The Sphinx's Lair

North Læraðr

02:28

@Deusovi ddef for MOVE?

hmm

Deusovi

Clue's already been solved. Gareth's working on another.

North Læraðr

oh! i missed that

ahh clever

MOVE prob wasn't a good guess anyways

too similar to each other

Gapmeister66

06:07

@Deusovi thank you 😊

oAlt

09:15

oh, finally, can anyone (especially @jafe ) comment on the difficulty/easiness of my crossword? I figured it may not be that hard especially for experienced solvers, but let me know what you think.

jafe

09:33

it wasn't very hard i think, but there were definitely places where i was stuck for a while

especially the lower-left corner

i didn't know the word "lyse" and never really got the "no symbol" wordplay (aren't letters symbols too?)

oAlt

I see, thx :D

@jafe fair point for the latter one lol

jafe

09:55

having 3 unchecked letters in a row makes it more difficult to get the clues along the right and left border, but i think both were pretty gettable regardless

or, well, i looked at deusovi's solve for one of them, but in retrospect i probably should have got that :P

i spent a good while googling for english philosophers... that was a nice piece of misdirection

Sphinx

10:37

4

Q: What do all of these pictures have in common?

What do all of these things have in common? The answer is a simple word or phrase.

msh210

11:07

I have a cryptic clue with a really nice surface but I can't use it (neither CCCC nor elsewhere) because the definition half isn't quite right -- and making it quite right would ruin the surface. (Also because only a mathematician would appreciate the surface.) So I'll just post it here for fun: Homotopy of sphere yields pathological surface (6). (The clue with the more accurate definition would be: Homotopy of sphere yields surface pathology (6) -- but "surface pathology" is not a math term.)

oAlt

11:31

@jafe Yeah, I was really too lazy to change that :(((((((

However I have completely avoided it now

But that one's gonna be stuck in my laptop for a while longer

@jafe Thx, didn't expect that. I have a qualm about it tho, in that I had to change that clue slightly

but anyway

oAlt

12:29

oh boy, I'm late to this but jafe's 4th cryptic crossword (the one in the alphabetical title series) has a clue functioning both as a ddef and an &lit.. wonderful

Sphinx

0

Q: Make this equation correct

Using your creativity, conversion skills and adding one letter (anywhere) to both sides, make the following equation correct. Same letter must be added to both sides. V I E N T = D Hint Check the Tags Linked to Is this equation correct?

lateral-thinking language

Puzzling Meta

12:50

0

Q: Why are there always questions with “grandpa”?

I always see puzzles with “says grandpa”, “claims grandpa”, e.t.c. Why do we use grandpa?

discussion

Gareth McCaughan

13:09

@msh210 That's quite nice. Not absolutely 100% convinced by how you've used "homotopy", though.

msh210

@GarethMcCaughan I know, I know. But it's worth it for the surface, no?

Gareth McCaughan

Maybe "Deformation of sphere".

msh210

@GarethMcCaughan Ooh, that's better.

Gareth McCaughan

(Which I think improves the surface, though maybe it makes the clue a little too easy by having an actually valid anagrind.)

msh210

(Though more obviously an anagram indicator.)

(jinx)

Gareth McCaughan

13:11

which reminds me, I'm supposed to be setting a C4, aren't I?

msh210

I believe so, yes.

Gareth McCaughan

CCCC: Ugly spats are essential part of suit (10)

not a great clue but it'll do

msh210

By your surface, did you intend "Ugly shoe covers are essential part of suit of clothes" or "Ugly arguments are essential part of lawsuit"? Both make perfect sense.

Gareth McCaughan

No comment. Obviously.

msh210

Well, it's a surface-related question, so I don't think answering it will give anything away, but okay.

(Both statements are false, I hope.)

