EL&U 2014 Election - 2014-06-19 (page 3 of 3)

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11:00 PM

@MrHen I hope you're right about that.

user116848

Any of you guys can come up here chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/15120/… so I can discuss something else that I want to chat about

@MrHen - Yes, I do.

13

Q: Proposal for narrowing the scope of the "reference" close vote

I strongly disagree that "questions that can be answered using commonly available references" should be considered "off-topic" at all, but I can at least understand why someone would want to close questions that can be fully answered by trivially looking up a definition in an online dictionary, f...

discussion feature-request close-reasons

@medica I have my two candidates, I'm undecided on the third, I'm not totally convinced

I raised this issue in January. 13 upvotes, which is a lot. It was basically ignored.

At times I feel like all one person can do is punch into this giant marshmallow, and as soon as you remove your arm, it will fluff back out to what it was before.

@Mari-LouA well, I appreciate that you even considered me a good candidate. That you braved chat to say so.

11:02 PM

@medica I know I am because I've seen it happen before. I've also seen various smaller areas where particular users have actively sought to improve the site. Not all of them have succeeded. Change is hard.

@Mari-LouA it encouraged me to go for it.

Is it my impression but the number of upvotes per question has really decreased. How often do you upvote questions and answers on average per day?

I don't expect to make a proposal and have it be immediately accepted. But I feel like making a serious proposal in meta leads to nothing.

@Mari-LouA I try to upvote every good question I see, honestly.

@Mari-LouA - I get it - I thought it was funny :)

11:03 PM

@phenry It's the old vanguard

@phenry Out of curiosity, why do you think the issue is the current moderator team?

@Mari-LouA - yes, and that's why I felt it wasn't enough just to vote and hope for the best - I needed to do more

@Mari-LouA I just don't read every question every day, though.

@MrHen good question.

@phenry 13 upvotes isn't really that big of a deal. I have proposed a ton of stuff on meta in the past. People clicking upvote doesn't mean they are actually willing to do anything about it. :P

@MrHen - You know, I don't know. I'm sure they're all lovely people.

11:05 PM

@medica I do try to keep an eye on the elections; they can be a tumultuous event at times, so worth being involved. Also a good opportunity to see what folks think about their site.

user116848

@MrHen Can I ask something here chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/15120/…

@Mari-LouA I am under the same impression. Most of the questions in the Unanswered queue have already been answered but the answers were never upvoted.

@Shog9 your presence (and advice) is appreciated.

I'm glad election chat has been active today!

@MrHen - well, that's sort of the point, isn't it? If someone posts a feature-request question, don't they at least deserve a status-declined tag eventually, if not status-accepted?

Hi
which of the following are most correct:
From our results, it can be observed an improvement in the system performance when the opportunistic technique has been considered, while the ….

From our results, an improvement in the system performance can be observed when the opportunistic technique has been considered, while the ….more accepted

11:07 PM

@phenry So you think the issue is the current moderator team but you don't know why?

@barznjy Hi, I'm afraid you're on the wrong site. :( The correct site to ask this is the main chat. Here. Good luck! You will get help there.

@Arrowfar Sure. I can see the chat room so post whatever you want.

@medica sorry, I forget to wear my glasses ...

@barznjy Not a problem!! :-)

@medica Thanks! (Sorry for the delayed response; new to chat room.) Good luck in the elections!

11:09 PM

@phenry Only if it's actually been accepted or declined. :P But yeah, I would expect something.

@MrHen - I believe that the old vanguard, as @Mari-LouA put it, is committed to a philosophy for this site that is not in tune with what the user base or the public at large wants.

@dingo_dan Thanks! And please continue to post in Meta. They are a calmness in the turbulence of posts.

What about questions, do they need to generate answers in order to be upvoted? Can a question be interesting but prove to to be unanswerable. I've posed a number of questions in the past which have covered different aspects of the language, from the trivial, chatty to the more serious and thoughtful. And I've been struck how the most esteemed users have generally ignored my posts, excluding J. Lawler yesterday. I was NOT expecting that.

@phenry Committed how? And why do you think they are committed to this philosophy?

@Mari-LouA - I frequently look at a question with no answers, say "hey, I'd like to know that too," and upvote it.

