restrictions." Most (though not all) SE sites assume that, while there will be people who predominantly ask questions and people who predominantly give answers, every user could conceivably be both an asker and an answerer at different times.

ELL is an unusual animal in that there is practically no overlap between those who would ask questions and those who would answer them.

tchrist

@phenry The gentleman is in his 60s. I bet I could give you a list of former but similarly agèd contributors who brought with them a cross between pontification and “I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore!” — if you know what I mean.

phenry

That being the case, the well-being of ELL depends in large part on the willingness of people to answer questions on a site that is unlikely to direcly benefit them personally.

Clearly, we can't do much to restrict membership to the site, as it would deprive ELL of people who are qualified to answer questions.

But I believe it's appropriate to state explicitly that ELL is specifically for questions from speakers of other languages who are learning English, and that other questions are off-topic.

tchrist

16:35

@phenry It really is not appropriate to ask that anyone relinquish the anonymity of their vote, don’t you think?

I say this from a neutral bias; I did not vote on that answer.

phenry

In fact, the description for ELL does say that pretty specifically in a few places, but unfortunately ELL's mission statement got a bit muddled during its creation process.

I would say that the restriction on what should be considered on-topic at ELL should be restated before it is allowed out of beta. ELL should be specifically for questions from non-native speakers, and should not allow questions from native or fluent speakers that are simply "too basic" for ELU as some see them.

@Alraxite - I hope that answers your question.

@tchrist - That was Mari-Lou A's request, not mine.

tchrist

@phenry I know. I was testing your position. :)

phenry

@tchrist - You do enjoy testing candidates. Any more testing from you and I'm going to have to find a #2 pencil.

:), of course.

tchrist

@phenry Better testing than trying.

I do not enjoy trying candidates; they are too tedious.

phenry

@tchrist - If so, it's probably a good thing that they're former contributors. I can be as self-important as anyone in my answers, but I do try to at least answer the question.

tchrist

16:43

@phenry It’s hardly automatic, but I do find that it runs higher in that age group, and perhaps in that gender group, than in other combinations of the same.

phenry

@tchrist - Possibly so.

Alraxite

@phenry But certainly, you wouldn't disagree that there are native speakers who do not know the first thing about grammatical rules who can come here ask the same basic questions that NNS do? Even if we adopt the rule that all questions from natives, no matter how basic, are allowed on ELU, how are you going to tell whether the questioner is a native speaker? They could simply lie.

Your proposal may be good in theory, but it seems difficult to exercise in practice.

phenry

@Alraxite - True, if guessing with 100% certainty that someone is or isn't a native speaker, that's a standard we won't be able to meet. But we don't have to.

We can often guess that someone is a non-native speaker because non-native speakers tend to ask different kinds of questions than native speakers do.

StoneyB

@KitFox I suspect it would not be accepted as a migration. Note that I suggested that OP recast the question to include proper construction of these expressions, too.

tchrist

@phenry Hm. Only kinda-sorta. Change that to fluent speakers, and you might be closer to the mark.

I actually do believe that non-fluent speakers can ask good questions on ELU and receive good answers.

phenry

16:51

@tchrist - Yes, I can agree with that. "Fluent" is my preferred terminology too.

tchrist

It just doesn’t happen as much as I wish it would.

phenry

@tchrist - That's part of why I think ELL should be specifically targeted to people whose level of fluency is about at the level of ESL/EFL classes. If they're fluent to the point where they don't need to ask endless "which preposition" questions, they should be able to ask (good) questions here.

If I'm elected, I would like to spearhead a joint effort with ELL to define where the boundary between the two sites lies. I feel like both sites have sort of been talking past each other and it's led to ill feelings in both places.

StoneyB

@tchrist Fluent users of Standard Written English. There's a lot of NS kids arriving at college unable to read the textbooks or write the papers because SWE is essentially a foreign language.

Alraxite

I'm not too concerned with renaming ELL to ESL.

It's just the policy of allowing basic questions from native speakers that seems dubious to me.

I see no point of why a question from a native asking about what subjunctives are be allowed over the same question from a non-native. Why do you think ELU should allow basic questions from natives?

Your reform strategy looks just as well without this policy.

@phenry

phenry

@StoneyB - I think a native speaker who is unfamiliar with standard written English is unlikely to ask whether you play football "on a field" or "in a field," for example. Preposition confusion is a hallmark of non-native, non-fluent speech.

