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11:00
@Bbrk24 Voting is more important than you think. Votes, views, even if you don't post a thing your contribution still matters.
I’ve posted enough to hit the daily repcap twice already
and the site hasn’t even existed for 24 hours
I'd say that's a way-above average impact then.
rep leagues aren’t a thing for closed betas, are they?
I wonder what they’d look like for something this new
Also, SE is telling me I hit the vote limit, but the Vox Populi badge says I only used 30/40. What’s up with that?
You can see them on area51
11:05
fifth place, I’ll take it
Fixed SE UI screwing up.
3 from NL in the top 10, counting ginger who is apperently on my roof
@Bbrk24 you get 40 votes if you vote on enough questions
@Mast What do you mean?
oh
@mousetail it is a very nice roof
11:07
@Bbrk24 Current image is 2nd version. 1st version had a bar covering part of the users.
the top users page for rep won't mean anything for a while
For anyone else wondering about how to impact the site, it's all already explained on meta.
18 hours ago, by Henry WH Hack v3.0
1
Q: How can you help Programming Language Design and Implementation make it from private to public beta?

SpencerGThanks to everyone involved in the definition and commitment phases for Programming Language Design and Implementation on Area 51, the community has made it into the private beta phase — congratulations! Now that Programming Language Design and Implementation is in private beta, there is still wo...

all right there in the manual
@lyxal Number of accepts
11:08
@lyxal No, the first week you definitely shouldn't put too much weight in it :-)
I just had an idea for a question but I should check whether it already exists
@mousetail also doesn't mean anything yet
except that you got in early
something like “what instructions are common in stack-based languages?”
Usually it's a good idea to wait at least 24h after posting before accepting an answer, even though the checkmark can be moved at will.
Seems maybe too broad but that might be ok this early
When the site is super young too broad matters less
11:10
tell that to the people closing questions for being too broad
@Mast Ahem.
@lyxal Less, not "not at all"
nice
@Bbrk24 I don't think that exists yet
11:10
(I haven't closed any questions myself)
I’ll post that in a moment, then
@Mast What is the dark theme you are using?
I’ve never had to set myself reminders to go upvote things after the vote cap resets, before PLDI
11:13
hey that's the same one i use lol
i used to hit the vote cap on cgcc years ago but even then i also never had to set reminders :P
@Bbrk24 make sure to specify whether you mean stack manipulation only or general functions
Huh, is the biggest tag by far
because otherwise that becomes a question of "what's the most useful built-ins to have in any language"
Makes sense to consider pros and cons when designing or implementing stuff.
11:19
@Mast do you know why people can't edit meta posts?
Can we get LaTeX enabled?
MathJax, prob,
@lyxal Because they would be suggested edits, which are not allowed on meta.
suggested edits aren't allowed on meta?
No.
So anyone under 500 rep won't be able to make an edit.
11:21
then why is there a suggested edits queue on other meta sites?
or is that a private beta only thing not allowing suggested edits?
0
Q: What operations are common in stack-based languages?

Bbrk24A stack-based language necessarily contains at least "push" and "pop" instructions. However, these typically aren't the only ways to manipulate the stack. For example, several languages have an instruction to swap the two values at the top of the stack. Trilangle has an instruction to look arbitr...

Wiki posts are the exception.
There we go
I got blocked from the site for "Too many requests" lol
11:23
from another meta site
why have the queue if there's no suggested edits allowed
Suggested edits are not allowed on non-tag-wiki posts on meta sites.
At this rate, I'll have more rep here than SO by this time tomorrow
They are allowed on tag-wiki posts.
@Mast ah right
seems strange that people aren't allowed to suggest edits on meta
@Bbrk24 one function per answer or multiple in an answer allowed?
11:24
...is it possible to get Citizen Patrol? I can't flag posts, only VTC them
@lyxal Someone on meta complained about answers that list a bunch of things so I'd break them up, but it's really up to you
But considering most posts are not wiki and usually only active members are on meta, suggested edits are hardly a thing on meta.
Depends how many you want to share
@Bbrk24 You can if you flag for something like NAA, VLQ, Spam, etc.
If you want your posts to be easily editable in the next few weeks, make them wiki.
@Bbrk24 probably about 4 or 5
or 6
probably should be 1 post
11:26
yeah then
don't flood my post with six answers
Something tells me languagedesign.stackexchange.com/questions/78/… is going to end up our equivalent to those super common SO questions with 13k upvotes
@lyxal That's something you may want to meta as well. List questions can get out of hand quickly, it's up to the community how they want to deal with questions that have 24+ valid answers.
What was the decision we came to on edits that only add and nothing else?
0
Q: On the Topic of Catalogue Questions