11:12 PM

@Mari-LouA No; I actually think answerable questions are better. But I'll upvote a question if it's good, regardless.

user116848

@MrHen I posted my question there

@Mari-LouA Questions that are interesting or useful should be upvoted, yes. Some questions are harder to answer than others but that doesn't make them less interesting or useful.

@Mari-LouA :(

@medica Well, yes, it should be answerable. :P

@MrHen They aren't always.

11:13 PM

@medica I think unanswerable questions are not a good fit for the StackExchange network.

@MrHen they can still be good, however, and thought provoking.

@phenry By the way, I'm not trying to give you crap or trying to disagree. I'm just trying to listen and learn.

@MrHen in principle, I agree with you. But sometimes the best answer is POB...

@MrHen - no, I get that totally. these are very good and thought-provoking questions.

they just take a long time to compose an answer.

@medica Sure, but "thought provoking" doesn't inherently mean "good fit for StackExchange." Otherwise we'd be happy to see a bunch of riddles. ;)

@phenry Yes. :)

11:16 PM

@MrHen agreed. It's better to have an answer for the recors and posterity. But a good question can also impart gravitas.

@medica Also, there isn't anything inherently wrong with POB questions as long as they are still answerable and fit well with the StackExchange network. Some POB questions are bad and should be closed. But not all.

@medica Yeah, I don't have a problem with people answering questions even if they aren't a great fit for the site. That used to bug me a lot but I've realized it doesn't actually hurt anyone.

@MrHen - Anything I could say would just be speculation, but I think that EL&U was created with a fatal flaw: it is supposedly for "serious" English enthusiasts, but it was the only site devoted to English usage at the time of its creation, and it lives at "english.stackoverflow.com".

@MrHen Agreed again. But there are those who insist on canonical references, which, with some POB answers, isn't possible.

People claim that it encourages similar questions from being asked but I'm not sure I agree.

Now it's huge. It can never be a place for advanced English questions only. That bell will never be unrung.

I think it's natural that there would be people who would want to rebel against that development, and retrench.

11:18 PM

@phenry I can understand that. Three years ago there was a lot of work on the site that would have fit under that banner.

21

Q: Is EL&U succeeding?

What with all of the hubbub lately, I want to focus on asking one specific question that I think is at the core of the problem/drama: Is EL&U succeeding? This is fairly open-ended and I think that is fine. The intent is to try and start locating things for us to work on or, at the very least, wa...

discussion experts audience

I called it out way back then.

16

Q: Who is EL&U's audience?

I previously asked if EL&U was succeeding. The responses there (mixed in with other answers, comments and chats on the subject) lead me to feel that one of the big questions our community has before them is, "Who is our audience?" Note that this is a slightly different question than, "Who are ou...

discussion audience

I'm not saying I don't understand the impulse. I do. But I think we all need to face reality.

@MrHen - and see, questions like that generate lots of mumbling but never any clear answers.

@phenry I think there is still a place for experts and their questions and answers.

It has become necessary to force the issue, sorry to say.

But I don't think that means we have to kick out the novice questions (within reason).

@MrHen - yeah, absolutely. It's a big site. There's room.

11:20 PM

@phenry So, in the forcing, are you concerned with losing some of the regular contributors?

@MrHen but the question arises: what is a novice question? And on that, there is a great divide.

And there's always linguistics SE for the really hardcore academic stuff.

@phenry Yes. This typically happens on community driven sites as a whole since the moderator teams are trying to speak for the community but the community tends to spend its time calling out problems instead of agreeing on solutions.

@medica Well, "too novice", anyway.

@phenry Yes. That is a big difference between now and then.

@MrHen - I'm optimistic that there's a middle ground to be had.

@phenry I personally agree and that's what I'm hoping to steer toward if I get elected.

11:22 PM

Example: Suppose we say that straight single-word dictionary lookups are GR and off-topic, but grammar queries, which are more difficult to look up in a standard online reference, are in-bounds.

Primarily by focusing on things similar to what you've called out.

Some people won't like that, will wail about the death of civilization as we know it, etc.

But come on now, will it really kill us to let people ask grammar questions? We (meaning those of us with high rep scores) can just ignore them and they'll be happily answered by lower-rep people eager to gain rep.

@phenry Yeah. But this comes back to an earlier discussion between you and I. We have a great Answer rate so I think it should be safe to let a few more questions through.

