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12:02 AM
There are things that make the site look better and things that make it look worse. Not that I expect everybody to agree on those. But I think we can all agree that such things, whatever they are, do exist.
There is an assumption in the SE module that closed questions will eventually be deleted (modulo dupes).
But I do not think this holds water.
 
@tchrist Most of what I want to do I could do as a normal user. I find it odd how many questions people are asking about things the mods don't really deal with on a day to day basis
 
Moreover, this is not pure conjecture; I have data.
 
@tchrist I can probably do that for you, actually.
 
It’s here.
Those sit there forever. Nobody ever deletes the seriously negative closed questions, and while there may be the odd exception, most should — assuming the assumption holds water, that closed questions get deleted. They don't.
I’ve worked my way through the last four pages of them, so 200 I guess, casting a delete vote where I didn't think it worth keeping, which was nearly always. But mine was always the only vote. Nobody else does that scut work.
On SO, this happens more regularly.
 
"I think I should leave this website. I got an answer to all my questions and the people welcome me with downvotes." – Archa 2 mins ago New user. english.stackexchange.com/questions/178690/…
 
12:08 AM
@tchrist I tried helping with this but found it too painful to keep at it. So I've moved on to other things that are more efficient.
 
I feel like having so many old closed negatively voted questions doesn’t help us look good.
@MrHen I can see that.
It’s like when I found 200 pejorative-language questions and their thousands of answers. Reading them all in a row really got me down.
 
is:question closed:1 I never knew of this queue.
 
@medica Users that make it a point to tell us they are leaving usually aren't here for the right reason anyway.
@tchrist Yeah. That's why I took on the Unanswered queue. It was quick and rather fulfilling.
 
@MrHen Not mourning her departure; see the reason. We should delete questions like this. It would cut down on the negativity, and quit making the site look like one for irrelevant questions.
 
(Okay, really leaving this time.)
 
12:12 AM
 
That's my point. How can I hunt them down if I have never been told how to?
I don't understand how I could have been given these tools (soon to expand to 25K) with no instruction about them. I could be doing much more.
8 mins ago, by tchrist
I feel like having so many old closed negatively voted questions doesn’t help us look good.
I agree completely.
 
12:55 AM
@medica The is no 25k expansion. There are 10, 15, and 20k levels.
 
@tchrist I was under the impression that at 20K. andwers could be deleted, but at 25K, closed questions could be deleted. My mistake is this is incorrect.
 
1:08 AM
This is an example of something we can do nothing about. No kindness will solve this:
I still find the down voting mean. I did what I wanted to do here, so good bye. — Archa 12 mins ago
 
2:02 AM
@medica People who come from a background of social networking sites where only upvoting is possible, never downvoting, and where topics can never be closed out as pointless but just drivel on in perpetuity, do not understand how SE works and therefore take extreme umbrage over the normal workings of things here. No, we are not going to be able to resolve that set of misexpectations.
On a programming site, if you give a wrong answer and get voted down for being a wrong/bad answer, it doesn't make young women want to go out and cut their wrists over it. Here, for some reason, I somethings almost think it does.
Yes, that’s ridiculous hyperbole, but the point stands that there is something different going on.
 
 
3 hours later…
5:02 AM
Yes, and this is one reason which can't be fixed that people will be dissatisfied with our site. It has nothing to do with unfriendliness, comments, or their reception. It is unfortunate.
 
 
3 hours later…
7:59 AM
@GraceNote could you please rename this room to something that doesn't look so much like the regular ELU room title because I, and a few others, keep getting fooled into coming in here instead :-)
Thank you.
 
 
2 hours later…
10:11 AM
@skullpatrol I second that request, and I think I can even do it myself with my chat mod powers. But what should it be changed to? «EL&U 2014 Elections» sound ok?
room topic changed to EL&U 2014 Election: Open Discussion for english.stackexchange.com/election/3 (no tags)
If anybody has another suggestion fire away.
 
@Caleb - this new name is fine, and all the links seem to be working correctly. There should be no confusion. FWIW, I was calling it the ELU Election Chat.
 