Gareth McCaughan

13:23

E.g., one possibility is that one of those meanings relates to the wordplay and/or actual definition, while the other is the intended surface intended to distract from the wordplay and actual definition. In that case, picking an intended surface reading would give information about how the clue is intended to work.

msh210

Fair enough. Another possibility is that you intended yet another surface, which also intersects the wordplay and/or definition, and that I haven't thought of yet, so you can't mention it.

Gareth McCaughan

Indeed. (Or which carefully avoids intersecting the wordplay and/or definition.)

user435118

15:42

I think I have the answer (figured out half of the wordplay), not sure about the rest yet (it's probablt wrong anyway)

user435118

@GarethMcCaughan Is it DISCORDANT? Ugly spat = DISCORD essential = wanted, part of wanted = ANT = DISCORD+ANT which is Not in agreement or harmony (defines a law suit)

Gareth McCaughan

I'm afraid DISCORDANT is not the intended answer, and I don't think it's a working answer either: it's too impressionistic.

user435118

:(

Gareth McCaughan

"Ugly spats" can't yield DISCORD for two reasons. The first (and the more clear-cut) is that "ugly spats" is plural; maybe it could produce DISCORDS but not DISCORD.

The second reason is that "ugly spats" and "discord(s)" aren't really close enough for one to define the other. "Spats" could yield "discords" or maaaaybe even "discord", but then what's "ugly" doing there?

user435118

True, is ugly or suit the definition part (or is that too much detail)?

Gareth McCaughan

15:53

I actually think that even "spats" alone is too specific to yield "discord". Generally, in a cryptic clue something more general in the clue can lead to something (not too much) more specific in the answer, but not the other way around. So if the clue says "bird" then it might produce ROBIN as an answer or an element in the wordplay, but if the clue says "robin" it can't produce BIRD.

(Unless there's some qualifier like "for instance" or "for example" or "say" to indicate that the thing in the clue might be an example rather than a definition.)

"Essential part" making ANT is problematic too just because "part" is so vague. I think most setters would consider it unfair to use "essential part" to clue ANT. This is one of those fuzzy qualitative things that you just need experience to get the hang of, but the idea is that in order to be fair to the solver, clues and parts of clues should restrict the "search space" quite a lot. And "first find a word that means something like 'essential', and then take any part of it" [...continues]

[continues...] is just not very restrictive.

Finally, "of law suit" can't really define DISCORDANT. It's true that a law suit might be discordant, but "of law suit" doesn't mean "discordant" or anything like it.

The definition part of a clue should really be a definition of the final answer. There's some latitude in what counts as a definition (so, again, I'm afraid this is a thing you need to get used to with practice) but "of law suit" for "discordant" is definitely too loose.

(I hope you don't mind the big wall of text or take it as me complaining at you. I'm hoping it's useful feedback to help get the hang of how these things work.)

user435118

Yes, thanks for the feedback. I do appreciate it. I'm still getting the hang of it :)

user435118

@GarethMcCaughan

user435118

> Is ugly or suit the definition part (or is that too much detail)?

Gareth McCaughan

I'm afraid that's a thing you have to figure out :-). (Note that the def might be more than one word; it might be "ugly spats" or "part of suit", for instance.)

bobble

Can you give feedback on a cryptic clue I tried to make? @GarethMcCaughan?

Gareth McCaughan

16:04

Sure.

bobble

"Back, back!" say fleas joining together (5) -> knits

back of back = K, fleas are an example of NITS, joining together = KNITS

I wondered if that's allowed

Mithical

How is "say" being used?

bobble

for "an example of"

Usually there would be a comma after it, say, if I used it here

but that would mess up the surface

jafe

shouldn't "joining together" be "knitting", not "knits"?

bobble

ahg

i'm terrible with tenses

Gareth McCaughan

16:07

So, I agree that joining together = knitting rather than knits.

bobble

:(

Gareth McCaughan

Also, fleas really aren't an example of nits, are they? (Strictly, nits are head-louse eggs. They're often used to mean the lice themselves. Metaphorically, nit-picking is quibbling about little details so I guess nits can be little details. But I don't see how they can be fleas.)

bobble

:(

Gareth McCaughan

Don't be hard on yourself. Making good cryptic clues is hard.

jafe

i had no idea that's what nit means... i only know it as a word for "overly passive poker player"

Gareth McCaughan

16:10

I, on the other hand, had never heard that meaning.

user435118

I may sound stupid here, but what is an ugly spat?

bobble

spat means fight?

user435118

An ugly fight?

