The Sphinx's Lair

1:11 AM

can we please not let immature behavior from a few users reflect poorly on the potential of a puzzling Stack Exchange?

3

7:26 AM

@xnor is right.

9:21 AM

To whom it may concern (MODS):

I am writing here today with regard to a recent conversation that took place in this very chat room. I was in the chat room when a Mr Emrakul joined the room.

Assuming he was responsive due to the capabilities he displayed in joining the chat room, I began writing out a small paragraph with regard to the state of the site “puzzling.se”.

After I had finished pointing out a few aspects that I believe, as a frequent user of the site, needed to be addressed by someone who holds a little more power over the natural flow of the site, Mr Emrakul left the chat room rather hastily.

I assumed cowardly antics on his behalf, although I recently found out that he managed to join and leave whilst unconscious.

This blatant act of ignoring my words is what fuelled a flurry of anger, justified purely by the assumption that one cannot operate a computer while asleep.

I was hoping to garner a response from someone who would be able to point me in the right direction but found instead a certain Mr Geobits telling me to hush down and swallow a proverbial chill pill, even though a Mr Victor was making very valid points and counterarguing most of the points that Mr Geobits made.

I would like to point out here that a Mr AE posting two pictures trying to make light of the situation was completely irrelevant and undoubtedly deserved to be hushed down.

Later on, the completely valid issues brought to the chat room were washed away: not only the hilarious put down to Doorknob but also the valid points surrounding it were deleted. This is what is now causing concern.

If one cannot extrapolate the relevant information from a conversation and instead decide to wash it all away, this is a form of dictatorship and completely against what the moderators of the site are specifically placed there for.

Not only do I have no confidence in the moderation team to deal successfully with civil disobedience, but they are also ineffective in quelling issues that have surrounded the site for a month now, claiming that a simple tag change will of course bring peace to the community. It is extremely obvious this is not the case and I am the proof.

Thank you for your time and attention regarding this matter.

Assuring you of my complete attention regarding this matter,

Kind Regards

Oblongamous

P.s shog9 your opinions are irrelevant to be honest you describe this site as a joke and therefore relinquish any rellevancy in the conversation. I ask you reframe from contributing as your opinions seem very emotive and clearly doesnt want the site to succeed

9:56 AM

I'm not going to condemn Avigrail and Oblongamous for their confrontational stance and offensive language two days ago; I fully understand where they're coming from and why they're upset. However, tarring me and Victor with the same brush is uncalled for. Check through the chat transcript. Neither of us said anything offensive to the mods or anyone else.

We - and also Avigrail and Oblongamous, in fact - were trying to raise some important points about what's going on right now in the Puzzling.SE community. The same points, more or less, as Victor raised in his recent post on meta; we were hoping the other moderators could respond to that as you have, @Emrakul, so that we have a clear unanimous statement from The Moderators (like the clear unanimous statement that caused all the row and is now tagged status-declined).

The fact that the debate deteriorated into an insult-flinging contest is regrettable, but that doesn't make our original points less valid.

So I found @Emrakul's comment "All it amounts to is three people teaming up to give moderators hell" quite offensive, since the 'three people' referred to appeared to be Oblongamous, Victor and myself.

user61230

I'm frankly completely confused about what these points are, and what the argument is at this point.

user61230

Who's arguing what, and what points are they using?

First of all, it has started since your dubbed "condemed" attempt at banning everything.

which ultimately failed

theres more people who want the challenged to exist

so you flip flop like any good politician and say its all about quality

this has been up in the air for far to long

user61230

[sighs]

you and the community are dictating what quality is

yet you have not even decided

10:07 AM

@Emrakul I'm arguing that the famous Mods' Meta Post has brought a tangible change for the worse (even if changes for the better in some ways too), and that we need a clear unanimous statement from the mods to bring some respect and ceasefire to the site

I think other people feel the same way

user61230

I don't see fighting or disagreement at all at this point.

user61230

Who's disagreeing?

user61230

But seriously, here's what happened. We made a proposal to nudge the site back within the Stack Exchange core mission. Robert didn't step in - it's not like we were going to force this down your throats without consensus - but provided a good reason why this didn't make sense.

user61230

That's really, truly, completely, all that happened.

Why have you not retracted it, I have still had comments now deleted saying that they are off topic

A: Are puzzles and riddles welcome?