@Caleb Thank you :-)
 
@tchrist A query based on something like this might help...
SELECT Id AS [Post Link],Body,creationdate
FROM Posts
WHERE PostTypeID = 1 and len(Body)<150 and ClosedDate is NOT NULL
and closeddate > convert(datetime,'20140601')
 
 
2 hours later…
12:00 PM
Hi @YoichiOishi! How are you?
 
@YoichiOishi: are you going to try to answer the questionnaire for the mod elections?
We're all curious about your ideas on those things.
@YoichiOishi: the link to the questionnaire is:
16
Q: 2014 Moderator Election Q&A - Questionnaire

Grace NoteIn connection with the moderator elections, we are holding a Q&A thread for the candidates. Questions collected from an earlier thread have been compiled into this one, which shall now serve as the space for the candidates to provide their answers. It was decided that we would take the top 9 ques...

 
12:20 PM
@Mitch Yes, I made up my mind on two candidates already a week ago but I'm dithering on the third. I would very much like to read @YoichiOishi's thoughts. If I can manage to visit "chat" then anyone can. :)
Please, @YoichiOishi either visit chat or fill in the questionnaire. I'm a floater, you might be the one that tips the balance definitely.
To the candidates my two questions 1) Very often users (especially new ones) are mystified as to why their questions are downvoted in such a brief period of time. Many perceive this feature as being hostile and unfriendly, afterall they came to ELU in the hope of getting a response not to feel "ridiculed" or criticized.

What is your position/opinion on downvotes that are not accompanied by any comments? When would you intervene? How would you handle a newcomer who complains?
2) As a moderator is there anything you could do to encourage users (old and new) to provide more detailed and comprehensive questions and answers?

Related to the above; what is your opinion about edits? Are users doing enough to improve the legibility and quality of posts? What would be your policy or primary concern when faced with a post written in poor English?
(I imagine I'll get notified when these questions are answered, if someone hasn't already asked them
@phenry What main room? I came hoping to read some interesting stuff, but nada.
 

 English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer

Not for the faint of heart or those easily triggered by Englis...
 
12:36 PM
@Mari-LouA Hi, Mari-Lou!
 
@MattЭллен Charming, so bad questions are turds that need to be flushed down, and how would you feel if you read someone compared your question, which you might have laboured over (or not) but asked in all sincerity as being shit? This is why, I dislike chat. Back stabbing, nastiness, pompous attitude like yours and shogun which make newcomers feel they are somehow ridculed and not respected.
@medica hi :)
 
@Mari-LouA yes. bad questions are turds. that is my analogy.
 
@Mari-LouA I agree with you about the hard feelings of newcomers when they are down voted. I've started welcoming them again when I can also leave a constructive comment.
 
@MattЭллен You should be ashamed of yourself.
 
@Mari-LouA I am not. I am sure you are overreacting
 
12:39 PM
I bet you wouldn't dare tell a person to their face
 
However, even with comments, a downvote is rarely well received. First, I tend not to downvote newcomers.
 
No, I ma indignant and horrified
 
you seem to be confusing issues.
of course I would not tell someone upsetting to their face and I have not said anything about a specific person.
 
Bad questions exist, poorly constructed answers and questions also.
 
are you aware of the saying "you can't polish a turd"?
@Mari-LouA yes they do
 
12:41 PM
There is no need to compare them with turds/shit
yes, and I'm also aware of what a turd is.
 
so you know that the point of the saying is that you can't improve something that is inherently broken
 
Please, answer my two questions.
The first one is especially pertinent.
 
@Mari-LouA second, I usually comment if I am going to closevote, explaining why I'm doing so. But last night was a perfect example of how it doesn't work. I told the new user that her answer (on cursive writing - how to) was off topic for this site; I invited her to take a tour. I couldn't have been kinder. She was so offended, she wasn't amenable to any explanation, and said she was leaving, that we are unkind. There isn't anything to do in that situation. It will happen.
 
