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#ThingsThatDontHappenWithMVVM

well it can, except you know to look at the bindings

hm should a binding set the MultiLine flag of a TextBox control?

#TIL it's called pilcrow. I've been calling it the paragraph symbol as long as I can remember.

I read pill+crow

.BindPropertyPath viewmodel, "Instructions", Sheet1.Chart2, "Chart.ChartTitle.Text"

maybe this will get the Excel folks on board

sucks that the text content of a Shape needs involves a method call... hey wait a minute...

.BindPropertyPath viewmodel, "Instructions", Sheet1.Shapes("Shape1").TextFrame.Characters, "Text"

works!

just need to remove the few places where a Debug.Print statement assumes the Target object has a Name, and it'll be golden

bwahahaha this is crazy

665 followers 😈

@this considering the number of t-shirt, shorts & flip-flop wearing sport bike riders I see, JS must be pretty popular!

and, just for fun, I've got a visible Access window that won't exit. I click the X, it blinks away, then comes right back.

One Access process, with continuously changing (generally increasing) memory usage, but 0 CPU usage.

kills with fire from orbit

you probably have an object that's held on and thus can't die.

example: you have a reference to your startup form in a standard module's module-level variable.

nuked from orbit, it's gone.

honest question: why is it nuking from orbit somehow more "better" than nuking it from anywhere else?

Nuking it from your basement might have undesirable side-effects?

^ what he said...

obviously you don't want to be there

but there are missile silos for the purpose of launching missiles, you know?

fine. nuke if from a silo in Nebraska

LOIC is just better (and usually leaves your machine standing)

LOIC?

ah

But I don't want to stress test it, I just want it dead.

just make it fail the stress test. That would usually leave it dead, right?

can you stress test Access that way?

inclined to say no

but i just learnt what LOIC was so.... what do I know

yeah, me too. I don't think it really takes a DDOS attack to bring down an Access DB. Though 2 concurrent users are usually sufficient, and I suppose you'd call that "Distributed". Often times just a single user is enough to DOS it.

anyway... back to figuring out why the heck my process seems to work somewhat randomly... :/

and somewhat randomly only partially works. :( :(

@FreeMan at my first job we ran an asp-classic web application for the whole company off of a single access db and every pageload usually opened it's own connection with a sharedRead lock

I'm so sorry...

anyone seen the 500 page from GH?

it's kind of cool

@this FYI someone (Omar Zini) is trying to comment on your WP article (reached out to me via linkedin)

@MathieuGuindon I’m really curious to read your latest post. Hopefully I have time for it today.

:+1:

@IvenBach can't wait for your feedback!

thanks will have a look

So you’ve succeeded In doing MVVM in VBA?

digitalocean.com/community/tech_talks/…

^ might be worth a mention for possible new contributing ducks.

[rubberduck-vba/Rubberduck] bclothier created wiki page COM in plain C

[rubberduck-vba/Rubberduck] bclothier edited wiki page _Sidebar

@MathieuGuindon wp says I'm blocked as a security precaution?

I don't get no respect </rodneydangerfield>

How difficult would it be to have the room auto-star the latest RD article?

@MathieuGuindon fixed the "security precaution" but I can't find Omar's comments?

sigh why do VS + IIS have to be so dumb with SSL

@IvenBach rooms can't star things, needs a bot account. @Duga, for example =)

Duga the StarBringer

lol

[rubberduck-vba/examples] yasensimeonov starred us

Your call has been answered. Another star, of a different kind.

@IvenBach By the examples, I have the star!

#overreachingabit

He-Dude reference?

yeah, lol

Have I ever mentioned how flawed the Net Promoter Score is and how much I hate it?

>:(

@FreeMan seriously flawed

so stop promoting it then?

lolololol

@this If only I could... Every now and then I get asked why our scores are low or slipping. Since we don't get much in the way of negative feedback in the free-form comments explaining the negative feeling, the only answers I can give are A) Math sucks - get more surveys filled out and the 1 or 2 detractors will disappear as noise, and B) the scoring algorithm sucks and is heavily weighted toward failure

Order by those with the highest score.

Flipping through the first few reveals "We're doing a wonderful job. Carry on."

if only it were that easy. I've got to go through the comments we do get and call out the negative sounding ones to highlight in the email that goes out to the universe of bigwigs who care about stupid numbers.

nobody's interested in a random sampling of good comments...

let me introduce you to this wonderful, marvelous piece of technology that will save your sanity and simplify your life

who knows, maybe you'll get the bigwigs to game it like that guy IvenBach linked to playing Dragon Warrior something in only 10 minutes or whatever it was

@this Now THAT is an idea!

