LET'S BOOGIE!

OK!

Welcome to the DBA SE Town Hall Chat

We're just here to get to know the candidates and ask questions regarding the candidates views on moderation that may help in voting.

A few notes about the format:

The format is open, feel free to ask your question(s) unprompted, however please be mindful of whether or not candidates have answered the previous questions so that they don't get behind and start missing questions. Other than that, feel free to jump in.

Candidates, please use the reply feature so that questions and their answers are linked together. (Hover your mouse over the left of the message, click the down arrow, click reply)

When a question is asked, I'll star it - please star it yourself also to help! Please save stars for the questions so that candidates can refer to the star list to make sure they haven't missed a question.

We will be creating a digest version of the town hall chat after it is completed. This digest will take the form of a question on meta, containing all the questions asked as well as their answers for easier reading.

There's a system message up on the site, so we may get some stragglers joining us.

The candidates I see here are: @JNK, @ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells, and @NickChammas.

y'all read fast? (;

I don't think you actually typed all that

to be perfectly honest

It also helps if you bold your text **bold** of your question to make it pop on the transcript, but if you're starring it, that's not necessarily a necessity.

With that, I think I've got all my initial messages, so I open the floor to y'all. Who has a question to start us off? (:

@RebeccaChernoff Yep, I believe Eric nominated himself in case more than one mod was needed. Since that's not the case, he may not show.

What is one thing that you think has been mishandled in the site thus far that you think you can contribute strongly to help correct?

@JNK );

I did type it. Just...not tonight (;

idk, she's fast, something like 130 wpm. I hope you challenge her.

lol

How do you think problem users are best informed of their transgressions? (extra knowledge, there's a system message function, and some other tools, so don't grasp too hard at straws, basic concepts only)

@jcolebrand I'm not sure that I think anything has been necessarily mishandled. I do think that we can do a better job of encouraging migrations from SO. I'm pretty active with flagging those that fit better on DBA and being able to communicate directly with the other mods in real time would certainly help with that.

What are your thoughts on the current logo? (not all questions should be hard)

@jcolebrand Taking a quick look at our meta, I cannot remember any such issues. We had one issue with migrations, but that was handled well by the current mods.

@jcolebrand I think responding with system message is probably best. You don't encourage anyone to change their behavior necessarily by calling them out in public - normally it makes them defensive and they dig their heels in.

@jcolebrand Love it. Simple & stylish.

@jcolebrand I like it but it's not really clear when it's icon-sized. It looks like a blue dot basically.

@jcolebrand I think the site could do a better job of making it explicit that database development questions are considered in topic. This has some importance from the perspective of including B.I. content on the site. However, the FAQ does mention development.

What ... is your favorite color?

What ... is your name?

@jcolebrand Blue, no yelowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

@jcolebrand Notification via the message, invitation to discuss in a chat room and then sanctions if they're willfully ignorant or anti-social. If they're genuinely struggling to articulate a real question, I'm not above stepping in and doing some editorial work on the question to clarify it.

Some people are just 'first language C'

(I reserve the right not to include questions in the digest. :P)

New users often are not accustomed to the Stack Exchange system, and sometimes struggle to present themselves properly, either in the way they use the site or their attitude. How willing are you to work with "problematic" users, and at what point do you decide that someone isn't worth the effort?

@TimStone I said not everything had to be serious :p

I just figure we need QUESTIONS so I was digging. I asked two hard ones and one light one.

@jcolebrand Not much. It's a bit bland, but I haven't really put any thought into the visual style of the site. Iconography for an abstract concept like a database isn't a trivial graphic design challenge.

@jcolebrand It depends on the severity of the issue and the history you've had with that user. At the start, generic comments on the problem post should be OK. Those are usually to the effect of "I see what you're saying; be civil." If it's an issue of policy (disagreement, challenges, etc.), a meta discussion may be appropriate. Otherwise, system messages and eventual suspension are necessary.

@jcolebrand Maroon or deep metallic greens.

@jcolebrand Nigel Campbell.

@TimStone I'm more willing to spend the effort on DBA than I am on SO. For example today I spent around an hour helping a user figure out exactly what he wanted to ask, then told him to accept someone else's answer. I think if after a few attempts at reason, and making sure they understand your intent, it's OK to not bend over backwards. This is a site for professionals and enthusiasts and we need to treat everyone like adults.