Alraxite

17:03

Your other points seem good but this one seems unnecessary.

phenry

@Alraxite - I'll answer your question by asking another one. If a person asks a basic question about grammar, and it gets a good answer, what harm has been done?

Alraxite

@phenry Well, none. But perhaps, the question could be regarded as a low quality one if it is too basic and thus, just contribute to the low repute of many questions on ELU.

We don't want (very) basic questions on ELU, right?

StoneyB

@phenry Some kinds of questions are characteristic of NNS; but questions about dangling participles and the use of tense-forms are not.

phenry

@Alraxite - Does ELU have a reputation for low-quality questions? Or are we confusing our own opinions for those of the outside world?

Alraxite

@phenry I'm not sure what you're getting at. My point is that what difference is there if the same basic question is asked from a native rather than a non-native?

But, to answer your question, I do think ELU does have many questions that are not suitable for 'experts in the language' and thus not suitable here.

phenry

17:12

@Alraxite - I think a native speaker and a non-native speaker can both ask exactly the same question, which can therefore be on-topic both here and at ELL. But non-fluent speakers are likely to find better help at ELL, in general--if not for that question, then for others they may ask in the future.

StoneyB

@Alraxite Among other things, the type of answer required. An NS can in many cases be answered ostensively: "Construction A can be understood as analogous to Construction B"; but that won't work with an NNS, because the NNS doesn't understand Construction B, either.

phenry

@StoneyB - yes, this.

Alraxite

Right, so they may require different answers.

Though I think this policy will do little to help, since OPs can simply claim they live in the US.

Maybe it's a good one to adopt.

But carrying it out still seems difficult.

But I don't believe I have other objections.

phenry

@Alraxite - So we apply the ELU version of a Turing test, if the question doesn't make it clear, with a reasonably high degree of certainty, that they are a non-fluent speaker who would be better served at ELL, we just answer the question and don't give it a second thought.

MrHen

@phenry There is an obvious exception where it relates to dialects. The "in hospital" being the canonical example.

phenry

17:16

@MrHen - Sure. I don't think qualified answerers would be tripped up by that.

Alraxite

@phenry Right, I understand.

MrHen

@phenry But such a question should be accepted by ELU, yes?

phenry

@Alraxite - My basic philosophy is that we are not an expert-level site and will never be one, for two reasons: we've gotten too big, and our URL is english.stackexchange.com. We need to live in the world that exists, and accept that we must allow some more basic-level questions, or we will be forever closing questions and alienating people until the end of time or the server is unplugged, whichever comes first.

@MrHen - Sure. I can see how an AE speaker might have a question about what's the deal with "in hospital" and why does the BBC keep saying it.

Alraxite

@phenry Yes! I do agree with the URL reason. If this site hadn't had the plain 'english' domain, this site would have been much less of an attraction for non-fluent speakers.

Just like MathOverflow and Math.SE

phenry

@Alraxite - Yes. I understand why some people might feel disappointed by how things have shaken out. But it is what it is. The time has come to accept it.

Alraxite

17:24

@phenry Perhaps, I'm missing an obvious counter point here, but why haven't the folks considered changing this site's name to something less obvious and changing ELL's name to this site's name?

Well, not changing ELL to exactly match this site's name because that could cause confusion for the regulars.

But something similar.

I think this could certainly be done.

And that might help in your agenda.

phenry

@Alraxite - That's been proposed, but I don't think it's gone past the stage of ruminations on meta. My opinion is that it would be too disruptive and provide no clear benefit for the majority of people.

For one thing, that would mean that there would no longer be a place dedicated to the needs of ESL-level learners, which would be a shame.

For another, we do already have a place for graduate-level questions about English--the "English" tag on Linguistics SE.

Alraxite

@phenry Yes, but then the new english.SE could simply redefine its scope to include ESL speakers. Wouldn't be difficult to communicate this idea since this URL is a already target of many question from non-fluent speakers.

@phenry OK. I see.

Marthaª

Just tromping in here to say the ELL is not just for "which preposition"-type questions from NNS; it's also for "I'm trying to explain [x] to a NNS"-type questions.

phenry

In my opinion, the broad-based English site should have been the first one, and the second one should have been an advanced-level site. But that's not how it happened.

Alraxite

@phenry Oh.

@phenry Yes, agreed.