10:09 AM

9

I'm personally content with challenges on Puzzling, for a multitude of reasons which I'll list briefly here. Question and answer quality on the main site are up significantly. People are downvoting questions and closing questions, which wasn't happening before. Meta discussion on quality is u...

user61230

It's tagged with status-declined, Robert's answer is accepted, and the change hasn't been implemented. What more do you want?

either your philosophy or expert Q's for experts is not being read or its not true. People are still exerting their own authority

@Emrakul - It wasn't a proposal. It was an edict. "If you disagree with this, then Stack Exchange is not for you."

user61230

@randal'thor Once again, you're taking that quote out of the context of the paragraph it was in.

There was a lot more in comments making that even more abundantly clear, but you lot went around deleting loads of comments after Robert pulled rank on you.

(Do you think that's honest, btw? But never mind.)

10:12 AM

stop

please, just stop

@Emrakul OK, more quotes from the same paragraph.

"All SE network sites must fulfill this purpose, otherwise the site will cease to be."

we already had jon ericson come in because of the fiasco in chat last night

i don't care for any personal grievances

he's not contributing, he's just telling us to shut up

i just don't want this site to be shot down

and mods (SE mods) have made it clear that these arguments are evaporating what support puzzling has in SE

Jon Ericson's and Shog's posts mentions this multiple times

can you please just back off on the issue for the sake of the site?

@Emrakul "the change hasn't been implemented. What more do you want?" - A clear statement from the mods to say it hasn't been and won't be implemented.

10:15 AM

maybe then @xnor the issues should be dealt with, not deleted and swept under the carpet eh? otherwise it will evaporate

If you just 'let the community take care of it', people are going to keep squabbling about whether such-and-such a question should be allowed because it's a challenge question

@emrakul sounds good. some rules should be sety, maybe quality control, my riddles and lots of others riddles are considered low quality. Were turning into yahoo answers????

i really don't want to be dragged into this, but i'll listen for a bit

(Note that no change would have been there at all if users hadn't complained)

can you please, in short, tell me what issues exist now?

what is happening that you don't like?

10:17 AM

@Emrakul Maybe these squabbles will fade with time, but ATM we're still getting people quoting your Big Meta Post and saying 'challenge questions are off-topic'. Why can't you and @Doorknob冰 and @Kevin just say something clear on meta to the effect that 'we dun goofed' (as Doorknob put it in chat) and the Big Meta Post is no longer valid?

It feels like we are fighting for a better community and someone pops in occasionally and edits all the riddles.

taking away identity from people by removing parts of the riddl

how are riddles getting edited that is making you unhappy?

@Emrakul I appreciated the fact that you made an effort to answer Victor's meta post; kudos to you for that. Do @Doorknob冰 and @Kevin support what you said? It sounds like your personal opinion rather than a mods' policy.

Headlines, close-votes without knowing the answer (I exclude you from the list here)

10:19 AM

is this happening recently?

could you please link me to some examples?

user61230

> status-declined:
> Indicates that a request (usually a feature request) has been considered, but will not be implemented. Generally speaking, a developer will leave a comment as to why, or the community will come to consensus that the request is unnecessary.

@xnor - If you went and read the discussion in here from 2 days ago, you'd know what he's on about. We provided examples then.

@randal'thor I did in fact

i went through the questions and explained my vote on each

@Emrakul - People keep quoting that tag, but a tag is a VERY SUBTLE WAY of saying something. How many people even bother reading the tags on meta?

Would it hurt so much to make a new post on meta, and unite the community once again?

I gave an example of why Tags are to subtle and would not get away with it If i was to write a extensive paragraph about someone who is a certain something and then said status declined. It just wouldnt float

10:22 AM

this one has no close votes: puzzling.stackexchange.com/questions/6167/…

rather than beating around the bush with these mealy-mouthed statements about tags and 'it was only a proposal'

this one has no close votes: puzzling.stackexchange.com/questions/5603/…

one of the ones mentioned had one close vote

has there been a question that got closed that you're unhappy got closed?

which one are you talking about?

@randal'thor: To butt in at this point, I'd argue it's because the post *is largely valid*. The main *point* of the post has been ruled out by @Robert Cartaino, i.e. that all challenges are off-topic. But it doesn't hide the fact that there is an issue with challenges and riddles and the Stack higher-ups aren't happy. Whether it's the mods on this site, Robert Cartaino, Jon Ericson, Shog9 - they're all agreed that the community needs to change to make these challenges/riddles etc more sustainable and discussion and agreement among the community is needed to make this happen.