lyxalNote that this is not a discussion over whether catalogue questions are on-topic Questions like What are the syntax options for implementing a ternary "if" operator? and What operations are common in stack-based languages? are prone to having a multitude of valid answers. Such questions are "cata...

Also, I feel like forums.swift.org/t/amendment-se-0368-staticbigint/62992 and forums.swift.org/t/gotchas-related-to-prefix-operators/63086 contain something extractable into a PLDI question, but I'm not sure exactly what or how
11:43
0
Q: What are the advantages of conditional statements having their own scope

EthanWhat are the advantages of conditionals having their own scope? I know this can lead to some extra variables for some programs. But it can also be more memory efficient. Credit to Hg0428 for the idea on A15

@Bbrk24 you might be interested in the stack room
0
Q: What is a generational garbage collector and what are its benefits?

mousetailI heared that C# has a generational garbage collector which makes it faster than a conventional one. I want my language to be fast so using one seems a good idea, but I'm failing to understand what it even is before I can implement one. I found this on Wikipedia: A generational GC (also known as...

11:58
> This question was voluntarily removed by its author.
Shouldn't that be 410, not 404?
410 is for permanently gone resources
410 access to the target resource is no longer available at the origin server, from Mozilla, It still exist on the server.
questions can be undeleted and viewed by those with 10k+ rep (or whatever the rep limit is when beta)
@lyxal Ah, got it, thanks
:+1:
12:01
Bit sad because I wrote a lot of that before the site even went live but the existing explanation is indeed better
@lyxal yep
1k in private beta
Tangentially, why is my explanation of ARC the lowest answer there?
2k in public beta
I've never heared reference counting called arc, ARC in my mind is atomic reference counting
@Bbrk24 fgitw
wait i can't order numbers apparently
because apparently I decided that it'd be a good idea to forget how < works
well I suppose then because arc isn't as common?
also frick that reminds me that reference counting is a thing I need to remember for one of my uni courses :p
12:05
Arc is really common just rarely called arc
There’s also manual retain/release (the only option in Objective-C until 2006) if you think that’s worth mentioning
obligatory
0
Q: What rules can be used to infer line-endings for a language where they are implicit?

GingerIn a lot of older C-family languages, lines of code must be ended with an explicit character (generally a semicolon). However, newer languages support inferring where line-endings should go. What are good parser rules to use for inferring line-endings?

12:24
do yall think they'll let us have a chat easter egg if we ask nicely? :p
Maybe after we graduate
@Bbrk24 hey, I had first place for about 10 mins and second for about an hour :P
12:43
0
Q: Why choosing a left-to-right convention?

AdámOn the subject of associativity when all operators have equal precendence, Ken Iverson writes in Conventions Governing Order of Evaluation that The reasons for choosing a right-to-left instead of a left-to-right convention are: The usual mathematical convention of placing a monadic function to ...

0
Q: What are good specifications for naming packages/modules in a language?

GingerDifferent languages have different naming conventions for their modules. For example, Java-family languages usually use full reverse-domain-name names for packages (ie com.example.examplemodule). Python, however, lets you name your modules whatever you want. What are the pros and cons of these me...