@Mari-LouA if the question has any merit I will tidy it up and tell the user not to worry about drive by down votes. if the question is good I will up vote it. If the question has no merit I will ignore them because they're not helping the site.
 
In three years and five months since I’ve joined this site, I’ve never casted down /close vote except 2 down votes I placed by mistake, because I believe everybody has the right to ask question about what he or she doesn’t know, or unfamiliar. We have an old adage – It’s a temporarily shame to ask question (about what you don’t know or unsure). It an eternal shame not to ask question (about what you don’t know or unsure). The thing what appears silly to you can be very important to others.
If you ask a question about the usage of Japanese language which seems to be very primitive to us, I
 
12:46 PM
@medica I saw that exchange, and I was mystified by the newcomer's reaction. I think she had two downvotes
 
I'm glad you saw it.
@Mari-LouA Did you think I was inappropriate with her?
 
very few, I can't recall with precision. But you are right, sometimes there is nothing we can do, people are sensitive and vulnerable. It's scary writing online, especially an English language site where your writing will be judged
It's intimidating, especially if you lack confidence
 
user116848
Hi everybody:)
 
user116848
I have a question
 
I agree, and it puts them in a vulnerable position.
@Arrowfar only if it's realted to elections here today, ok?
 
12:49 PM
@medica No, not at all. I think you're great! a huge bonus to the community
 
@Mari-LouA thank you.
 
@Mari-LouA I don't think there is anything I can do by myself in general to improve a post's initial quality. people will post as they please. if they want to fit in and gain rep they will improve. If they don't they won't. After the initial posting I often post comments requesting clarification. I downvote thing that are not good and up vote things that are. this is all the encouragement I can provide. I also edit posts into shape where I know how.
 
user116848
@medica So medica what are your chances of getting elected
 
@Arrowfar Not too good, I imagine. :)
 
user116848
haha Well I hope you win:D
 
12:51 PM
@Arrowfar but the important thing is to go for it.
thank you. I hope so too.
 
user116848
@medica Yeah exactly.
 
@YoichiOishi That is what I call RESPECT. But... I have downvoted my share of intrinsically bad lazy questions, not that many mind you. Sometimes, despite the helpful tips, comments users will blithely ignore advice. In those cases, a downvote is the only available course of "action"
 
@Arrowfar I need to answer some questions from MariLou; she's been waiting for a while, is that OK?
 
@Matt 3nneH / Mitch. Did you read my comment in response to your calls.
 
@YoichiOishi yes! thank you very much for taking the time.
 
user116848
12:54 PM
@medica Yeah sure
 
@Mari-LouA Regarding edits first: No, I don't think we are doing enough edits. I haven't done many myself; I feel intimidated messing with a poster's questions. But I don't know how to increase the number of users editing. I can only bring it up in meta, and not everyone reads meta. I think the reality is that mods can only do so much. The community needs to act as a whole to effect change, yet that can't be forced.
 
@YoichiOishi @MattЭллен @medica see question 1) When would you intervene? How would you handle a newcomer who complains (about anonymous downvotes)?
 
@Matt 3nneH. I've never joined chat, because I'm very slow in typing, and can't reel out English so smoothly as you all. This is the first time I joined chat.
 
@Mari-LouA Again, all I personally can do is to leave comments asking for more information.
 
Well done @YoichiOishi, I am so pleased :)
 
12:58 PM
@Mari-LouA I try to reason with them. I tell them a downvote is a comment on the quetion/answer, not on the user. I will do whatever I can. Honestly, it's worked sometimes, but most times it doesn't.
 
@medica I agree with this approach, people can be touchy but they can be surprisingly receptive too.
 
@YoichiOishi I am glad that you have. You have an interesting perspective on how EL&U works. I certainly apprecieate being able to see things from your point of view.
 
@Mari-LouA I agree. I've been surprised by how many new users will ask to be migrated to ELL after an explanatory comment. But this is not the majority, It's a minority. It's not uncommon for a new user to get angry or hurt. As a mod, I would offer to chat in a private room with them. But... I can't force someone to see reason. That's as far as I can go.
 