@phenry Thanks for staying by and answering my questions.

phenry

17:30

@Marthaª - Fair enough. Questions about teaching English to non-fluent speakers (including young native speakers who are still acquiring language) are ideal for ELL.

And maybe that means we shouldn't change ELL's name and URL, frankly.

I just don't think we should be telling a 50-year-old who's spoken English all his life to "go ask your question at English Language Learners." That's just insulting.

@Alraxite - No problem.

Marthaª

@phenry I agree. I think the problem in most such cases is (a) jaded ELU users who close first, ask questions laters, or (b) askers who try to phrase their question in as general terms as possible, either because they mistakenly think that'll get them better answers, or because they're not sure enough of the terminology to ask the question in a more specific manner. (I know I always have to look up "transitive" vs. "intransitive".)

In general, I think it is a Bad Idea (TM) to try to define the scope of either site based on the fluency (or lack thereof) of the asker. ELL is for questions and answers about learning English, plain and simple. It's not a dumping ground for questions that some people on ELU think are too basic.

phenry

@Marthaª - You're absolutely right. Rarely is the adage "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" more apropos than when discussing English.

Marthaª

(What's a too basic question, anyway? If you can't look it up in a dictionary or thesaurus, can it even be too basic? Do you or anybody you know still have an English textbook lying around, so you can look up the grammar terminology that went in one ear and out the other in 9th grade?)

phenry

@Marthaª - Exactly. Straight dictionary lookups are one thing, but how can grammar questions be "general reference"--especially if you don't know the name of the thing you're looking up?

2

Andrew Leach

@Alraxite I suggested that in Meta and got +20 on that answer.

phenry

17:42

@Marthaª - Isn't "learning English" a lot harder to define, though? I'm still learning English, and I've been making my living as a writer for 15 years.

Alraxite

@AndrewLeach Why isn't the community taking it further then?

Andrew Leach

It wasn't very long ago.

Marthaª

@phenry You're not learning English anymore. You're learning more about English, which is not the same thing.

Alraxite

@AndrewLeach I've seen Meta mosts on MSE where they would have two answers, one in support and one in disagreement, on the proposal to which they are answers.

The community then decides by voting.

Andrew Leach

Yes, but it wasn't very long ago and we've sort of got distracted in the last couple of weeks.

phenry

17:46

@Marthaª - When did I stop learning English and start learning more about English? I think we might be down to semantics at this point, where you say "learning English" and I say "non-fluent" but we're both describing mostly the same thing.

Andrew Leach

[I hate chat on an iPad.]

Alraxite

@AndrewLeach OK. I'll hope there will be proposals about this on meta in the future then

StoneyB

<climbing on my hobby horse>I think it should be noted, too, that a lot of the "too basic" closures are very hard questions; they're closed by third- or fourth-tier answerers who are often accomplished practitioners of the Language but have no understanding of the complex linguistic issues involved. I was one of those when I first came here; and then I saw what questions John Lawler and others of his stature were addressing, and how they were addressing them. ... </climbing off>

Marthaª

@phenry We are both describing the same thing; I'm just opposed to discriminating based on fluency, is all. The discrimination needs to happen based on the type of question, not on the language skills of the asker.

Different topic, @phenry: could you elaborate on your opinion of SWRs? Your meta questionnaire post says one thing, and then in the comments you seem to say just the opposite.

phenry

@Marthaª - I'm not overly concerned with the terminology, as long as everyone understands it and people aren't made to feel like lesser beings because of it.

Andrew Leach

17:50

@StoneyB I agree. I wish Prof. Lawler would actually answer these questions, with a comment (his, or someone else) to say "If this wasn't what you were looking for, try ELL."

[Ah. Found "mobile" link. That's better.]

MrHen

@AndrewLeach I wish Prof. Lawler would answer in answers instead of in comments. ;P

Marthaª

@StoneyB I agree with what you say and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

phenry

@Marthaª - I apologize for any inconsistency. I guess I mentally divide SWRs into three groups: those that are easy to answer, those that may be answerable, and the ones that anyone with enough rep to close-vote can tell will never have an answer (the "single word for when you make a reuben sandwich and your cousin eats it without telling you" questions).

StoneyB

@AndrewLeach I wish John Lawler would move to ELL, so the questions would get answered right the first time! There are only three or four really sophisticated answerers over there, and people like me have to scramble all over Google to come up with half-assed approximations. I'm afraid I learn a lot more on ELL than the folks who are supposed to be our clients.

phenry

The first group and the third group aren't the problem, in my opinion: questions in the first group get answered quickly, and we shouldn't feel bad about closing the ones in the third group, because really now.