13:29
I just thought of a question but I don’t know if I can format it easily on my phone
Does a question along the lines of “What are the common builtins a golfing language has?” good?
I think that may be for CGCC?
even then, the answer is just a link to a file on github: github.com/Vyxal/Vyxal/blob/version-3/documentation/…
yes I know where it's located, but it's technically language agnostic
hi user :p
sup
funny you should drop in just as I drop a v3 link lol
13:36
It showed up on my scaladar
hi yes hello
welcome back
guess that marks the end of the night shift :p
(it's so hard to resist the urge to add "MOTHERF****RS to the end of that :p)
(chat in-jokes have permanently broken me)
Dew it
Make it a joke here on PLDI too
0
Q: Allowing `}` as a statement terminator in an expression-based language?

bigyihsuanMy language is expression based; many of its language constructs are not statements, but rather expressions that return a value. However, since everything is an expression, my grammar looks like code := stmt* stmt := expr ';' expr := var | loop | if | ... | literal | ident | block block := '{'...

0
Q: Why is Smalltalk’s cascade operator not more common?

Bbrk24According to the Wikipedia article on Smalltalk, | window | window := Window new. window label: 'Hello'. window open If a series of messages are sent to the same receiver as in the example above, they can also be written as a cascade with individual messages separated by semicolons: Window new ...

13:46
@Seggan Nah, golflang design is on-topic here too
What's the preferred place for that, though?
I'd say here
CGCC only has a few golflang design questions
And this site needs more :p
True
I suppose it depends which community you want to hear from: people who primarily golf, and in a variety of languages, or people who primarily design a variety of languages
Ones like that relevant to actual golfiness may do better on CGCC, while ones about parsing/interpreting/community should def. go here
I see a similar question languagedesign.stackexchange.com/q/325/201 and it is well-recivied
13:51
@RydwolfPrograms jokes on you I've already done some of that :p
so wonder if that fits to
@justANewbstandswithUkraine There are a lot more builtins for golfing though than for stack manupulation
it might be a huge list
18 mins ago, by lyxal
even then, the answer is just a link to a file on github: https://github.com/Vyxal/Vyxal/blob/version-3/documentation/Core%20Functions.md
@mousetail 340 items in said list
And that's just one language
there are many more potential builtins
0
Q: When should a golfing language question be posted here vs. on CGCC?

Radvylf ProgramsThere are currently two sites where questions about golfing languages (languages designed to be as compact as possible) are definitively on-topic: This site Code Golf & Coding Challenges What should be considered when deciding whether to post a golflang question here vs. on CGCC?

13:53
yeah that's why I don't rush asking it
@mousetail most of those are language agnostic
Not disputing that, but builtins exist that are common but vyxal doesn't have
Maybe because it does them implicitly or they are irrelevant for stack based languages, or just because limited space
You forgot the fourth option: I don't know they exist :p
Of course, I just know if I criticize vyxal at 10 people will start yelling at me so I'm assuming good intent to be safe
That's a pretty outdated and cynical view of Vyxal's community, coming from a once longtime critic of Vyxal's community
13:58
You can't really see it from inside
Vyxal no longer has that many people :(
Wdym "from inside"?
I've never used Vyxal, never contributed to it in any way, and have VyxalBot blocked on GitHub for some reason.
Like a year and a half ago Vyxal may have had some annoying contributors doing annoying things, but that's just because it was designed to be appealing to new and young golfers...the same group that's likely to be less mature.
14:17
@mousetail and you can't really see it from the outside either - for the people still active in the chat room, they aint the kind of people to start yelling at you the moment you express a negative opinion about the language
@lyxal permission to drop into the Vyxal room, leave a vaguely negative comment about Vyxal, and see what happens? :p
Call it a social experiment
I mean sure if you want lol
Okay start the timer
Let me grab some popcorn
This was closed, reopen, and now it's has been sent to the close vote review again. (languagedesign.stackexchange.com/review/close/220), I can sense a dispute coming on.
9 mins ago, by Bbrk24
Let me grab some popcorn
You said it.
14:30
I think we need a meta discussion
IMO it's now perfectly fine
(actually lemme delete my comment...)
(I'm not sure if it's clear it was since fixed and reopened)
0
Q: How can it be determined that a cast or type test is unchecked?