Mithical

Yep, so an ugly spat is usually a particularly bad argument

Gareth McCaughan

16:31

"Spat" has a number of meanings. According to the OED, it means: 1. the spawn of certain shellfish. 2. a flat implement used for some ball games. 3. a dispute or quarrel. 4. an article of clothing worn on feet/ankles to stop trousers getting splashed. 5. a small splash. Those are the noun-meanings (excluding one that is defunct). [...continues]

bobble

I only knew #2

Gareth McCaughan

[continued...] It also means, as a verb, to spawn (of those same shellfish), to start up rapidly, and to engage in a dispute; and of course it's a past tense and past participle of "spit".

I am, of course, making no comment on which if any of those meanings might be relevant to the clue.

("if any" because sometimes some words in a clue are there only to supply letters.)

user435118

Are hyphenated words allowed?

jafe

"ugly" is an anagram indicator, so it could be an anagram of "spats are", with the central ("essential") part of "suit" which is UI

unfortunately 1) no such word exists and 2) there would be no words left for the definition part

another potential indicator is "essential" for hidden word, but in that case the only possibility would be "glyspatsar", which as far as i can tell is not a word which means "part of suit" (or anything else, for that matter)

user435118

What do you mean by 'hidden word'?

jafe

16:36

hidden word is where the letters making the answer are included inside the clue

like "volcano in vietnam" where the answer, ETNA, is hidden inside the word VI(ETNA)M

in that case "in" is the hidden word indicator

so if there was a word "glyspatsar" then it would be hidden inside "u(gly spats ar)e"

user435118

BOOTSTRAPS

user435118

Just something I got, not sure if it helps

user435118

Contains trap

Sphinx

1

Q: What is the maximum length of sequence where the sum of 5 consecutive numbers in positive and sum of 8 consecutive numbers is negatve

What can be maximum length of such sequence? Hint one such sequence is

mathematics number-sequence sequence

user435118

16:52

I have a potential answer, not sure if anyone can make the wordplay work

user435118

PLAINTIFFS

user435118

PLAIN = ugly, TIFF = spat

user435118

And a plaintiff is a person who brings suit in a court

jafe

that sounds convincing

Mithical

(spats is plural as well, so it'd be TIFFS)

user435118

16:54

But what is essential part doing then?

Mithical

"essential part of suit" is the definition

user435118

Oh

user435118

@GarethMcCaughan Is it PLAINTIFFS?, PLAIN=ugly + TIFFS = spats, and is a "essential part of suit"

Ankoganit

I'm not super convinced Gareth would do Ugly for PLAIN tbh, but this sounds plausible

bobble

Attempt No. 2! "Letters sent off (4)" -> MAIL, ddef

probably not very good/hard at all

jafe

17:02

i think sent off would be "mailed"

bobble

agh tenses again

jafe

a fix would be something like "send off letters"

bobble

If you can't tell, grammar isn't my strong suit

jafe

but the two meanings are pretty closely related, so maybe more interesting would be something that's the same word but has an unrelated meaning? like "send off armour"

bobble

yeah, much smarter

Mithical

17:04

....would "Chain letter (4)" work as a ddef?

Ankoganit

@Sphinx someone needs to comment the usual "attribution please" blurb on this one

Deusovi

17:34

PLAINTIFFS seems plausible enough to me.