@TimStone I've attempted to coach users in the past, with mixed success. Sometimes a user is inarticulate but has a genuine question. At some point it will be obvious that the user isn't even trying - normally you can tell that because they just don't seem to be changing their habits.

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells I wouldn't phrase it as a "mishandled issue", but I totally agree, especially with the problems I've noted and the now expanded scope of the site to include BI. We need people to be aware that we do lots of stuff that they may not immediately associate with the term "DBA".

What events do you think Database Administrators needs to attach itself to going forward, similar to how the Gaming site is participating in new game launches?

@jcolebrand Purple.

@jcolebrand SQL in the sun :D

We have a cabal here in the UK, so maybe we should organise some drink^H^H^H^H^Hconference events somewhere here. I'm sure it wouldn't necessarily be too hard to induce some of our colleagues from across the Atlantic to pop across as well. Not thinking of anyone in particular @AaronBertrand :)

@jcolebrand Product launches, i.e. SQL Server 2012. Also events like SQL Saturday (guest bloggers?), PASS, etc. I actually thought of DBA when I saw the post on meta.SO about attending events, since there are so many events for DBAs.

Two highly respected members of the community get in a comment war on a question. They both flag each other's comments and are cussing and it is clear that this is beyond a heated argument. What do you do, what don't you do?

What direction do you think the Database Administrators BlogOverflow blog needs to take? How do you see yourself helping to fulfill those needs? (Yes, we have a blog, we need to launch it like a rocket and get it off the ground! :D)

don't forget to give them time to answer (;

@TimStone Delete the comments, and post one myself along the lines of "Please keep all comments on topic. Everyone participating here has been around long enough to know better." If it happens again, lock the post and try to pull them into chat.

@jcolebrand yes, you do need to launch it! hurry up! q:

@RebeccaChernoff pffft, these are mods. If they don't have the userscripts installed ... :p

@RebeccaChernoff I know >.<

^^ @TimStone don't include that reply to a question (;

@jcolebrand I've already signed up to write posts, WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT? But seriously, I think we could encourage notables like Aaron Bertrand, Alex K, Remus, (sorry I don't know any non-SQL Server notables!) to contribute as well.

plz :P

@TimStone Mainly drag them off into a chat and tell them 'time out', requesting they delete the inflammatory comments. Concepts like 'you're a community leader - behave like one' may be appropriate or not.

@TimStone I'd provide comments to the user, edits to the post where appropriate, and links to the relevant meta discussions with a summary of what they say. I've done this in the past and I think our mods have done a good job of this so far. After a few exchanges it will be obvious that the user is not getting it or does not want to get it, and that's when it's time to ignore the user or suspend their account (depending on their behavior).

@jcolebrand actually, you shouldn't worry about launching yet, because you don't have users and posts added (; </tangent>

blah blah blah (-;

What do you think will be the biggest challenges facing the site in the coming year or so? Do you forsee growing pains, like lack of growth or difficulty attracting/retaining quality users? Something else?

@TimStone And I've seen the technique I mentioned work a lot on SO. Will is a pro at that.

@jcolebrand I'm not familiar with what Gaming has done, but I can venture some possibilities for this: Product launches and conferences.

@RebeccaChernoff <supertangent> My account name is timestone on the Gaming blog, I kid you not. |: </supertangent>

lmao

@TimStone Optimistically I think we will start having more "big site" issues with new users and quality posts. I think as the awareness of the site increases we will get more and deeper questions, as well a lot of shallow newbie type questions of varying quality. From what I can tell experts like our site a lot, so more folks will be coming.

The basic strategy I'd like to do is to make DBA.SE (and the SE network in general) into the best reference site possible.

idk @rchern I kinda ran outta steam :p

canned Q to the rescue!

@TimStone If it's gotten to the point of cussing, with the agreement of other mods (if they're available), I immediately lock the posts in question and invite the belligerents to a private discussion to sort things out like people do. If that fails, it's stern messages and then the penalty box for both. What I don't do is let the issue escalate or spill over into other posts or areas of the site.

Is there an example you can describe/point-to that shows you taking initiative or showing leadership on the site in past actions?