MI3GuyIn languages like Java that use type erasure for generics, some casts are considered unchecked. One example is casting a value of Object to List<String>. On the other hand, casting from Iterable<String> to List<String> is allowed because the type parameter matches. Casting Object to List<?> is al...

Quick CMP: (chat mini poll) My current First Answers/First Questions policy is just doing any voting/commenting I'd do normally then clicking "Looks OK", since most people here are from the commit stage and thus aren't really new to the site. Should I (and other reviewers ig) start using welcome comments, or should that wait until public beta?
Oh since some people here might not have been in TNB before, quick CMx reference: CMx stands for Chat Mini [x]. CMC is for "challenge" (typically code golf in TNB), CMQ is for question (general questions), CMP is for "poll", and CMM is for meta (questions about the site that're too small to be worth a meta question)
Oh I should probably make that more searchable
in Vyxal, 7 mins ago, by Rydwolf Programs
On the other hand Jelly tastes like fruit and with a pleasant texture, so you've got competition
This would be a fun april fools question here
"What do various programming languages taste like?"
Python tastes like dry rice I think. C is plain bread.
14:41
and C++ can tastes like whatever you want but it sucks
yeah ure not the only one lol
Well yeah but I'm not gonna be like "hey yo Seggan isn't leaving welcome comments should they start?" :p
c++ is like when you mix cheeze and nutella
This site launch is getting me in the langdev mood
Which is not good since I'm so busy right now lol
It's nearly summer
14:44
java tastes like coffee (beans) (raw)
@RydwolfPrograms wait until public beta
Hope you get some free time then
@bigyihsuan Kotlin tastes like actual coffee
I should yeah, but I've also got a lot of plans for how to spend that free time :p
I've been making a list
javascript tastes like decaffeinated caffeine
3
14:45
@RydwolfPrograms lol same
@bigyihsuan Ooh or burnt coffee
nice, 500
(does decaf actually change the taste?)
@bigyihsuan Javascript is those candies that just tatse like chemicals
@Ginger I’m 498
14:46
just one edit would do
wtf is that URL
URLception
typescript is burnt coffee + sugar + milk
That seems accurate
14:47
the base drink is still terrible, but it's less terrible because of the additions
XML is cranberry sauce. Everyone agrees it tastes weird, but very occasionally it makes sense
Maybe then javascript is like coffee but with the grounds left in, so you need to constantly watch out not to touch the bad bits but if you manage to avoid them it's not that bad
C++ is like one of those smoothies with ten different fruits thrown in that might taste okay individually but taste just plain weird together
C# tastes like very cold metal or ozone
@mousetail JS is like coffee but with a bit of cyanide thrown in, and the only way to avoid the cyanide is to drink as little as possible
@Ginger Hey, lay off C#
14:49
no
C++ templates is like one of those really twisty straws
C# is a nice language
@user And you can build up a tolerance to it
Ozone is a nice taste actually
yeah except for when MICROSOFT meddles with it
Rabbit tastes like carrots with subtle coffee undertones
14:50
introducing: microsoft ozone:tm:
$59.99 a year
Legit sounds like an MS product
now with 50% more ads in your oxygen
it does lol
and it's, like, database management software or something boring
I’m queuing up so many posts to upvote at UTC midnight it’s going to eat into a considerable portion of tomorrow’s upvotes
14:51
(don't tell DBA.SE I said that, they'll have my head on a pike)
YES 502
I can finally freely edit posts!
Hey why y’all stealing my http cats
ive seen at least 3 alr today
My favorite is probably 101
Continue...
14:52
ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL SWITCHING PROTOCOLS
@Ginger mine is 406
relatable
help maybe I only like 101 because my brain's been tainted with the Socket.IO virus
I like 411 or 401
Oh lol i realized i was so close to the rep cap for so long of the night, a single upvote ran and i just hit it
Wait question: how do the 1xx codes work?
Like how does the response status mean like, keep going?
14:54
It's used for large file uploads
Can the status change during the course of the request?
Switching protocols is used for websockets
Yeah, knew that one
100 is for large uploads. You can say "I want to upload this file of this size" then wait for a 100 to continue the request
There is a Expect: 100 continue header for that
14:55
I guess I should probably learn how HTTP actually works
> Excpept
@RydwolfPrograms godspeed
Excpept: When there's a protein folding exception
4
networking is one of three things that I will not touch
the other two are bluetooth and low-level graphics
14:55
I relate strongly to HTTP status codes 300-399
1xx: ?????
2xx: Everything is fine
3xx: You are looking in the wrong place
4xx: You fucked up
5xx: I fucked up
1's too specific
It does other things too right
@RydwolfPrograms The issue with this is most servers and clients only implement half of it, and each of them implement a different half
@Ginger i like low level networking actually. It’s satisfying. But Bluetooth and graphics are no. I hate quaternions
Yeah networking is fun to learn about
14:57
@RydwolfPrograms I have no idea what 1xx does
It's just awful to actually work with
@RydwolfPrograms ...except when it doesn't work
dammiy noinja;d
lol do you have a macro for that or sth
There is only 100 and 101 and both have been explained
Aren't there more like 103
14:58
102 and 103 as well
but both of them are weird
Nothing actually supports them
^ yeah
@RydwolfPrograms no, but that's a good idea
I have six macro keys on my keyboard and I have no clue what to do with five of them
(I've already decided one will be slash-up-enter, for repeating commands in MC)
also I am 100% going to use http.cat as error pages for any websites I make
Since I'm in another Hypixel Zombies phase, considering using the macros for common messages
Like "keep one zombie alive this round"
Or "it's following me lmk when to kill it"
15:00
since my chat name proposal got +16 in under 24 hours, am I go to change it?
Eh I’d wait for a bit longer
🤔
wow, repcapped already
that was fast
^^^^
At least 48h
People are still rolling in from commit
👍
I don't think it'll change tho
Neither do I, but just in case
And YACC is a new proposal
15:03
hm?
Wait it's got downvotes?
D:
ehhh
yikes, our visits per day is not very good
we're at 262 where 500 is "needs work"
also, we just broke 300 users!
0
Q: Why is the Elvis operator not more common?

