Most importantly, is it seen as rude (acting like someone has to cater to me despite me being in their country) to use English?
Not in Scandinavia and the Netherlands. Being Swedish, I can confirm almost anyone raised and schooled there will have (often near-native) fluency in English by their ...
OTOH many French people are antagonistic towards English-speaking people, for historical reasons. As a UK citizen I've been to France numerous times, and experienced 'attitude' even when speaking my not-too-bad French.
@WeatherVane "I've been to France numerous times, and experienced 'attitude' even when speaking my not-too-bad French" Yeah, in that case it's really them and not you. Most French people I've dealt with have been very courteous and appreciative when told I'm not French (yet speak it)
I have been traveling many times to France, since the 1980s, using English as language to communicate and only got one rude and negative response ever, from Quebec Canadian tourists in my hostel dorm. Never any negative response from French people. And I have seen the fluency of French people in English go up a lot, from a rare individual to most young people and many of the not so young. I am from the Netherlands, never learned French.
The attitude in France may be reserved for native English speakers. My wife and I see very different attitudes. She finds people much willing to speak English than me. However, I am clearly a native speaker and she is not. So, with her, it is a neutral third language. However, even with me, it is occasional rather than universal. As Willeke says, it is changing fast and the number of people willing and able to speak English is rising fast.
One odd case was in a gite in France. I was attempting to speak to the owners in French. The wife could understand me but the husband could not so she was translating from my bad French to real French. He was not unpleasant in any way, he just struggled to understand me.
@Willeke perhaps your English was too good and the Québécois guests took you for someone who didn't speak anything else. My experience of Québec itself was that a little French went a long way - as fairly obvious anglophone visitors, by using our French we exceeded (rather low) expectations. More so than in France, where a combination of needing to warm up to my bit of French and visiting mainly tourist areas meant the only trouble was that I didn't get enough practice. People switched to English too willingly.
@ChrisH-UK, I asked 'quiet please' after ten and when the lights were already off and got an angry 'we are in France, speak French' reply and that was while my English was not good yet. Now non-English-native speakers often take me for a native speaker, but I still not have problems.
@Crazydre that sounds like victim blaming to me. I've visited many countries, and people are usually polite and friendly. Only in France do I occasionally meet this kind of hostility. For example buying a train ticket, and the clerk refused to understand a clear and polite request, with a mixture of disdain, mockery and feigned non-understanding. Even when I wrote the destination in block capitals, he was going to continue the farce, but must have realised how stupid it would make him look, and sold me a ticket contemptuously. You are Swedish, I am English.
@WeatherVane I have also had odd French conversations in train stations. I tried to buy a train ticket from Brussels to Antwerp. The ticket seller claimed to not know the place. When I remembered that, in French, it is called Anvers, I got my ticket.
@Tom It varies widely, but I agree – I very commonly hear Scandinavians speak in terrible English that is very, very far from being near-native. On the other hand, I also often hear Scandinavians where the only thing that distinguishes them as not being near-native is their accent. Even among the first group, though, it’s very rare for someone not to speak English at a level adequate for tourist interactions.
@badjohn you may well have got caught up in the divide between the two main populations of Belgium, causing linguistic confusion (possibly even deliberately)
@badjohn my destination was Boulogne-sur-Mer. While I am obviously not French (although been mistaken for French in Morocco) my accent is a lot better than many English people's attempts to speak French (I won my school's French prize). I've listened to the pronunciation online and AFAIK it's pronounced as written, unlike places such as Cholmondeley in UK.
@ChrisH-UK I am aware of that divide but the clerk was speaking French to previous customers so I did. I don't claim that my French is good but he understood the request, he just did not know the destination. Indeed, I had accidentally used the English name Antwerp which is close to the Flemish name Antwerpen. It is hard to believe that he did not really recognize this as referring to a major city in his own country less than 50km away.
@WeatherVane I guess that we were both victims of deliberate non-understanding. I make no boasts of my French ability but, as I said to ChrisH, he understood all of my request except the destination. When I corrected the destination, I got the ticket that I wanted. I was still using French when I had corrected myself.
@badjohn I mean the use of the Flemish name or similar, presumably pronounced the English way, in the French context could cause confusion even in someone willing to understand. Think how you'd transcribe the sound "antwerp" if it was a French word - it wouldn't even start with the same letter. Then you could have got unlucky and found a proud Walloon annoyed at the intrusion of Flemish into French -but that seems less likely to me
@JanusBahsJacquet It's just frustrating at times, I was having trouble communicating with a Danish student because they didn't speak English that well and then was told that can't be possible because all Danish people speak near-native level English.
@ChrisH-UK Maybe but I still find it unlikely that someone working in a major railway station which not recognize the name of a nearby major city even in the wrong language. For example, the French pronounce Paris rather differently to us but I would still expect most English would understand in context e.g. someone at a ticket desk in St Pancras.
On Danes, I have met both extremes. My Danish brother-in-law is so good at English that it is actually how good he is that is the main give-away: he lacks any regional trait. On the other hand, his mother, knows no English. Of course, she is old and also lives in a remote area. However, among the young, I gave up asking whether someone spoke English long ago as it seemed more likely to cause offence rather than be polite.
"However, among the young, I gave up asking whether someone spoke English long ago as it seemed more likely to cause offence rather than be polite." Yeah, as I said, more than one I've heard Scandos go Samuel Jackson on other Scandos who are fully proficient, just for having a stronger accent than average. "My grandma speaks better than you" etc.
Really toxic tbh
once*
Well Swedes tbf, not Scandos (but I suppose it can happen i DK too)
@badjohn " It is hard to believe that he did not really recognize this as referring to a major city in his own country less than 50km away." no. Antwerp is not in France, it is a belgian town, and I would not expect from most french people to know the name and associate it with Anvers. I would assume the clerk genuinely didn't know the name.
oups forget it, you were buying in Brussels, so yes it was entirely deliberate, part of the bad relation between some frenchs speaking people and some dutch-speaking.
@Crazydre I have spent a lot of time in Denmark and I have not encountered anyone going Samuel Johnson but I have felt slight negative body language when I asked but none when I just start in English. I use this same strategy in a few other countries but not all. In general, I feel that assuming a knowledge of English is rude so I only assume it in a few specific countries.
An amusing case occurred in Copenhagen airport, the check-in clerk asked "forstå du dansk?". I replied "nej". She looked a little surprised and switched to perfect English. I decided not to attempt to continue in D…
"In general, I feel that assuming a knowledge of English is rude so I only assume it in a few specific countries." It really is, the Nordic countries and the Netherlands being exceptions to that excellent rule
"and I have not encountered anyone going Samuel Johnson" I was referring to the fact that, for example, when a Swedish YouTuber does a video in flawless English but with a strong Swedish accent, 50% of the comments from other Swedes are about how he "needs to learn English"
Discussion on answer by Crazydre: Usi…
Discussion on answer by Crazydre: Usi…