@TimStone I think DBA.SE hasn't quite crossed the chasm yet. The posting rate hasn't really been growing much as far as I understand. A lot of content is still being posted onto Stackoverflow. I would like to see a more proactive policy of moving on-topic material to DBA.SE, so maybe users would get the hint.

@jcolebrand @TimStone is asking my canned questions!

(I've got the Skeptics digest open :P)

@TimStone The B.I. merger - I made the original Area51 proposal and approached @JackDouglas et. al about merging it into the scope of DBA.SE.

@TimStone I was partially responsible for the Great Migration of 2012 (which met with mixed success) of pulling over on-topic Qs from SO. I got called out by Shog9 for that, but at least I tried. I've also been really active (along with CoTW and GBN) in updating tag information.

@jcolebrand 3 areas: Best practices, How to guides, and Frequently Asked Questions (which we, as a Q&A site, are uniquely familiar with). Basically, big topics with broad relevance.

Speaking of tags...

Do you tend to live inside a (set of) tag(s) or do you interact with the site as a whole?

@TimStone I have the 'generalist' badge on SO. 'Nuff said. :)

@TimStone I answer mostly SQL Server related tags, but I read almost all the questions.

Why do you want to be a moderator (ie, as opposed to a user with privs via high rep?)

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells Stack Overflow? Never heard of it. This is Database Administrators, welcome to the new party ;-)

@TimStone There will be continued but decreasing friction from migrations. I'm worried about low answer rates in tag sections that are unpopular with our answerers but popular to the average web user. For example, I feel we don't have enough answering activity on the oracle and sybase tags, but that's just an off-the-cuff perception.

@jcolebrand Oh, it's just some Q&A site on the internet.

@TimStone See my meta questions: Tag cleanup. Site rename. Flagging policy.

@RebeccaChernoff You can do more and have higher visibility as a mod. I think there's a lot of cross-site cooperation that could be done, and as I mentioned in a previous answer soliciting high profile experts to contribute which is better done as an official representative of the site.

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells It's the QA forum thingy right?

@TimStone Site as a whole. I'm not subscribed to any tags, and I haven't ignored any either. I pretty much read (and usually, then edit) everything.

When you see a question with major issues (poorly-written, argumentative, no indication of relevance to a notable claim, etc.), what tool do you reach for first?

@RebeccaChernoff Originally I suggested I could act as a moderator as 'B.I. wonk in residence.' on a pro-tem basis to help with the merger. At this point I think that I can do this just as well as a 10K+ rep user, and I'll probably reach that within the next few months, Mainly I'm interested in making DBA.SE into the database world's answer to that other S&A site (stack something was it?) for much the same reasons that Joel and Jeff wanted to start Stackoverflow.

@TimStone Normally I start with a comment. If there's no clarification forthcoming then I VTC. Obviously as a mod I would wait a little longer on closing since it's immediate.

Also @TimStone I think that was recycled from Skeptics :)

@TimStone A comment on the question, maybe directly intervening and editing the question, asking the user into chat to try and get them to clarify what their problem is. Then the user-moderation - VTC, flagging etc.

We don't normally care much about notable claims here...

@RebeccaChernoff My participation stats (visible on the election page) compared to my rep show that I do moderator-type stuff on here about as much as I ask and answer questions. Being a mod will make that easier for me.

@JNK Whoops, heh. Yes...epic fail. Just assume that it means that someone is making wild "Database X does this so much better than Database Y, why?" when there's nothing to suggest that's true...maybe? >_> <_<

@NickChammas I was about to prompt you about that. Can you tell us something about your motivations in this - you're a prolific user-moderator, and I think you will probably get through a large chunk of mod workload. Could you elaborate on your perspective on this?

@TimStone I knew what you meant, just wanted to bust your chops :)

@TimStone That's pretty much fanboi-ism in DBA.SE circles, and would earn a persistent user a kicking or a VTC or 3 at least.,

My DB > your DB would put the poster pretty clearly into subjective or NARQ territory in most cases, at least without an objective backing of the merits of the claim.

@TimStone fail >_<

@TimStone First, I edit to improve the clarity, conformance to site standards, and English of the post. Then I comment to request additional information if I know what the user is talking about.

@RebeccaChernoff /blame multitasking

@TimStone You're a bloke. You shouldn't even be attempting to multitask :)

@TimStone mm, no thanks. I blame you.