Even my wife LOL'd

hey, i'm all that. :)

fetches a bag o' chips for @this

lol

Sub 30mins while narrating is mindblowing head asploding.

watching the video without audio, it did looked weird that he was doing stuff like entering invalid command prompts several times but when I got to the transcript, it made sense why he did that.

@MathieuGuindon still trying to digest that last blog post. It looks like you created an MVVM framework for a (series of?) blog post(s) If so... (a) Mad kudos and (b) It probably transcends its original purpose. I can see it being at a minimum it's own GH project, and a great candidate for Nuggets.

Nuggets kinda nerd-sniped itself, with talk of updates and dependency management. Perhaps there's still value in a smaller subset... Maybe start by only allowing nuggets on fresh projects, with no dependencies and no updates. It would still have benefit by allowing an in-IDE gallery of curated "library" code to get people started.

@Vogel612 That must have been... unpleasant.

@mansellan 'twas pretty okay, actually. Mostly because nobody expected us to be remotely professional with that thing

@mansellan the problem is how to package so that it works for any host.

the worst story I have from that time is accidentally nuking the test system database and fixing the "fax a pdf" system

@Vogel612 rofl

if it's Excel, you could ship it as a XLAM, but you can't use it in Access or Word.

@this I was thinking more about shipping VBA source code, then using the RD module import to pull it into the host document.

Could tag nuggets with the host(s) they work in

@mansellan like... you can't put ~6 minimally supervised beginner programmers onto a single application and expect them to get you professional results.

I mean .. you can do that, but then your expectations are not going to be met :D

@Vogel612 That says more about management than the devs

IMHO, nuggets went off the radar when we tried to spec "perfect". Maybe we should try and find the MVP instead?

@mansellan yeah this would be a simpler way. The ugly thing is that if you import into project directly, there is a non-zero chance of naming collision

if it's its own project, then it's usually not a problem.... generally

@this agreed, hence suggesting (initially) limiting it to brand-new projects only

the MVP? like, Mat the MVP or like Model-View-Project?

Minimim Viable Product (dang that initialism is overloaded!)

lol. Yeah

Could even initially provide it as kinda internet-enabled "project templates"

yeah

#gotttaStartSomewhere

^

(I'm saying this as someone who hasn't PRd to RD in FOREVER...)

mumble mumble life getting in the way mumble

maybe do it for a shirt? :p

now there's an idea :-)

One thing that I think is irreducible is the "curated" part. Not suggesting that we turn into an appstore, but I think we need to at least have sight of the source. Don't want issues of "OMGZ, I installed a nugget and now my company is pwned"

Maybe just require that people PR to a repo we own?

yeah, own the nugget repo works for me.

or via rD's website

yep either would work

@mansellan I wouldn't want that for the general case, though.

@Vogel612 wouldn't want what sorry?

in the end, people must be responsible themselves for checking which code they import and I don't see it as our responsibility that nobody gets pwnd because they pulled unverified arbitrary code from the interwebs

Oh absolutely. It's the same as copy-pasta from SO.

my interest is more in making sure it doesn't become a craplist that list 1000s lame codes.

But we could have an official repo as a sandbox (stuff like Matt's MVVM), and if people wanna go outside of that then OK, but they're on their own. Perhaps with a warning dialog.

@this you mean like npm did?

Kodi does it that way

yeah.

Ugh, don't mention npm. It's killing our build servers at work as we speak...

so we basically have a builtin default repo and the users can add additional repos as they please

and when everyone get pwned when a guy throws a hissy fit, we can say "sucks to be ya"

@Vogel612 yes, that's my current thinking.

^

that makes sense.

for an MVP I'd want "name, repo and exact version match" for dependencies to download

BTW, was the npm incident simple as restoring the original repo?

npm had multiple incidents

I was thinking for the absolute MVP, don't even think about dependencies. It starts as a cheap way to get example code...

if the nugget repo is on RD's repo, it makes it hard for a bad actor to just pull a critical piece and break everyone that way.... right?

@Vogel612 oh dear

@this if we control the repo, nobody can pull stuff

that needs some legalese to be covered in that way, though.

so exactly how did the npm work again

a proper boring CLA should work just fine

basically "we are just hosting this as a courtesy. you're still responsible, and we assume no liabilities whatsoever. Also, your mom wears combat boots."