justANewbieFrom Wikipedia: In certain computer programming languages, the Elvis operator, often written ?:, is a binary operator that returns its first operand if that operand evaluates to a true value, and otherwise evaluates and returns its second operand. For example in Kotlin, foo ?: bar will yield fo...

@Ginger We don't need to worry about that stat IMO
15:07
I'm gonna go clean up some tags
We're going to be doing great for all the rest
@NewPosts mmmmmmmmm I don't know about this question
Almost no sites do well on every stat
"why is x not popular" doesn't seem like a good format
0
Q: What are common approaches to implementing type systems?

springogeekI'm implementing my own statically-typed programming language and I'm not too happy with my own approach to types. At the moment, I'm relying on mapping a textual representation of a type to an index in a hash map, and then trying to parse that for "sub types" (for things like "arrays of a type", "...

15:14
I don't like the situation with and
^
To me is definitely a bad tag
sry
lemme write a meta thingy
Since tokens only really make sense in the context of , but as a tag for lexing, it's harder to discover and more likely to be used for the wrong thing
Some tags for specific types of tokens would make sense to me tho
E.g., for sure
We have already I'm sure
we've got idents and whitespace, but no
15:16
Maybe we should split that into and tho
Yeah just a tag for literals seems too vague
@RydwolfPrograms then that falls into the slope of "we must include and and " etc; i say just keep 1 tag that encompasses all of em
0
Q: On [tokens] and [characters]

GingerVarious questions on main currently have the tokens and characters tags. Which tag should be used where is not clearly specified, and their meanings have some overlap. What should we do with them?

0
Q: What are the pros and cons of more permissive identifier character sets?

Radvylf ProgramsMost languages, at least any vaguely derived from C, have the following rules for identifiers: Must start with a letter or underscore All characters after the first can be a letter, number, or underscore Many languages add additional allowed characters to this. JavaScript allows $ at the start ...

proposal: make a synonym of
@Ginger ikr
15:23
actually, we already decided not to have a general tag, right?
@Ginger and “can we add x to language y” is kinda bad too
@RydwolfPrograms we have tho
should we have a "question formats to discourage" question on meta, like CGCC has?
I'm ready to post one if so
0
Q: What are the pros and cons of an Option type in comparison to nullable types?