As to why I care/comment - this site fascinates me. I wouldn't go quite as far as Shog9, but I think it has potential - but not as it is (although I fully admit I'm not really an active member, but rather a background snooper/puzzle fanatic)

Seems like you don't post riddles yourself, sir

are you referring to me?

10:26 AM

No, to Andrew

user61230

I'm going to say this much: I haven't seen any instances on the main site yet of a user, on their own, independently reference that meta post thinking it was already implemented as policy.

@AndrewMartin The fact that challenge puzzles can be linked to on topic discussion on Puzzling Se has been confirmed with a tag, and then with a post saying it needs to be of HIGH quality yet you who brand the need for quality havent decided upon it yourself?

@AndrewMartin You're not an active member, but you expect to have a say in how the site is run?

so not only do we have an issue with the fact you have not made it clear enough that these puzzles can go ahead, you have effiecently made people not want to post because quality has not been controlled

i'm still looking for an answer to my question: what has actually happened on the site that is making you unhappy?

10:28 AM

xnor, we've had a discussion before and you obviouly dont listen to people

@randal'thor: Not at all. I'm simply sharing my views. I pitch in now and again, but largely say nothing as I'm not an active member or a mod and thus my views shouldn't carry the same weight yours do.

@avigrail i took a look of time to investigate your question, one that others closed without nearly as much effort

@Oblongamous: It's not up to me, no. But the recent meta posts and comments from the higher-ups make it clear. It's up to YOU, the community - but right now, the current rules aren't satisfactory or sustainable, in their opinion.

@avigrail just because I did not come to the conclusion you want does not mean i don't listen

@Oblongamous: I suppose it could be summarised as: "Challenge questions are still on-topic. But not as they are now. Change them to make them more sustainable. How is up to you."

10:30 AM

wow

user61230

Let's cut the ad hominem arguments.

2

please, just answer my question

@Emrakul - Can you answer me one thing before I leave?

what is happening on the site that is making you unhappy?

there's been a lot of discussion, so i'm sorry if i missed some

please just give me a brief summary

well, this is a fun place...

user61230

10:32 AM

@rand Probably.

@AndrewMartin it is not up to me, my "credability" according to some members is in decline. So if they are to post something retracting things and stating to all that puzzles are on topic, then a discussion about quality can take place. This has been going on for a month now

user61230

If it's an actual, genuine question I can probably answer it.

@Oblongamous: On one further note, whilst I understand you're unhappy, telling @Shog9 to stop contributing as he's not an active user is most definitely not going to happen. If you're unaware of who he is, you can look him up on the Stack Exchange. He's a Community Coordinator. His job is to oversee, contribute and aid in the development of sites like this.

are your questions getting closed for not being on topic?

are people commenting that your questions don't belong on the site?

@Emrakul It's about the moderators as a group, but since you're the only one here atm, hopefully you can answer

10:33 AM

@AndrewMartin His status is alien to me, his emotive thoughts on the site however are not, this site is a joke?? Do you really want someone who holds those thoughts to be contributing to a site your hoping to make better

Why do the moderators not want to make a new post on meta to refute clearly the famous no-challenge edict? What would be wrong with this?

regardless, Shog9 is one of the people in charge of the SE network

sorry, I should have put an @Emrakul on that

@Oblongamous: I think it's because your statement isn't quite true. Puzzles can be on topic. But as they are currently stand, they're not a great fit as they aren't sustainable, as @Jon Ericson commented. So to post they are all on-topic again would suggest a return to how things were - which is not what is wanted here. In other words, things have changed permanently since that post.

user61230

@rand See, that's not a question I can answer in a way I haven't already. It would be superfluous and unnecessary. If people were confused on the main site, it might be helpful to clarify, but nobody's confused. Maybe rarely, in isolated cases, that are cleared up with a single comment.

user61230

10:36 AM

That's my personal opinion, not me speaking for the moderators as a whole.

the fact he thinks this site is a joke and his opinion that the sites not worth it? is regardless to him having an oversight of the site that were trying to find identity for? that doesnt sake mense

@Oblongamous: Regardless of his views, he's a colossal member of the Stack Exchange and should be listened to and considered, given his prominence. He's not going away.

@AndrewMartin I see where you are coming from. in the statement you just made is the reason why they were banned in the first place, the reason why Robert explained that it would be detrimental to erase 90% of the sites posts. Are you suggesting they flip flop, and now flip again?

I get the feeling at times that people want this site to be a self-contained exception to the Stack format. Robert Cartaino already explained it is being treated as a special case. But it doesn't have carte blanche on what it can do. It still needs to follow many of the Stack tenets, e.g. driving traffic from search engines.