> What is your position/opinion on downvotes that are not accompanied by any comments? When would you intervene? How would you handle a newcomer who complains?

(A) One cannot legislate for others on something like this: the system allows anonymous voting. I would **prefer** that initial posts are guided on to the right path if possible, or are let down reasonably gently, and my own practice has become mellower over time.
(B) One can't **intervene**; by the time the vote is cast, it's too late.
Hmm. That seems to have screwed up the quoting.
 
yeah, multiline chat messages allow 0 formatting
 
1:01 PM
@MattЭллен You said: " if they want to fit in and gain rep they will improve" but how many are really motivated by gaining rep points? I think their main motivation is receiving a clear authoritative answer. I'm not talking about the homework and proofreading questions, they should never be answered IMHO
 
@Mari-LouA OK. What kind of question are you talking about? Are there example you can point to?
 
@YoichiOishi Yes, nice... can you edit and add that to a post on the election page? That way everybody else who's voting in the elections can see it easily.
 
`@Mari-Lou A. I will encourage ill-treated new comer by telling my experience with good-heart, and tell them that this site is worth while living, studying together encircled by good-hearted and helpful peers and many pundit like FumbleFingers and Robosto-san, J.R. Mitch and you
 
user116848
I am in the other room can anyone answer me there?
 
@Mari-LouA One last thought. If the down-voted necwomer was being too angry in comments, I would delete the comment thread (whatever was offensive noise) and ask him to come to chat.
 
1:06 PM
This is not a great example but it's typical of a user who can't explain what the problem is english.stackexchange.com/questions/178716/overrun-and-runover
In those cases, perhaps greater patience is needed before voting to close. Do we know if the user was still online when users asked for clarification?
 
@Mari-LouA Mari-Lou, may I turn the tables on you for a moment? How would you discourage users from answering questions (like proofreading and homework)?
 
I ain't a candidate! :)
 
I agree with your comment on that question, but I do not think that this question is right for us. it's asking simply the difference between overrun and run over. it is GR. My way of dealnig with GR is to leave links to dictionary entries and voting to close. They will be far better served by learning to use a dictionary than by continually asking us to look things up in a dictionary.
 
But if I were, I'd leave a message to those users explaining why their intentions are good, they are harming the site.
 
@Mari-LouA It's just to put you in a mod's position. There isn't much a mod can do to control individual users. Maybe sent them a message by email, but a lot of users would be offended by being told what they should or shouldn't do.
 
1:10 PM
J.R left a perfect response to a user who asked why the community refuses to do proofread
It's on the question collection page
 
J.R. is very articulate
 
Might be a candidate for a revised Help text, perhaps.
 
It received 9 upvotes and I thought he explained it well, politely and with tact
 
@Mari-LouA regarding that (good) example, if I were a mod, I would have migrated it to ELL. But it really isn't a good question, and it had a perfectly good answer before I voted to close.
@Mari-LouA yes, he did. He said it would encourage a rash of similar requests.
 
I said it was not the best example, but it's typical for EL&U
@AndrewLeach Could well be. As much as I sympathise with a learner, it's plain common sense that proofreading questions are offtopic
 
1:14 PM
@Mari-LouA Is there anything I haven't answered or that you'd like to follow up on with me?
 
Maybe it's a cultural divide?
 
I'm in favour of explaining "We don't do X because..." in the Help text.
Tim Lymington's recent comment was also useful.
This question appears to be off-topic because it is about one particular example, where only the songwriter knows what was meant (if indeed there was only one clear meaning intended, which is rare in lyrics and poetry). This is not a phrase in common use. — TimLymington 1 hour ago
 
@MattЭллен but was he really asking the difference? He asked, which is correct?
 
@Mari-LouA (btw, phenry, MrHen, shog9 and I were throwing around ideas about how to make commenting easier with a menu of answers to pick from, more or less.)
 
That's not a dictionary reference, not strictly
 
1:17 PM
@medica Isn't there a Stack Script or whatever it's called to help with boilerplating? (Greasemonkey for Stack Exchange)
 
@AndrewLeach Andrew, you need to know that I'm programmer illiterate. I hardly understand a word of what you asked me!
 