@bobble Punctuation that's necessary for the wordplay must exist in the clue. In general, the rule is that the cryptic reading overrides all else: you can't remove necessary things to make the surface better.

bobble

:(

John Dvorak

17:48

@Mithical looks good to me

Deusovi

yeah, that's a really nice clue

user435118

@Deusovi If I actually got a CCCC I would be shocked

user435118

It took me 1.5 hours :/

user435118

Looking at synonyms of ugly, spats, essential and suit, looking at anagrams, words that start with those synonyms etc.

user435118

@Deusovi (or anyone else) Is it acceptable to use tools like words that contain ... for CCCC's?

John Dvorak

17:54

I like the definition of plaintiffs as an essential part of a suit

Deusovi

What do you mean "tools like words that contain"? Oh, like an online word finder tool?

Sid

@Mithical well "Letter Chain" has a better surface to it, no?

Deusovi

A "chain letter" is a thing.

user435118

@Deusovi Yeah

Deusovi

It means one of those emails that says "Send this to five of your friends or you'll never meet your true love", or something to that effect.

Sid

17:56

@Deusovi oh? I had no idea.

@Deusovi Ah. Scams.

John Dvorak

curiously, "chain mail" doesn't mean that.

Deusovi

isn't English fun?

John Dvorak

I suppose "chain mail" would still work as a definition for spam in CCs and codenames?

Deusovi

Hm, I don't see why not.

user435118

@Deusovi So is that fun?

Deusovi

18:00

I don't have a problem with it, personally. Some people prefer to wait for the clue to be out for a day or two before they resort to those.

Gareth McCaughan

18:34

@Danii Yes, PLAINTIFFS is correct. Well done! Now you have to write the next one.

I'm not very keen on "plain" used to mean "ugly", but it does get used that way sometimes.

bobble

Can I try again? Or am I being too annoying?

Deusovi

You're not being annoying at all.

At least, I don't think so.

bobble

ahhh that's wrong

Attempt No. 3! "Apple's head has chimera's head ahead of headless crazy(4)" -> COOK

chimera's head = C, crazy = KOOK, headless crasy = OOK, C + OOK = COOK

and Apple's CEO is Tim COOK

Deusovi

The surface doesn't make too much sense, but that's fine - surfaces take more practice.

bobble

I was just sticking "head" in as many times as possible

Deusovi

18:42

Yes, I can see that.

bobble

sorry

Deusovi

Good surfaces generally sound more like English prose -- something you might see as a newspaper headline, for instance.

(Maybe a particularly boring or unusual newspaper in a lot of cases.)

bobble

yeah, thing is I'm not great at English

Deusovi

As for validity: "has" is unused. And "crazy" ~ KOOK doesn't quite make sense to me: can those have the same part of speech?

bobble

"Crazy" is used as a noun where I am, as is "kook"

Deusovi

18:44

Hm, yeah, looks like it can be a noun. That's fine then. Only issue I see is "has" being unused.

Sid

@Deusovi 'Has' as the connector between wordplay and def

It's extremely sketchy but I have seen those used in some newspaper cryptics...

Deusovi

Not every word can be a 'connector'. Any words in between wordplay and definition should tell you the relationship between the two parts.

bobble

would "is" work?

Deusovi

Sure.

Sid

@Deusovi As I said, I have seen "has" used as a connector between wordplay and def in some cryptics.

Deusovi

18:46

I've seen a lot of sketchy stuff in cryptics. Doesn't mean I'll allow it. :P

John Dvorak

Allow it to whom? :P

bobble

Well, I am asking their opinion of my clue attempts, so really it's just if @Deusovi allows it

okay, last one before I have to sign off: "Mixed-up words anger normal Americans, starting with small metric units (8)" -> ANAGRAMS

user435118

@GarethMcCaughan Yay! Writing one might take a while, where do I start?

bobble

here : puzzling.stackexchange.com/questions/45984/cryptic-clue-guide

anyways, "anger normal Americans" + "starting with" is supposed to indicate a first-letter extraction ANA, and "small metric units" = GRAMS

Deusovi

@bobble I'm not sure about "X Y Z, starting" for the first letters. Maybe "[...] anger normal Americans, to start [...]", for better grammar?

bobble

18:52

I'll take you word for it

Deusovi

I'm not sure about that option either. "at the start" would probably be best.

bobble

why doesn't "starting with" work?

user435118

Will one of the experienced CCCC’ers be able to check my clue before I post it? (Obviously they won’t be able to guess it)

Deusovi

Because "X Y Z starting with" does not mean "the starts of X Y Z".

bobble

you could use a one time secret

@Daniil

@Deusovi okay, I see

Deusovi

18:53

I believe he's asking for volunteers, not whether it's possible.