Well, don't you think it's increasingly more difficult not to close questions as being off topic/G.Reference? Someone, somewhere has already asked for the meaning/etymology/grammar/synonym/ antonym etc.

I'm finding it difficult to post questions myself when I realize that Wiki and Etymonline may have the answers I'm looking for. In the end, it's the POB questions which are not searchable, and which will prove to be more interesting for future visitors (I am of course making sweeping statements but do you see my point?)

@phenry I think we've now entered the same topic we've discussed before :D

11:24 PM

@MrHen - ESPECIALLY questions that by their nature are certain to get quickly and correctly answered anyway.

@phenry now that brings up the topic of low quality answers being a problem.

@Mari-LouA Hence a need for clarifying what references are meant by "general reference"

@Mari-LouA - Personally, I can be pretty ruthless closing dupes.

@Mari-LouA I question the need to ask questions that can be answered via Wikipedia, though. If the goal is to get an answer, it seems relatively straightforward to get that answer.

@medica - but is it the simple, easy questions that get low-quality answers?

Seems to me it should be the opposite.

11:25 PM

@Mari-LouA I don't know to whom you're addressing this, but I agree.

Etymonline isn't really known outside of people who look this stuff up regularly.

@phenry Gosh, no. Some of our worst answers are from low-rep users who really don't know what they're talking about.

I am not terribly supportive of questions that are asked simply to gain reputation on the site.

@medica to all the candidates. I think, this will be a real problem for the site's well being

if we ignore ALL POB questions as being off-topic

@medica - and those answers should get voted down, and they do, mostly.

11:27 PM

@phenry And then, when I correct them (gently, like by *we love sources, etc) they bitch at me.

@Mari-LouA I don't think anyone has actually suggested ignoring all POB questions, have they?

@medica People are lazy and get annoyed when you expect them to do more work than simply typing something up.

@phenry Just yesterday? I think? a woman left in a huff after posting an answer consisting of a chart on cursive writing.

@medica - I try to be guided by my own conscience on those. If I did due diligence and they curse me out for it, I don't give it a second thought. I sleep the sleep of the just.

They are generally more receptive if you ask them a question instead of giving them a command. "Oh, interesting. Do you happen to have a source for that?"

@MrHen lazy is acceptable. Some are just entitled.

11:29 PM

@MrHen does this mean, you agree with me? Wait, hold the front page

@MrHen see above statement.

@MrHen - This, actually, is where we left off the other day, and I've been giving your points some thought.

@Mari-LouA ;) I'm sneaky like that. :D

I do just that. This is an interesting ides. We appreciate your answer. It would be even better if there was a link to your source. Thanks! (but no cigar)

@MrHen - What is the specific problem with less competent people gaining rep from easy questions, IF their terrible answers still get routinely voted down?

People coming to the site are going to pay attention to the big number next to the question, not the small number next to the answerer's name.

11:31 PM

@phenry Yeah, it relates to rep farming. I don't have a problem with people asking good questions even if they do it just to gain rep. But there is a certain class of questions that rep farmers tend to come up with that follow the "letter of the law" but are still completely utterly useless.

@phenry I know you're asking MrHen, but I have an answer: It looks ugly and unfriendly on the site.

We've actually banned some users that kept posting questions like the ones I'm talking about.

(And by "we" I mean the moderators active at the time.)

@MrHen but POB is off-topic, if I ask: What's the difference in meaning between X and Y and someone fobs me off with GR, I might then ask but I want a native speaker's viewpoint. And that too will generated a POB risposta

(And this was years ago.)

@medica - But having a higher rep doesn't increase someone's ability to post a terrible answer. You can post an answer with 1 rep.

11:32 PM

reply

@phenry yes, and it happens often. But the higher rep users tend to have better answers.

@phenry I don't have an inherent problem with that, actually. I have more of an issue with people who know better posting questions that can be answered using easily available sources.

E.g., if a user knows how to etymonline and posts a question that can be answered using etymonline I'm not terribly thrilled.

@phenry Right. What I'm talking about only really relates to questions.

@medica - They do, yes, but when they don't, they should get voted down like anyone else.

@MrHen I judge those on the merits of the question.

@Mari-LouA Not all POB is off-topic, though. If you didn't know that, maybe we need to be more clear in the guidelines. :/

11:34 PM

@phenry no argument there!