@AndrewLeach 2) As a moderator is there anything you could do to encourage users (old and new) to provide more detailed and comprehensive questions and answers?

Related to the above; what is your opinion about edits? Are users doing enough to improve the legibility and quality of posts? What would be your policy or primary concern when faced with a post written in poor English?
 
@Mari-LouA true. he also asks which to use when, which I seem to have fixated on. If he clears up his question then maybe it will be good, but as it stands it's still GR.
but mostly it's unclear
which is what we've voted.
 
@Mari-LouA My primary concern is to understand it! To that end, I generally comment "Do you mean ... or ...", using words in a different order (and possibly different words) from those used in the question.
 
user116848
To 'acknowledge' here on chat whats some best words to use so the other person doesn't think that I am done asking??
 
1:21 PM
don't stop typing until you've finished asking your question?
what do you mean?
 
@Mari-LouA Using comments to request clarification is the only thing we can do to steer users in the right direction (including adding that the answer should be an edit to the question, not another comment).
 
@Arrowfar ? I'm sorry, I didn't catch the first part of that. What was your question?
 
TYPO: I'd leave a message to those users explaining WHILE their intentions are good, they are ultimately harming the site
 
user116848
I mean while acknowledging like 'Nod' , 'Hmm', 'huh' ...
 
@Mari-LouA Once a question is understood, it can be fixed. I've done this on a number of occasions.
 
1:23 PM
@Arrowfar you don't need to do that in chat. If there's a lot going on, just remember to ping the person when you do answer.
 
user116848
@medica okay..
 
user116848
Like this? :D
 
user116848
@medica Okay thanks :p
 
@MattЭллен @medica this question english.stackexchange.com/questions/178716/overrun-and-runover was closed because it was considered general reference, not because it was unclear.
 
Hullo. I see I have a lot of transcript to catch up on.
 
user116848
1:27 PM
Hello
 
So have we all decided to vote for @Matt?
Oh Medica's here too.
Oh, and @Andrew, you're a candidate as well, aren't you?
We should do something to note the candidates in the room.
Oh! I have an idea.
brb
 
Yoichi Oishi was also here
 
@Mari-LouA my mistake. I guess I was cranky this morning.
 
It happens to the best of us :)
 
Did I get everybody?
 
@KitFox Nine is right.
What has it done?
 
OK.
The names of moderator candidates will appear in italics in this room.
2
 
1:34 PM
@KitFox I hope the newcomers realize that that is what they should do.
 
Recently, I wrote a question on meta asking about the suspension of a newcomer after only two days of activity. I would like to hear the candidate's thoughts on this matter. meta.english.stackexchange.com/questions/4788/…
Yes, you did, as did Mr Hen
but not the others
 
@Mari-LouA I thought (frankly) that her questions were not very good, and that there must have been some moderating done behind the scenes.
 
It was all automatic (based on voting by non-mods)
 
> The odds of moderators contacting you with a warning first will be in direct proportion to how much evidence you’ve given us that you are, in fact, a potentially valuable and contributing member of the community.
There's your answer, right there.
I mean, insofar as any details are shared publicly, that ought to be your first assumption.
 
@KitFox TWO days, how on earth could she have been considered a valuable contributor in such a brief space of time?
Was she given a chance?
 
1:39 PM
She was given as much a chance as everyone else.
It was just a suspension.
She wasn't banned for life.
The suspension notice gives instructions on where to find resources and how to learn about using the site.
 
@KitFox - what will owner/moderator candidates be able to do in this room and how? For instance, can we rig voting? (j/k) If not, can we delete noise comments, e.g. people who stumbled in here by accident and posted non-election related stuff?
 
After two days of activity, I defy anyone not to be insulted or hurt by such an action. If the suspension had been a day, maybe, but 7?
 
@KitFox so little warning = probably not valuable?
 