Marthaª

17:57

@phenry Closing with what reason? If there is no such word, isn't the correct answer "there is no such word"? It's an answerable, on-topic question.

phenry

The second group, where there may be a word like that but no one can really bring it to mind, and several people suggest things that are close but only sort of close and not really close enough to be answers... those are the ones that just devolve into guessing games. I'm okay with closing those as Too Broad, but I would prefer that we wait a bit before doing so to at least allow for the chance that the question will be answered.

Alraxite

@Marthaª I do agree with that. I believe phenry's response (supplemented by StoneyB's) was that the distinction allows answerers to provide answers that are tailored for them. So, I believe phenry is advocating to make ELU a site where the answers are all intended for NS.

phenry

@Marthaª - Yeah, that's why I wish we had the "not constructive" and "too localized" close reasons back. It may be that we need a new custom answer for questions that are basically too ridiculous to have any correct answer.

Marthaª

@phenry Again, I disagree that just because it's a hard SWR it should be closed as too broad. Protected, maybe, if it's getting bikeshedding answers, but not closed, not unless it really is too broad.

Why do we need to close questions just because we think they're "too ridiculous to have any correct answer"? What's wrong with downvoting them (to oblivion, if they're really that bad)?

MrHen

@Marthaª I agree with this. Not all bad questions need to be closed. Downvoting them low enough to get deleted works just as well.

phenry

18:05

@Marthaª - Perhaps we need to ask the questioner whether they're looking for a word that will be understood by most people and can be used in practical applications, or whether they're basically just saying "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if there were some crazy 16th century word for this?".

StoneyB

@Marthaª Well, there's always a tension between downvoting and closevoting, and it often feels more gracious to say "This question doesn't belong here" than "This question is rubbish".

phenry

If the questioner is looking for a practical answer, then at some point it becomes appropriate to say "Given the lack of workable suggestions that have been made, it appears that there is no useful word for what you're asking," and that would be the correct answer.

If they're just looking for some obscure Balderdash-level word, then it may not be possible to ever answer the question, unless someone has memorized the OED.

Marthaª

@StoneyB The problem with that is twofold. (1) To a newbie, a closevote is emotionally equivalent to a downvote. (2) If we misapply close reasons, we (deservedly, perhaps) acquire a reputation for inconsistency/capriciousness - we say one thing but do another.

phenry

But then with a question like that, they're basically just shooting the breeze anyway, and we shouldn't feel obligated to keep it around for an open-ended guessing game.

StoneyB

@phenry ELU and ELL both need a standalone "INSUFFICIENT CONTEXT" closereason, applied swiftly and not subject to reopening until the needed context is supplied. But I'm afraid that ain't gonna happen.

5

phenry

18:14

@StoneyB - I actually would prefer that to "unclear what you're asking," which can come across like "You are incoherent and possibly mentally ill."

StoneyB

@Marthaª "On hold" and language emphasizing redeemability can take the sting out; and closure is redeemable but who revisits downvotes? Me, I almost never downvote questions any more (especially since I read this); it's too much work sorting out the difference between "This is a bad question" and "I don't like this question".

Marthaª

OK, I'm no closer to knowing who I should vote for in the election, but I have to go now. Have fun all, and good luck to you italicized folk!

Andrew Leach

@StoneyB "Unclear what you're asking" will work for that. I'm in favour of using that quickly.

medica

@phenry - I think you may have mischaracterized Steven King.

StoneyB

@AndrewLeach Well, I personally dislike "unclear what you're asking", because as often as not it is perfectly clear what they're asking and the problem is that it's a question to which there is no answer! But yeah, that's what I usually use.

Mari-Lou A

18:29

@MrHen Right, so I create drama when I write on meta, and when I inform future mods in chat, that's me playing drama queen. So, best keep silent, don't stir the waters, users unfriendly unhelpful? I found the proof that someone asked for. Coincidence that yesterday I mentioned the four downvotes on the one question, and today there are four new ones, all without a comment. Yes. My question as to who downvoted was rhetorical, I know full well nobody will admit it.