@MrHen - well, that's a structural problem with SE. Since the earliest days of stack overflow there have been people who like to machine-gun the network with terrible questions and won't listen to anyone telling them to stop.

@MrHen I have a problem with that, too.

@medica Right, me too. But I still get a little suspicious of the user's goals for being on ELU and asking questions.

user116848

@MrHen I reworded it there

@MrHen sure. so do I.

11:36 PM

@Arrowfar Oh, ha, sorry. I'll swing by. :)

user116848

okay :)

@medica And that's really the only point. I don't like it; it makes me suspicious. But I'm not going to kick the question off the site.

@MrHen sometimes I want to. Sister rape, really?

this is going to sound terrible, but... we don't administer a test for mental fitness before allowing someone to post here. Some people are just eccentric.

@medica But as I said, some users have been kicked off the site entirely for walking too close to this line.

The worst questions are the "riddle questions" which give us an obscure definition in a single-word-request and then get annoyed when people come up with a ton of alternative answers.

11:38 PM

@MrHen the sister rape guy is back.

@phenry Stupid people can still ask great questions.

@medica - I write technical documentation for a living. trust me: just because you require someone to read something doesn't mean they actually read it.

@medica I wasn't referring to that particular user.

I never even saw that question.

@phenry Sadly true. :(

@MrHen It was a doozy, trust me.

I also write a lot of documentation. :(

@medica Sounds like it. :P

11:40 PM

@MrHen But it had a gratifying comment thread calling the user out on the motives for the question.

@MrHen restoring my faith in humanity for a while. :)

@MrHen - And great people can ask stupid questions.

@phenry Yes. (Even I've asked stupid questions on ELU. :P)

what? never!

The point being, such a barrier to entry would be futile.

I've been asking questions on the site for three years. My current self things my older self was a numbskull. :P

@medica but if I recall there is an Indian expression, extremely vulgar, which described this situation, and the user wanted to know if there was an equivalent, more formal, in English. The fact that his English was weak, and the topic was unsavoury, doesn't mean that his question should not have been asked. Or does it?

Maybe there are boundaries of decency.

11:43 PM

@Mari-LouA No, there wasn't an Indian saying. The question was: a boy rapes his sister. What is a word sufficiently bad to call him? etc.

@Mari-LouA I think it is more important to address inappropriate posts than stand around blaming someone for posting inappropriate things. Only when a pattern emerges should the user really be addressed directly.

@Mari-LouA and worse yet, the next question was again about rape.

There was an Indian user who replied providing the slang term

I got to head out. Ping me if someone things of something interesting to respond to. :)

@Mari-LouA yep, in an answer, to which the user replied, "no, man, that's too bad!"

@MrHen bye!

11:44 PM

@MrHen, if you're sneakily trying to get me to vote for you, it's starting to work.

@medica yes!

Anyway, time for me to leave. thanks for the chat. x to all

bye @Mari-LouA @MrHen

@Mari-LouA bye! good to finally chat with you.

@medica ahh, I knew he must have said something nasty

I fully supported his suspension

@Mari-LouA yes, then his friend yelled at you

:-0

11:47 PM

funnily enough, a friend of his messaged me asking why I had suspended his friend

ahh, you caught that, did you?

@Mari-LouA yeah, I saw that! :-0

good night!

x

nite!

do we? I've never been prevented from removing anything

but then I don't try to delete much.

I suppose they want to limit people's ability to tamper with the record while still allowing for quick fixes.

I think it's cool that all of the chat transcripts from the beginning of time are available and can be searched.

@phenry that makes sense. or to prevent covering up of flame wars maybe?

11:52 PM

@medica - yeah, exactly.

One of my most serious concerns is that I won't have the computer prowess to get the jobs done in a timely manner.

I like to search for occurrences of other people mentioning me in chat. Keeps me humble.

It takes me forever to find links, to search.

Really?

@medica - you'll probably pick those skills up automatically as you need to use them.

:-) sorry.

lol. all these deletions.

11:59 PM

:16176077 - oh, I'm not thinking of anything particularly bad per se, just idle gossip.

actually, when I searched the chat transcripts for my name, I was surprised at how little there was, and how innocuous it mostly was.

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Jun '1419

EL&U 2014 Election

Open Discussion for english.stackexchange.com/election/3

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