When a user posts a flood of questions that are immediately closed or deleted, it is prudent to arrest the behavior immediately, point them to the instructions, and give them time to read them before they are allowed to post again.
@Mitch Yes.
 
@KitFox That's fair.
 
1:42 PM
@medica I don't think owners can do anything except make other people owners and change the room name and tags and things.
 
:(
 
@Mari-LouA Not to be insensitive but.. OK I will be insensitive... the design of the technology, ayto-suspending, is intended to produce a biochemical response in the new person corresponding to what they might call in their IRL culture 'shame', which would encourage change in behavior more in line with the ELU culture.
 
@KitFox A flood of questions? Eleven questions, two I think were closed. Several on hold but the majority were open and one or two had attracted a lot of positive attention.
 
@KitFox I've never gotten any contact ... gets very nervous
 
@Mitch ...or SE culture in general.
 
1:43 PM
@Mari-LouA ergo trollish
 
@Mari-LouA I don't know why they were suspended. If there had been a lot of flags that could explain it. One of the questions was not a question, but I don't see what would have been the cause. I won't it was wrong to suspend the user because I don't know the circumstances, but I can't see an evidence right now.
 
@Mitch I have
and it was helpful
and that is why I ask: did she get a chance?
 
@Mari-LouA I don't think anyone is able to answer that in any more detail than appears in your meta question.
 
@Mari-LouA her chance was that she was temporarily suspended, as opposed to permanently banned. time to read the FAQs instead of posting blindly some more.
 
I think that's so cynical, she's just a kid
 
1:46 PM
@Mari-LouA Your figures are wrong.
 
and she was not rude, and she edited her questions when I asked.
 
@Mari-LouA Bear in mind that none of the candidates is likely to publicly gainsay any moderator's decision.
 
I would like your thoughts. It appears I am in the overwhelming minority, you have all been assimilated by SE ;)
 
user116848
So guys did you hear the joke janitor moderator
 
user116848
:) lol
 
1:49 PM
@KitFox The figures I posted on the meta question were accurate, not taking in consideration that I deliberately chose not to reveal the split votes
because not everyone has that "privilege"
 
your figures are based on what you can see. if there are a ton of deleted questions, then they will be a bit short
 
@Mari-LouA What @Matt said.
You aren't reporting her deleted questions, for instance.
 
@MattЭллен I can see if she had a ton of deleted questions, I am capable of finding them
in two days it doesn't take much scrolling
 
@Mari-LouA "resistance is futile" - borg
 
1:51 PM
:P Yeah, I'm realizing that
 
user116848
Bye guys I am bored with the election talk
 
Then you will know she had 17 questions, 8 of them were deleted and 5 were closed. "The majority were open" is patently false.
 
Bye @Arrowfar
@KitFox OK, I didn't know that. I'm sure I checked. Aren't deleted questions visible to 10.000+ reps
 
user116848
@Mari-LouA See ya all ciao
 
@Arrowfar Bye. Don't forget to vote :-)
 
1:52 PM
@Mari-LouA Then if you would kindly not claim it...
 
user116848
@AndrewLeach Sure :)
 
@Mari-LouA Sort of.
 
@KitFox ahh.. that's not exactly a straight answer.
 
@Mari-LouA It seems they are in your flag records if you flagged them. I haven't found any other record (but I haven't tried the Data Explorer).
 
@Mari-LouA You can see them if you have the link. Mods can see them without a link.
Which is why I am not entirely sure if it is OK for me to tell you her total.
 
1:56 PM
@Mari-LouA I am at 24K and I can't see all the deleted questions.
 
@KitFox Ah. So a record of everything sent out via the RSS feed is useful.
 
You can see them, you just can't see them unless they are revealed to you.
You can't see them in the lists, or via searching.
@AndrewLeach Yes.
 
@KitFox that would explain it
 
@KitFox that sounds like I should incant a spell or something!
 
they must have got closed and deleted real fast
 
1:58 PM
Well, I don't think you can. You can try it, using deleted:1.
 
and nobody must have answered those questions either
@KitFox that is goobledogeekness to me
 

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