MrHen

@Mari-LouA No, you shouldn't keep silent. How did you interpret my message as me telling you to be quiet? Also, I'm not sure what "proof" you are referring to?

medica

@phenry I first noticed him in a very interedting comment he made (which I agreed with), so I looked him up. He was very new then, and I watched with joy that this wasn't someone who was likely to actually provide good answers had come along.

@phenry I lost track of him during the elections, and am sorry he went.

@Mari-LouA - I don't know why you think it was one of us. I'd show you my voting record if I could.

Mari-Lou A

I need to catch up on the transcript, and I am fed up of hearing you and Tim Limington accusing me of adding drama. Every single time I discuss what I see is an irregularity. I get inflamed, I get passionate about things, more the reason for me not to candidate myself in the future. Being a mod, is a hard task.

MrHen

@Mari-LouA Let me know when you catch up and if you want to chat about what I said.

I can wait.

medica

@Mari-LouA - it's better to be passionate about something than be silently fuming.

Alraxite

18:34

Who is Tim Limington?

phenry

@Mari-LouA , I will answer your question: I downvoted that answer. I believe I was the first person to do so. I then wrote an answer that actually addressed the question.

medica

@MrHen- you can open a room to discuss something right now; it need not be in chat.

phenry

I don't believe I should be held responsible for X number of people downvoting it after I did; they made their own choices. But I did downvote it.

MrHen

@medica I think Mari-LouA was noting that she wanted to catch up on the transcript first.

medica

@MrHen yes. I mentioned a room because she doesn't like chat. Sorry.

MrHen

18:38

@medica Ah, okay. I am willing to discuss wherever she is most comfortable.

Mari-Lou A

@medica I'm sorry but I brought it to everyone's attention. The user had only deleted his highest scored answer. I flagged the post, and then I came here to report. So everyone in this Chat room knew about it. Do you really believe @mitch that seasoned users flag "wrong" answers. Did you see this post in any of the queues? It's maybe two days I haven't visited the flag queue, I don't recall seeing SK's post as being marked low quality.

medica

@Mari-LouA I have not been doing queue work much since manning this Election Chat.

I did look at the question when you brought it up and it was at -5 then.

I don't know who added downvotes.

MrHen

Btw, here is the "lowest voted" list I mentioned: english.stackexchange.com/…

medica

No, I don't believe that seasoned users flag wrong answers.

Mari-Lou A

@phenry First downvote is fine, but when it's two and more without any comments, that I find it extremely objectionable and unfriendly, and today's 5th downvote was rude.

medica

18:45

I hesitated to mention flagging last night in response to RyeBread, but I think more flagging, not less, should be done. Unvortunately, the mods were busy with this election as well.

MrHen

@medica "mods were bust"? busy?

medica

Sorry, busy.

MrHen

@Mari-LouA Btw, here is another post at -4 without any comments:

-4

A: Word or Phrase For Someone Who Overreacts Against Wrong Source

Of course, modern capitalism would immediately grind to a screeching halt if we went around banning products that are harmful or lethal to consumers, and the end of the Cold War showed that God Herself endorses modern capitalism without the slightest reservation. But for those lacking that leve...

So this kind of thing does happen elsewhere.

I think this is actually a really good topic to discuss, though. I think posts that are severely negative should get some comment to help the user figure out what happened.

I could probably build such a query on Data.SE and that would give us a way to detect them. Unfortunately, Data.SE has a one-week lag time.

So that may not be fast enough to matter.

medica

umm... I don't particularly like that answer. I don't know that I'd downvote it, but the answer is convoluted.

phenry

@medica - I would say that that answer does a better job of actually attempting to answer the question than does Mr. King's downvoted answer.

MrHen

18:53

I'd rather not focus too much on whether that particular post deserves its state. I think the interesting question is what to do with posts in that state.

medica

@phenry I dunno, it's not my job to talk about various users here. There are things that just strike me wrong about that answer, in that there are a significant number of nan sequiturs in it.

MrHen

> Posts with notable activity -- Most commented -- 41 Short, Politically Correct word for Native Americans

Wow. 41 comments on a post...

medica

@phenry I don't mind a few, but a string of them is harder to swallow.

phenry

@medica - I agree. Actually, I think both answers are very similar, in that they both mostly ignore the question that was asked and mainly serve as a platform for self-important nattering.

MrHen

I have a meeting. @Mari-LouA, if you still want to chat we can figure out an appropriate time.

medica

18:57

@Mari-LouA At 20K you can see what was in the queues and who voted for them. You might even have that now.

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