Currently, it doesn't look like this is sustainable. As the site is still in Beta, one of the goals is to lead it down a path of sustainability, hence why so many mods have been getting involved.

@Emrakul You think it would be 'superfluous and unnecessary', but would it do any harm? It's clear that some site users would be much happier if you did this. Can you humour us, or is there some reason it would be bad for the site to make absolutely clear what you believe is already clear to almost everyone?

10:38 AM

his status is regardless to the site if he believs it doomed from the start

@Oblongamous: No. There's no point removing old posts. But new posts can certainly be tidied up and clarified. There's plenty of old, now off-topic posts on SO. But they remain, as it would be a waste of time to remove them. Instead, from this point on, challenge questions will be a different beast to what they are currently.

At least that's my interpretation of events.

@randal'thor if you were to choose what you want the mods to post, what would be a two-sentence summary?

@AndrewMartin Does this mean that you say we keep the old posts, but slowly dissect the users that utilise this site for getting potential feedback on challenge puzzles they have created, in the end creating a utopia of questions about puzzles?

I was a click away from joining....however

on a different note, I want to say: The site has really gotten better lately. I'm pretty happy with the quality of it. Great job changing the site for the better!

3

10:43 AM

@xnor To answer your question, something like "The ban on challenge questions [link] is invalid. Puzzles, challenges, and riddles are on-topic and very welcome (provided they're not opinion-based etc.)."

user61230

@rand Right now, that post is not an issue. I don't see confused people.

@Oblongamous: I'm not sure I 100% understand what you mean, but to phrase it in my own words: Keep what's there. It's old, it's there, it's done. From this point on, ensure any new challenge questions/riddles are sustainable (if such a thing is possible). Don't personalise them.

Don't fill them with references to current site users that make them uninteresting/unsearchable to people outside the site. Make them sustainable. Then, when the next site review comes up, the amount of traffic from search engines can be reevaluated. Then further changes can be made, if required. That's what being in Beta is all about.

user61230

@SabreTooth Sorry about this. It's a little hectic at the moment.

Tinkering a popular idea to make it sustainable and enjoyable for the community, but also appealing/attractive to future members. Currently, the site is doing one of those things (arguably!) - not the other.

@randal'thor: What else is in your etc though? THAT needs to be decided before any definitive meta post can be made on the issue, hence all the recent discussion.

@randal'thor that seems totally reasonable, actually. I think a new post about it would be overkill though.

10:44 AM

@Emrakul yes, it seems a bit hectic indeed - the changes are what attracted me to the site

@Emrakul - But that doesn't answer my question! "You think it would be 'superfluous and unnecessary', but would it do any harm? It's clear that some site users would be much happier if you did this. Can you humour us, or is there some reason it would be bad for the site to make absolutely clear what you believe is already clear to almost everyone?"

user61230

@rand Because it would be redundant.

@AndrewMartin the idea I have had about what you want from a site, is that it has googleability, most personal puzzles wont be what someone googles/bings whatever is your poison. So the feeling that challenge setters are getting is of unwatedness

user61230

@SabreTooth Hmm? I'm curious?

@emrakul this is hectic? in your opinion this is hectic as in frantic or frenzied???

10:47 AM

@Emrakul - Redundant but not harmful? So does it come down to 'you don't want to spend time writing something that you think is redundant'? If I (or someone else) composed a meta post and sent it to you, would you be willing to spend a few seconds clicking the 'post question' button on meta?

@Oblongamous: That's one of the tenets of the Stack Exchange. 90% of traffic (eventually) should come from search engines (which is why all the site reviews involve testing the searchability of questions)

@Emrakul I'll wait until the hectic tirades are over with to explain what I mean

@Emrakul I agree it would be redundant, but it seems like it would make some users much happier. What if the mods posted a comment on the top-voted answer on riddles/puzzles being on topic saying, "We, the mods, respect the community's wishes as indicated by this question and have no problem with challenges and riddles being on topic as a category." meta.puzzling.stackexchange.com/a/1681/4551

2

user61230

@SabreTooth No worries!

@AndrewMartin So you dont make the rules, you just abide by them and eradicate albeit it slowly the slight mutations that occur across sites?

10:48 AM

I'll sit back and watch the show for now

@Oblongamous: I don't understand what you mean. Could you rephrase that?