@this it's basically NuGet for JS, but with the added "benefit" of being written in JS and allowing fuzzy version specifications like "2.4.^"

I know that part, but i meant how did that bad actor manage to break everyone else when he pulled his repo in a hissy fit

and with less rigorous package signing requirements

@Vogel612 And it breaks ADO pipelines. Regularly but randomly.

@this well, everyone else didn't have a local copy of that particular library and in the next build things broke because that transitive dependency was missing

^

"meh it's fine, it'll always be there"

it didn't help that someone decided to subsequently hijack that package identifier for malware

ooo fun

worse is when a critical package gets pwned. Then everyone blindly builds it in, and suddenly everyone is screwed. ISTR that happening at least once.

and because it's JS there was literally no way to sandbox the dependency

sounds like this will be a non-issue for VBA code, though given how braindead it is WRT referencing dependencies.

@mansellan stuff like that is an inherent risk of package management though, because the dev credentials can always be compromised

@this ya, I don't think we want to deal with dependency graphs just yet

@Vogel612 yeah. quite scary when you think about it. Imagine if newtonsoft had a malware infiltration...

@mansellan it's ok. Microsoft has AV running everytime you build your VS project.

@this tries to work out if that's missing a <sarcasm> tag

@this <narrator>No, Microsoft doesn't.</narrator>

lol

oh btw, MAGE is now open source - I need to find some time to review that PR.

@mansellan you make a good point - I'll make a distinct MVVM repo... under the @rubberduckvba org, I guess.

But yeah, it's pretty much a MVVM framework =)

or rather, should grow into one

@MathieuGuindon just thinking out loud --- with Access bound forms, could the MVVM framework be set as to focus on the other properties but not the values?

@this could be something like a "project template: mvvm", that creates the framework classes in the active project... could pull them from the GH repo and skip nuggets altogether =)

@MathieuGuindon yeah that woudl be the simplest way to get the "nugget" going.

@this the bindings only need a source object and a property path, and a target object and property path: works with any object type!

@this as a RD feature yeah

Right; it's the fact that a bound form will have its own event sequences that the MVVM framework needs to work with or around

(dang catch-up cross-convo, sorry for all the pings!)

lol, no worries

Yeah - but then specific binding classes can be implemented, and we can have host-specific classes that download into the vba project or not depending on the host app...

which kind of implies that the framework needs to agree on the contract for the extensibility

indeed

that's the catch

basically a shipped bad interface is a burned good identifier name

"no, you have to implement the IDerp2394"

lol on the bright side we already have a working '@Obsolete("use IDerp2394 instead") annotation

does the current version handle events?

?

Property bindings handle a number of Change and Exit events for a bunch of MSForms event sources

Command bindings handle Click events for a CommandButton

but new implementations could handle any other event source

Internally the callbacks simulate events for the propagation mechanics

So... UX? I'm thinking a command in RD (in appropriate locations) that could discover all nuggets that apply to the current host, display a synopsis (and perhaps a link to a fuller description), and if selected, would spin up a new host document with all the code imported.

So instead of your blog posts having to suggest cloning RD Samples, you could just point readers to check out the latest nuggets?

Hell, the nugget could even link to the blog...

[discussion]

@MathieuGuindon the new website is awesome - but on the homescreen, "below the fold", it should have synopsis of key features (paragraph + screenshot), each with a "learn more" link which jumps to the relevant feature page.

I suggest that only because it's 100x beyond my web dev reach!

Good idea!

@mansellan I think you're onto something there..

this is what made me think of it: ravendb.net

perhaps without quite so many float-overs :-)

@mansellan nugget discovery could be driven by api.rubberduckvba.com, and the records controlled by the admin site (or the admin vba mvvm app)

@MathieuGuindon yes quite

man, this is writing itself in the sky

cloud. in the cloud.

(ref. "Written in the sky", i.e. bound to happen)

I mean, we know this as nuggets, and we know where we want it to end up (NuGet for VBA). But to start with, it could be as simple as a "New Project" dialog that had an "online" node...

Put the "Minimum" in "Minimum Viable Product"...

Yeah

This is where I disagree with @this, he is a proponent of having everything on context menus not dialogs. But menus can only reasonably display so much - dialogs are great for showing filtered views based on hierachical nodes. Consider how you locate things in VS 2019's New Project dialog...

By all means, the context menu can hang on to your most popular selections, but it can't do discovery.