Sure, I can check it out.

user435118

But then everyone could still see it once?

Deusovi

onetimesecret is a website that allows a single person to see a message once

user435118

I’ll try and get a clue in a few hours

bobble

Bye all!

Deusovi

See ya!

user435118

19:11

@Deusovi Um... not sure what to start with, do I start with a definition and work around that?

Deusovi

That's one possibility.

If you have an answer word, you should first figure out a possible wordplay structure or decomposition for that word. (It's usually best to have multiple possible options in mind just in case your first one doesn't work out very well.)

And then figure out how to define it and clue its wordplay.

user435118

I resort to a random word generator I guess

Deusovi

Yeah, coming up with answer words is also difficult - I usually just try to find words that have interesting wordplay.

user435118

I've got my word (I think)

Deusovi

(Also, I know that last part -- "figure out how to define it and clue its wordplay" -- probably sounds like a "draw the rest of the owl" step, but it's hard to give fully general advice.)

user435118

19:21

I think I've got my CCCC

user435118

I'll post it in ontimesecret, then you won't be able to answer it. Is that ok?

Deusovi

Sure.

user435118

Would you please be able to tell me if 1. It fits all the rules 2. How difficult it is

Deusovi

Sounds good - go ahead and send it over.

user435118

onetimesecret.com/secret/88qu2pmwr2de1e4ebz3zguielch2m8l

Deusovi

19:24

I think the definition doesn't match in part of speech. And I don't get how the last word is supposed to work.

Remember, your definition should be an exact synonym for the thing you're describing.

user435118

Oh, I've lost the secret

user435118

Anyway, lost it for good I guess

Deusovi

If you had the answer SUN, you couldn't define it with SHINES or BRIGHT, or vice versa.

I have the clue still - I can send it back if you'd like?

user435118

Nah, I've got a new word

msh210

@Deusovi or the latter can be an example of the former

Deusovi

19:29

(right, there are a few other edge cases too, but none of them really applied here)

user435118

Gosh, this is hard

user435118

Does the clue have to make grammatical sense?

msh210

Really it should. But problems that are only with the surface I think we can forgive a tyro.

Deusovi

Yeah, for a first clue the most important thing to focus on is making sure it's constructed well. Once you've got practice with various types of wordplay, then you'll be more able to mess with a clue until you get a smooth surface.

user435118

I think my next clue is a mess but I'll post a link anyway

msh210

19:41

The easiest kind to construct, I think, are two: 1, charades, where you take a long word, split it into multiple words that are not morphemes of the original word, and define all of the above one after the other; 2, where you literally spell out the entire thing using initial letters, like "A fish is the unitary neoclassicalism admirer at first (4)" for tuna. That second type is very easy to solve unless you include words that look like other types of cryptic indicators.

user435118

Actually I won't post a link because even the anagram isn't an actual word

Deusovi

You can anagram multiple words together - no problems there.

msh210

(unitary neoclassicalism admirer)

By the way, congrats on solving the C4.

user435118

Yeah, my clue is a total mess

user435118

I'll try a different word

user435118

19:46

@msh210 Thanks, after 1.5 hours :)

user435118

Anyway, this is what it got to (not an actual CCCC): Oversight adapted amid nitrogen is remove end trap beginning Tionesta (14)

user435118

I think I've got one

user435118

@Deusovi You ready for the link?