I think you're all missing the point to an extent. These questions are not on-topic in the form they currently have, hence any indication by the mods to that extent would be wrong. Their proposal to remove them totally has been shot down by Robert Cartaino. That does not mean that they're all on-topic. It's now for the community to decide what should be on-topic, within the framework of the Stack Exchange. Thus community discussion (like this!) is needed.

@AndrewMartin Re Googleability, have you seen this ongoing discussion?

@AndrewMartin You abide by the rules 90%, through search engines, needs to be googleable and so on. personally created puzzles do not fit this bill, rather than make exceptions or maybe think of the positives this brings.

any mutations occuring such as this site, needs to be subdued? slowly but surely

yes, we need to make a case for being a bit more accomodating in the SE model

@randal'thor: I have, thanks

10:51 AM

from what Im getting from our discussion is that you are a silent puzzler maybe looking through finding something you found QI. Alas you have to say goodbye to that future?

and from your very objective stance, you dont care enough to ask why this is happening?

QI = quite interesting

From this it seems that the mods were doing right by the site in the first place is that true?

@Oblongamous: And what the moderators and higher-ups in the Stack Exchange are not so much hinting as much as actively telling you is - your site will change to an extent to conform to some of their rules.

2

If you're unhappy about this, or the majority of the community is unhappy, then perhaps the Stack Exchange isn't the best fit for it. There are plenty of other puzzling sites out there that could be better suited to these questions.

That's not meant as a threat, or a warning, or in any way to sound vindictive or menacing. It's just my interpretation of what both Shog9, Jon Ericson etc have been saying.

By all means keep puzzling and riddling and challenging - but as things stand, it's not viable in the long term and thus the site will remain in Beta before being closed. To make it more viable, some changes will need to occur. What these changes are is totally up to you - but some things, e.g. primarily site traffic coming from search engines, will need to be fulfilled. How they are fulfilled is up to you. Again, I'm keen to stress this is just my interpretation.

unfortunately, higher-ups have said conflicting things as to whether the different model of puzzling will be accommodated by stack exchange

they have said that there are both detractors and supporters within SE

it seems like they are not settled about it

until they make a decision, we need to put our best foot forward

user61230

Challenge questions are a very, very strange edge case in the Stack Exchange platform, and I am completely unsurprised that there is no uniform official stance on the matter.

3

agree with both @AndrewMartin and @xnor

@xnor: I think that's spot on, and suggests to me that something needs to change, but no one quite knows what. In fact, I'd argue no one really cares that much - as long as certain tenets such as traffic coming from search engines are maintained.

@Emrakul: Spot on.

10:57 AM

@AndrewMartin Puzzling will end. Why will it have closed? would it be because you tried to change the definition of puzzling, or because people like be likened the mods to female genitalia

@AndrewMartin We riddlers spend hours and sometimes days to craft riddles and then we feel $%!@**ed when we are treated like this.

and when is this unform official stance going to be taken?

Im interested in this, too.

If Puzzling closing because SE deems it unviable for its model, i will be sad. If Puzzling gets closed because people "likened the mods to female genitalia", i will be more sad and very angry at those people.

5

So i can tell my grandchildren where I was when the famous Stack exchange puzzling died?

user61230

10:59 AM

@Oblongamous Uniform policy grows through experience. We won't see uniform policy because we are a steppingstone toward that uniform policy.

@emrakul no we are not.... What part of this conversation has actually resolved anything

If anything at all It has just rekindled the idea that they are going to have will have been definelty going to be off topic in the near, distance sometime in the future

policy won't happen if the people deciding said policy are refered to as "female genitalia"

@Oblongamous: I would suspect it would be because there are limits to what the site will be bent into. No one ever said the Stack Exchange is free of rules besides what the community wants. There has always been basic rules that are followed. Thus, conform to an extent is something that's simply expected. Why wouldn't it be, considering the site is being run entirely on their hardware? As for mods/female genitalia - that's just childish and certainly does not help the cause.

We have been straight up told that some people in SE support the site and others do not. We have also been told that the name-calling and arguments that have happened are eroding the support we have.

2

I am not wanting to make policy.... I dont want any form of diamond anywhere near me

11:01 AM

@Oblongamous - OK, that 'female genitalia' remark was lowering the tone a bit.

user61230

@Oblongamous Diamond moderators don't craft policy in the ideal situation. The community does.

@avigrail: And ultimately many of the current challenges and riddles pose no use to future users, and thus are not a good fit for the Stack Exchange. They may be very welcome on other sites and you could certainly find plenty of them with a few google searches. Alternatively, you could create your own site. But if you're on this site, it seems to me that some changes are needed to the existing questions, given what the mods/higher-ups have been saying.