Radvylf ProgramsThere seem to be two main ways that languages handle the same concept: Nullable types, like Kotlin, C#, and many other OOP languages Options, like Rust and Haskell, which are wrappers around a type that can either be Some(...) or None (or equivalent names) While these serve similar purposes, th...

15:26
@Seggan True, I think is probably clear enough
Honestly do we need a tag at all
To me it seems like combining with any data type tag works
Maybe we can make it a synonym?
@Ginger yes
0
Q: How "meta" should we allow our tags be?

SpevacusWe already had a chat about pros-cons over here, and I can see the reasoning for keeping it around for this site... But we've also got a multiple-answers tag that I really don't think we should keep around. We're early in private beta, I know, but I do think that drawing a line around what a "good"...

0
Q: Should my language distinguish between single- and double-quoted string literals?

GingerIn most modern languages, string literals can use either single (') or double (") quotes. Are there any reasons to distinguish between the two, and if so what would the other kind be used for?

Actually, do we really need the -family tags?
tags are meant for answerers, and I think those are kinda redundant
is understandable, but the ones are kinda self-evident from the question
Yeah, I think comparison is another meta-tag that we don't need.
Unless you're talking about actual programmatic comparisons of data or something...
0
Q: Abbreviate the site name to an acronym in space-sensitive UI components

GingerProgramming Language Design and Implementation has a very long name. It might actually have the longest name of any SE site, although I can't be bothered to check. This leads to situations like Weird padding on the VTC privilege notice, where the extreme width of the name causes weird UI issues l...

15:42
ugh, I keep forgetting that any extra rep I get today is lost
Lol same
hot take: the repcap is an anti-poopsocking feature
Just start up a plan of posts you plan to make and space 'em out :P
I am not capable of that lol
I'm barely capable of remembering to eat lunch every day
wooow user's identicon looks weird
@Ginger That's explicitly the case :p
15:44
@user make sure you've saved your identicon if you don't want it to be changed
@RydwolfPrograms really? lol
Yeah it's basically to say "you've contributed enough today, go home", so that people don't burn themselves out or get massive amounts of rep in a tiny time period
@Ginger ?
Is that a threat?
your identicon on PLDI is purple and weird because SE's redoing their identicon generator system
Holy heck how did I miss that
so if you don't want it to change you should save a copy of it elsewhere
15:46
tbh I don't care too much about it
But thanks for the heads up
sure np
@Bbrk24 Feel free to edit my answer, I don't know enough to answer properly lol
@Ginger blue for me
0
Q: Alternate syntax so I can both a safe navigation and a monad unwrapping operator?

mousetailI'd like to have both a safe navigation operator and monad unwrapping operator. Safe navigation is like the feature in TypeScript: Some(k)?.property == Some(k.property) None?.property == None This is very useful for transversing nested structures with members that may or may not exist. However, ...

15:48
@Ginger nope, bc chat is linked to his cgcc
Their new identical looks cool tho
0
Q: Are there any benefits to an Option type in a dynamically-typed language?

Silvio MayoloGoing off of this question about the difference between nullable types and optional types, I notice that no mainstream dynamically typed language has ever gone for an explicitly-boxed Option type. Python, Ruby, and Javascript all have null values, called (respectively) None, nil, and null. Obviou...

oh yeah we should hold an RO election at some point
I call dibs on the meta post! I'll write it up after lunch
mod-PT election when?
@Ginger we already have 6 lol
I'm preparing to write a question asking whether the extra work needed to support very helpful compiler error messages, such as what Rust supports, all that beneficial (phrased a bit differently than that- "Are very explanatory compiler error messages worth their weight in work needed to support them?"), and I'm wondering if that would be on-topic for this site.
Since that's, technically, about the compiler and not necessarily about the language
15:59
@Seggan Not democratically elected, though

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