Deusovi

Sure.

user435118

onetimesecret.com/private/rkuqn09zramp1hxlzqvdluvny3z0vv5

Deusovi

19:57

Wrong link?

user435118

Oops

user435118

onetimesecret.com/secret/o0ncjvezz858kwu7vt1gyn1ycg9rvrm

Sphinx

0

Q: Calculation puzzle 006

Find the number which corresponds to the place indicated by the question mark. | 3 | 9 | 12 | 2 | 4 | |----------------------------------------| | 2 | 7 | 14 | 3 | 6 | |----------------------------------------| | 8 | 6 | 7 | 2 | 7 | |--...

mathematics calculation-puzzle

0

Q: Class Chess Tournament

A class of 36 students are expecting to play in the chess tournament held by Math Department. When the schoolmaster arrived he said "Lets start the games but first we must setup all the chess sets". But the schoolmaster did not bring any chess sets. Instead he brought two mahjong sets and packs ...

chess checkerboard

user435118

Oh I missed a letter

user435118

Otherwise, is it fine? If I add something for the letter

Deusovi

20:01

I have a few comments - one sec.

user435118

Ok, updated for letter: onetimesecret.com/secret/pxi10l5ltb83lvd37tbhxxim6vaojzg

Deusovi

Comments:

onetimesecret.com/secret/fa6v0ziecn7s3be4c894mm7g5uamwj2

user435118

Should I start again or modify it?

Deusovi

Up to you.

It seems like modifying it would be nearly starting again anyway.

user435118

Ah, what was the answer again?

Deusovi

20:07

Do you not have your original clue?

user435118

I do but not the answer

Deusovi

Then I'd recommend simplifying your clue so that you can solve it yourself.

I'd also recommend doing things in a text file or something. onetimesecret is not a great text editor.

user435118

When modifying it I deleted the answer (I think I remember how to solve it)

user435118

20:21

@Deusovi onetimesecret.com/secret/b4q8u3f4t3gm8l07gj98gluxw276vxl

Deusovi

If you want to extract some substring of a word in your clue, you have to specify exactly what to extract. The only exception here is 'hidden word' clues, where the full answer is directly hidden in the clue (and there are no other components being assembled with it). Seems fine other than that, though.

user435118

How do I specify it?

John Dvorak

could hidden parts be allowed if they are also specified in some other way?

(a hidden in b + c = d)

Deusovi

You can say, like, "person's fifth" for O.

Or "first half of [...]", or something.

@JohnDvorak Explain?

The answer's probably 'no' but I'm not sure exactly what you mean.

John Dvorak

as in, a haystack is given for a wordplay part alongside that part's definition

user435118

20:27

Not sure how to specify it in my clue?

user435118

Also how hard from 1-10 is my clue?

Deusovi

No, that wouldn't be allowed.

And I have no idea how to rate the clue's difficulty.

user435118

Would you be able to solve it quickly? (say 5 min)

Deusovi

Probably?

user435118

...

Deusovi

20:28

Can't say for sure but it doesn't seem too hard.

(Keep in mind that I've been solving jafe's crosswords in about 20-30 minutes each, and I have years and years of experience.)

user435118

Can I not specify the exact extraction then? To make it harder

Deusovi

I'd advise keeping it simple for your first clue, though. The word you chose doesn't look particularly easy to form.

No, you cannot.

user435118

@Deusovi At least you can't solve this one :P

user435118

Not sure how to specify the extraction then in my case

Deusovi

Oh, other people here have more experience than me. Gareth in particular.

I'm not trying to brag here, or say I'm particularly great at them - just saying that "5 minutes" is actually a fair bit of time.

@Daniil Here's one way to do it. onetimesecret.com/secret/q73jd9y1fauzc3wdq7mp6bzb5tqhh69

Gareth McCaughan

20:32

It's possible that I have more experience than Deusovi but I'm pretty sure I'm not better at solving cryptic clues than he is.

Deusovi

(And another comment is there too.)