2

@AndrewMartin You have fixated on one aspect of my statement I have made which was in the past I was just referencing it to label myself as one who does not want to hold a position of power on the website, I just want clarity which is not happening.

@AndrewMartin you need to change a challenge puzzle to make it googleable

@xnor - Thanks for your support on the issue of a clear new post from the mods. Anyone else support me on this? @Oblongamous? @avigrail? Please star this post if you'd like to see the mods make a meta post saying something like "The ban on challenge questions [link] is invalid. Puzzles, challenges, and riddles as a whole (though of course there might be a few bad eggs) are on-topic and very welcome."

6

@AndrewMartin This not useful for this discussion. Since you keep repeating yourself from an irrelevant point of view I can't see your eligibility here.

11:04 AM

@avigrail: I don't understand why it's irrelevant? Could you elaborate? Thanks

@Oblongamous: Apologies - I wasn't trying to imply you were imposing site policy. What I'm trying to show is that currently the site needs to change. Change it however you like, but it does need to change.

user61230

@rand It's not going to happen because of a few stars in chat. Any sort of clarification would happen because of persistent confusion among established members of the community. But there's nothing to clarify. Nobody's confused. What would that post accomplish?

@randal'thor: You're never going to get that posted on meta - "though of course there might be a few bad eggs". That's far too vague for meta. Instead, more discussion should be had to clarify what is on-topic/off-topic. If you posted your proposal, as it stood, it would be extremely unclear what was on or off-topic.

@AndrewMartin I can't explain without insulting people. So I will keep it to myself for the sake of moderation.

Hey all. Cryptic Christmas card for you:

geez

11:07 AM

first to get it wins a free hat

@Emrakul What about just a comment on the "vote up if you like challenges and riddles" post?

@Jez this surface really has low brilliance :D

@AndrewMartin What is on topic? as at present you have reverted the opinion of the majority of puzzling.se

@Emrakul - "What would that post accomplish?" Clarity. Agreed with @xnor that a comment would also do, but it should still be clearly from all three mods and not just a personal opinion of one of them.

@avigrail: Do you mean me? There's no need to insult, just explain yourself carefully and concisely.

@randal'thor: But you don't have clarity?

user61230

11:10 AM

@rand Once again: who is confused?

@emrakul I

And @AndrewMartin

@AndrewMartin There is need to insult if being 100% honest.

@avigrail erm, that isn't very Christmassy

@Oblongamous: Have I? I see lots of conflicting opinions on what is on-topic, with the overriding one seeming to be (they should be on topic, but we're not sure beyond that)

@Jez is the (6,5) relevant?

11:11 AM

@Emrakul To be clear, I do not at all support the flak the mods have gotten lately, and I not saying the mods are required to justify or defend themselves. Or even that anyone is confused. But, people have said that this gesture would mean a lot to them.

@randal'thor Lowering the tone just "a bit"? It's been footbullet city from you and Oblong in here lately. The obscenity and name-calling we're getting from you two is seriously harming the cause you say you support. I can't think of anything more counter-productive you two could be doing.

3

i think it's the length of the words

silent light?

pun on silent night?

what about the F10 and F1 though

candle light

11:12 AM

@AndrewMartin I gave you a statement and you fixated on Female Genitalia (put that into context) but you didnt answer

@avigrail: Of course there's not. You'll never get through business life like that! Simply be clear, concise, don't use name calling, moderate your phrases and say what you think. Imagine you were writing an email in work. You can't swear, you can't be unprofessional. So - professionally explain your statement

i reckon silent night is right but i didnt get the F keys relevance :-)

remember the "Be Nice" rule

@Oblongamous There is no context in which that would be acceptable.

@Jez maybe just that those are the function keys those symbols appear on?

11:13 AM

@AE - That is unfair. What did I say that was offensive? Point fingers at Avigrail and Oblongamous if you like (though as I said above, I can understand where they're coming from), but I haven't compared anyone to female genitalia or anything else in this chat.

@AndrewMartin If I were to say "You are stupid", well than I would say it like that. Nothing is showing the message more properly.

@Oblongamous The casual misogyny alone is unacceptable, regardless of context.

@randal'thor Yesterday was mostly you and Oblong, wasn't it? Apologies if this is a case of mistaken identity.

@AE - No, it was Avigrail and Oblong.

@randal'thor Was it?

@AE I assure you that if you read a bit more of this conversation youd understand

11:14 AM

@Oblongamous: Apologies then. I thought I had explained your other statement

@AndrewMartin Maybe i misunderstood please rephrase?