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells There's my problem. I shall go get a beer instead. :P

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells My motivation is that it's fun and that I've attached a personal sense of accomplishment to the performance of the site and the quality of the community and its output.

@TimStone Sounds like a jolly fine idea.

I'm having one now!

@NickChammas Just don't burn out. We like it this way :)

As a moderator you may well bump into shit-heads. Don't take it personally; they are the ones with the issues, not you.

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells I'm sure, like all aspects of human nature, I'll go through phases where I do much more or less than average.

@NickChammas Nobody's expecting you to do it 24/7. Your stats speak for themselves. We're quite happy to let you take a break :)

we've got about 15 minutes left, just fyi (:

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells Yeah, it will be a learning experience, as I'm sure @JackDouglas and @jcolebrand can relate. I liked how Jack handled the Turtle post (meta follow-up), for example, and I had to make an effort to stay out of it. :)

@RebeccaChernoff There aren't many people in the room who aren't directly involved in the THC. :/

Most of our most active users that aren't running are in Europe I think

@NickChammas I think the policy to take with that user is 'do not feed the trolls', although I think the question was actually asked in good faith.

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells well, since the room is dedicated to the THC, that's probably ok (;

How much time to you expect to dedicate towards being a moderator? Do you feel like this will impact your participation on the site as a normal user, and do you worry about finding the right balance between the two to keep things enjoyable?

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells The question was asked in good faith, and was new territory for us, and I feel he looked to provoke a discussion, but not on our terms. Especially once I learned of the answer. I, however, stand by my decision. I think that internal political answers should be answered from internal orgs. That's not for a THC however, so I think we're done with that topic ;-)

@TimStone No worries about balance for me, as I already spend more time day-to-day editing, flagging, and posting on meta.

@TimStone Probably 2-3 hours a day. I think it will affect my participation on SO more than on DBA. Our current question volume is low enough that I can read all the questions with no issue.

@jcolebrand one more thing about that Q - I really enjoyed that it was a question about a logo of a turtle

@TimStone Currently we don't have a large volume of questions, so I suspect about 5-10 hours per week. I tend to make large posts but less frequently.

Do you feel like a representative percentage of the community participates in your site's meta? Based on that, how strongly do you think feedback presented on meta should factor into your decision making as a moderator?

@TimStone I think Meta could be a lot more active. I don't think we have a representative set on there, but it's the people that care the most. However, I think it would be good to have a more diverse set of opinions there. Having said that, since the people participating on meta are by definition the most active and involved, their input needs to be considered seriously. The people that post on meta are the people that will grow the site.

we've got about 5 minutes left, anyone have a final question?

@TimStone I look at this list and note all the users above Shog9 in participation. As a rough measure, this tells me we have a small but important number of people actively participating on meta. As the system of record for discussions about the site, there is no alternative to using the feedback on there in my moderating activities.

What I can do is encourage people in comments and in chat to say their piece on meta so it's on the record and their vote is counted.

@RebeccaChernoff Nope.

okies (:

Final thoughts from the candidates please?

That is single-handedly the best final thought I have ever seen.

Thank you.

@RebeccaChernoff I think we have an important time ahead of us for the growth of the site and the community. The good news is, I think any of the three of us would do a great job. The bad news is, I would do a better job than those other guys. But seriously, I think this is important and that this site could get a LOT bigger in the next year.

oy

Thanks everybody!

Alrighty then!

Thanks everyone for participating, and of course best of luck to the candidates!

Wait for @ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells.

@NickChammas can still reply, of course!

Yeah, I'm sure he's typing a novel right now

lol

A digest of the town hall will be posted to meta sometime tomorrow.

If you missed a question (or couldn't attend), absolutely reply now or tomorrow morning and your responses will be included in the digest.

@RebeccaChernoff If I wasn't standing I would say @NickChammas's stats indicates he would get through a decent volume of moderation work. Actually I am standing and I'd still stand by that. For my money he's the stand-out candidate on that basis.

Night all, see you heap folks tomorrow

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells Thank you.

@NickChammas Well, if you get elected I can stick to writing blog posts and long winded answers (and talking shite on the heap :)

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells That works well for me and for the site.

Including the shite.