~~shush, stop trying to outhumble me~~

user435118

Updated with my own method: onetimesecret.com/secret/5ipzclbevorx2hlw60jsxx8pyu2qhvq

Deusovi

The word after the hyphen now seems to not be doing anything.

user435118

Oh, is it not necessary for specifying an extraction?

Deusovi

Oh, I see what you're doing now.

You don't need to use that word and the word after then - you're already saying exactly what you wanted to extract. Why bother mentioning that it's also inside this other word?

user435118

20:36

Ok, so without the word it's fine?

Deusovi

Without those two words it's fine.

user435118

What? There's only one word

user435118

Post another secret?

jafe

can't wait to see this one :P

Deusovi

onetimesecret.com/secret/44zcl6m9zadnyz3b40ud2rj2r0jx703

user435118

20:40

👍

user435118

Let's post

user435118

CCCC: Spot-like joke - Catholic reversed it construct (10)

Deusovi

(uh one problem is still in there)

(the last word should be singular)

user435118

(the history is gone; you didn't see anything) :)

jafe

heheh

user435118

20:43

Thanks for the help @Deusovi

user435118

I'm guessing it will be solved quite quickly

user435118

I've never had so many [wordplay], one-time secret and definition tabs open before

jafe

googling to check if "punctiform" is a word... wish me luck

oh wait that is it

user435118

@jafe yep

jafe

pun + c for catholic + it reversed + form (construct)

user435118

20:48

👍

user435118

So much work for 7 minutes...

user435118

@jafe Was it quite easy?

Mithical

7 minutes isn't bad. I got 8 :P

jafe

"spot-like" doesn't have any short synonyms so i figured the def must be at that end... and "reversed" can pretty much only be an indicator :)

if there's an unusual word at the start or in the end and a common word at the other, the unusual one is often the definition

CCCC: Small part of cryptic clue leads to fighting (9)

(...not that that would ever happen on this channel)

btw what was the extraction you were talking about in that one?

user435118

Original clue: Spot-like joke - Catholic reversed 'it-in' construct (10)

jafe

21:00

@Mithical just checked and my first was solved in 3 min :O

Mithical

Ah, the 8 was on my most recent one

My first was solved within a minute

msh210

To part (hair) is to comb, sorta, and "comb" starts words that mean "fighting", but I'm pretty sure that's not it since "part" isn't at the start of the clue.

@jafe Oh, it's s+wordplay.

Very nice.

jafe

@msh210 thanks! that's correct, of course

msh210

This one is weak, but...

CCCC: Abhorrent shakes (sprinkled with epazote peel) on table (10)

user435118

DETESTABLE? Not sure about the first part yet, Table = Table

msh210

21:11

@Daniil Well, if you find the first part, we can talk. :-D

jafe

DTs is delirium tremens (the shakes)

user435118

Couldn't find anything, it's probably wrong

jafe

i think it's correct

msh210

Can one of you clarify? :-)

user435118

I can clarify the last part, not sure about the first part @jafe

user435118

21:20

Ah DTs sprinkled with epazote peel (an e between the letters)? + TABLE

jafe

yeah

two e's, because epazote

user435118

👍

user435118

If it's correct do you want to 'have it' or shall I?

jafe

you can go next

user435118

👍 Um... I think I'll need @Deusovi 's help to check the clue, is that ok?

user435118

21:22

@msh210 Is it correct?

jafe

i'm off to bed, g'night

Deusovi

Sure.

night!

user435118

I'll start with the random word generator in ~25 min

user435118

How can I make the clue harder or should I not concentrate on that for now?

msh210

@Daniil yes it is

Deusovi

21:24

Don't focus on difficulty. Your main priority should be making a valid clue, and second should be having a smooth surface.

msh210

@jafe and to you

Deusovi

Difficulty is not the same as fun. I've had bad experiences with clues that are intentionally overly difficult.

user435118

What do you mean by 'a smooth surface'?

Deusovi

The surface should read as close to a 'normal sentence' as possible.