I want puzzles. You want puzzles. The community wants puzzles. What we need is for higher-ups in SE to also want puzzles. And one of the ways we make that happen is by being a good, civil puzzling community.

@avigrail: "Your opinion doesn't make sense". "I disagree with your logic". There are loads of ways!

@xnor wanting something means little when the site calls for something that you dont want

I understand people have disagreements, but are those worth risking the site?

11:15 AM

@avigrail: And it's the only way to get people on side. Insults/rudeness never works.

@Oblongamous No. Insults and misogyny are both wildly inappropriate regardless of context. Your name-calling is doing nothing but harm here.

@xnor the site is already at risk

@AndrewMartin How does this imply that I think you are stupid?

@AndrewMartin you are losing information there.

@Oblongamous It definitely is, much moreso after yesterday. We can't afford more bad publicity.

user61230

This room was placed in timeout for 30 minutes; the topic of this room is "General discussion for puzzling.stackexchange.com. Why is this room called The Green Llama? Do you find that puzzling? Well there you go." - conversation should be limited to that topic.

user61230

11:17 AM

Okay, this is where I draw the line.

user61230

This chatroom can be a place for constructive discussion. It absolutely can.

user61230

But ad hominem attacks create bitter and spiteful arguments.

user61230

When we come back in thirty minutes, let's cut the personal attacks. All of them.

user61230

We're here to improve Puzzling Stack Exchange, and discuss what does and does not need to be done. We're not here to attack each other.

7

user61230

That's all I have to say right now before I go to sleep. I strongly suggest getting up from your computers and clearing your thoughts and emotions.

user61230

11:26 AM

It's three thirty, and I have to be up in four hours. I'm going to sleep. Goodnight!

11:48 AM

For clarification –@AndrewMartin I didnt mean any offense thus the reason I added to put it in context. I had no intention in forcing people to think you are fixating on something that could be construed something else, firstly does that sake mense. Also does it also mean I could get told that my height is adequate and doesnt need to change? (drastically anyway) @AE

@Oblongamous: I'm a little confused and I don't think it makes total sense - but no, I wasn't offended in any way, so don't worry about that.

Thank you

Interesting. What do we do now?

@Oblongamous: No problem at all

I understand my previous discrepencies and still think they caused enough attention to be brought that maybe this can be sorted out.

11:50 AM

Carry on discussing, by all means. There were some curt comments, so the suggestion would be not to repeat them or reference them.

Ultimately, do what you'd like - in about 15 minutes I'm leaving for my office Christmas party, so I'm not hanging around long :)

So better leave now

As it stands From @AndrewMartin Perception we/he may not like it but they are inevitably off topic and we have to suck it up, and leave our now off topic posts to the redicule of future users who will brand it off topic nonsensical jibberish?

@avigrail: I can see you're frustrated, but you really do need to learn to phrase your frustrations into professional language, rather than abstaining from the conversation. There are plenty of ways to discuss things without insults or rudeness. Generally, when rudeness appears the argument is lost, as the other person immediately has the moral high ground. You simply need to think about what you need to say, strip out any insulting part and say it. It happens every day in business, trust me!

or they have to go through a process' to become valid questions possible destroying the act of challenge puzzling anyway

@Oblongamous: I'm not mod, but my interpretation is this: challenges etc are NOT off-topic, but what constitutes being on-topic is unknown and is still being debated by the community. When an answer to this is forthcoming, then more clarification can be given. That's just my interpretation of events at least.

@Oblongamous: It's difficult to say. Largely it seems to be: "change what you're doing as it's not sustainable. But what you change it to is up to you". In other words, the community still has final say on what they will become, but they're being nudged in a particular direction to make the site sustainable.

@Oblongamous: Whether that destroys the quality of questions, only time will tell. If you feel so, you could set up your own site or something similar. Hopefully, the quality of questions will remain and the site will become sustainable = everybody wins. Hopefully.

11:55 AM

@AndrewMartin My opinion is that you better leave instead of using the 15 you have left to start a discussion. Because it will cause you to leave the conversation in the middle of the discussion. (50 words instead of "better leave now" 3 words, simple)

@avigrail: Well, I'll hang around until then just to see what's happening. This is just running in the background, so it's no real issue.