It should be something that makes sense to read - it may sound a bit unusual, but it should still have some form of meaning. (Ideally, one that distracts from the actual interpretation required for the cryptic reading.)

Oh, sorry. "surface" is a term for the reading of the clue that ignores any form of cryptic wordplay - just reading it as if it were regular English.

msh210

"Escort having a drink with every single person (9)" (a recent clue here) actually reads like a real English sentence fragment -- just for example.

Even "Abhorrent shakes (sprinkled with epazote peel) on table (10)" does -- it's unusual but definitely grammatical and I can even imagine a scenario where it could possibly come up (if epazote has a peel. I didn't check that and ideally should've).

And what @Deusovi said that the surface reading ideally is such "that distracts from the actual interpretation required for the cryptic reading" -- that "Escort..." clue for example -- the definition half is actually "Escort". But the answer is "chaperone". That's not the meaning of "Escort" in the surface reading. So this is a great surface -- not only is it grammatical, not only is it sensible and might actually come up in conversation, but [continued]

[continued] it uses a word with a completely different meaning than you need in the cryptic clue.

But you'll get there. No rush.

bobble

21:37

Attempt No. 5! "Quite gay pasha, a pyromancer (5) -> HAPPY (hidden word)

msh210

@bobble You should have something indicating it's a hidden word, though. (Also, why is "Quite" there?)

bobble

"Quite gay" still means happy

and I like the word "quite"

I could add "hidden away" at the end

Deusovi

"X hidden away" does not mean "hidden inside X".

msh210

I'm unfamiliar with "quite gay" meaning anything different from "quite" + "gay" but YMMV.

bobble

I have to keep googling all the abbreviations :(

I'm trying to get at least 1 working clue

msh210

21:40

sorry... your mileage may vary. Meaning, it could be different for you -- or, in this context, it could be different in different dialects/registers/whatever

catb.org/jargon/html/Y/YMMV.html

msh210

21:52

@bobble Oh, also, "happy" doesn't appear there: "haapy" does.

bobble

:(

msh210

It took me this long to notice that, though. :-)

bobble

I'm trying to catch up on news, and my brain keeps focusing on random words and trying to produce clues for them

user435118

22:48

@Deusovi CCCC is ready for review, you ready?

Deusovi

Sure.

user435118

onetimesecret.com/secret/tvgbpid581qhzqoimo95oi8wzwdqtjs

Deusovi

Response: onetimesecret.com/secret/nvotpymqpz037rzag9mwsgee2m5jmi7

And once again, I really recommend using a simpler answer word.

user435118

Then it’s too easy :)

user435118

Regarding your first sentence, it’s the first letters of the words

Deusovi

22:54

If you want to use the first letters of some words, you need to indicate that you're using the first letters. Every piece of wordplay must be indicated directly: cryptic clues' wordplay is a sequence of instructions telling you precisely how to get to the answer.

And please, stop worrying about difficulty. What's more important is having a clue with sound wordplay, and second is a smooth surface. Difficulty is not the same thing as fun. Your goal in constructing a puzzle of any form should never be pure difficulty.

You can easily make a cryptic clue difficult by using synonyms that nobody would ever think of because they're 300 years out of date. But it won't be fun.

user435118

I’ll switch from the obscure word generator to the usual word generator :)

bobble

Attempt No.6! "Laments heartless decrees (4)" -> RUES

Deusovi

Looks good to me.

bobble

throws a party

I GOT ONE YAY YAY YAY

user435118

23:22

@Deusovi onetimesecret.com/secret/kvlk8s475lvc1bhy4qevvvfv8lazalf

user435118

@Deusovi ignore that, it didn’t save properly

user435118

@Deusovi here: onetimesecret.com/secret/s96571uziljbygi72vramfn73l3zl0t

user435118

(Let me know if you didn’t read it yet, I think it’s expired)

bobble

23:53

@Daniil, my "word generator" is reading news/books

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