@AndrewMartin Puzzlers... Change or leave. You have said alot already

People have to learn to deal with input

Anyway, Oblo we seem to be left alone

@Oblongamous: I'm not a mod and this is certainly not a definitive policy. But that's what I take from both Jon Ericson's helpful comments on the site review and Shog9's comments. The site, as it stands, won't leave Beta due to a few issues and thus change to make the site more sustainable is needed. HOW that change happens is up to you, but it does need to happen.

Of course, I could be totally wrong, but as someone who has followed the meta discussions quite closely, that seems to be the jist of it. To reiterate, I'm not commanding or telling anyone to do anything. I'm merely a background observer. But that's what I'm picking up.

@avigrail: I agree. But not rudeness. Never rudeness.

Rudness is what you take it for

12:02 PM

@avigrail: True, but some things are obviously rude. Insults, for example. There's just no exuse.

@AndrewMartin You are no mod I know, you have stated it enough to cover your backside from your comments :D. You however have 20k reputation? I assume thats what the number is under your picture, a reputable personality such as yourself has quite an impact on peoples views.

@Oblongamous: True. My rep is all in the Movies & TV site. We're coming out of Beta (soon! 1000+ days and counting!).

To deny the power of your status like shog would be foolish, which is why i asked him to stop contributing

@Oblongamous: I just find myself drawn to this Puzzling site. It's fascinating and there's such a divergence of views.

@Oblongamous: Note I'm nothing like Shog. He most definitely should be listened to and respected. He feels the site is a joke. So it's up to the community to try and change his mind. Again, that's a fairly standard business use. I'm currently developing a system that my boss loves, his boss loves and his boss thinks is a waste of time. It's up to us to convince him otherwise. Nothing else to do but try!

so apart from being a deviant to site policy, what are your views on puzzling site,

this is subjective mind you

therefore I grant you diplomatic immunity from personal opinion when its asked for :D

12:07 PM

I like the site.

a beautiful description

Q: Murder of the President - Part 6

I think many of the questions though need improvement. For example, I detest a lot of the titles, which I find meaningless unless you open the puzzle.

I also dislike the amount of lateral answers which aren't really in the spirit of the question

I like the dedicated user base

Although in the wake of this challenges/puzzles scandal (dare I say puzzle-gate!), I've been disappointed by not just some users and their language/attitude/behaviour and comments

2

Puzzling — BOUNTY!

6

This is Part 6 of the Murder of the President brainteaser/riddle series. If you have not already, check out the answers for Murder of the President - Part 1 posted by Nit, Murder of the President - Part 2 and Murder of the President - Part 3 both posted by Joe Z., Murder of the President - Part 4...

i.e. I feel there is too much anger as opposed to discussion and clear headedness.

I think the site CAN survive - but I think the site DOES need to change. If someone like Shog9 has such a poor opinion of the site currently, it doesn't bode well. It's up to the community to change it.

I take it the names are such as mine Name that Sandwich and such. I can assure you that its not there to be an annoyance

12:09 PM

We cant change it

So... yeah. That's my views! I like this place a lot, I visit it a lot for random question browsing - but I don't think as it stands it is not sustainable.

@Oblongamous: It's a good point, although it could be argued that the poster of the question identifies that.

If you are to look at peoples questions, riddles or what not they have unique distinct way of being written metaphorican word building and a few other methods

if you are to like one with Name that sandwich you might like others as with Are you clever enough

I agree - but the poster of the question can identify that.

remember at present we dont follow the strict rules of stack exchange and untill dictated as it being wrong I believe its a nice way to know what sort of puzzle your getting yourself into

at the beginning of a riddle If i said this is all metaphors it ruins the deducing straight away

I agree with you. It's just my personal opinion that I dislike them, and I certainly don't think they're sustainable/searchable for in the long run. But that is just me.

12:16 PM

but knowing by repitition like it becomes habitual is a plesent way of distributing knowledge

If puzzling.se is to have any change of surviving we need to deviate

Andrew and Joe could be brothers haha

@bobbee: Who's Joe?

@Someone who doesn't like offensive language just like you

@Oblongamous: Reputation doesn't matter. As long as your contribution is valid and sustainable. I think the higher-ups are saying the site does have a chance to survive, it can deviate a small amount, but it also must follow some rules. Hopefully it will be able to. If not, then yeah, it won't survive.

@bobbee: I don't, no. It's just unnecessary. I don't mind it in general banter to be fair, just not when it's used insultingly or aggressively.

2

Right I've got to run folks. Christmas is a-calling. Talk soon

12:37 PM

hi @hichris123

hichris123

hi

how are you going?

been posting a bit on ES

hichris123

@SabreTooth Finals week. :/