To steal a car is a crime and crimes are prosecuted according to laws. To buy milk is an option: why do you need it?

so you do know you shouldn't steal the car @MauroALLEGRANZA

Yes, having no knowledge of the existing laws is no excuse.

Having said that, what does it mean "to have no moral knowledge"? we are "trained" by our parents, by school, by our social interfaces.

i am talking about moral non-cognitivism, but in general i feel unable to justify any moral belief i have @MauroALLEGRANZA

and in that sense i have no moral knowledge @MauroALLEGRANZA haha i quite miss my moral intuition tbh D: it doesn't do anything and is completely false, but it has a certain almost erotic charm haha

1) Moral rules have a goal. If you are still alive, you have them. 2) there's no formal justification to morals. If you have them wrong, you get isolated, imprisoned or death. If you are not, chances are you have them sufficiently fine for your goals.

are they beliefs @RodolfoAP ? i get that you mean they evolve from the need to escape punishment. but i think we agree that there is no way to justify them beyond appeal to retribution. i make that claim from experience, that people who get away with it always keep doing it

Morals are rules, eg. "be honest". If you want to call that a belief, ok. But rules are strictly not beliefs.

so we have no moral knowledge, as that requires a belief component @RodolfoAP i thought

Knowledge can be a set of beliefs, but the objects of knowledge (eg. rules or apples) are not beliefs.

so we can justify the moral rules we hold by appealing to it generally being how people behave @RodolfoAP

what about when those rules don't seem to work for the benefit of those who act according to them @RodolfoAP i cannot think of any clear examples of endemic self harm, but what about voting for the republicans haha

"In general i feel unable to justify any moral belief i have". That is concerning. Does this mean your moral beliefs are not motivated by anything like wellbeing or fairness?

i'm not sure i have any moral beliefs @Futilitarian usually yes, i am concerned by well-being and fairness. but it seems i cannot justify all my moral beliefs to others, and i am not sure i can just give up some

so i think you're a vegetarian @Futilitarian imagine you are surrounded by people that think that extreme physical torment is morally wrong but not for animals, and there is no showing them otherwise. if you do not give up your aversion to torturing animals, then can you still justify your belief that torturing any sentient life is wrong? if you cannot justify it, can you still know that it is not the preferable course of action?

This is your task as a caring human, trying their best to navigate this world in a 'good' way. If you can't intellectually justify a moral intuition, it can pay huge dividends to further educate yourself about the issue. The less we know about a topic, the more difficult it is to come to moral decisions which align with our values. Most of my moral values have justifications which reside in ideals of equality, equity, wellbeing etc. But I transgress these morals all the time, simply by maintaining the lifestyle I enjoy. (Cont..)

I see my task as being to reduce these transgressions over time; to find ways to contribute to wellbeing and minimise harm as I find the means to do so. I can always do more, but I don't, so I resign myself to improvement rather than perfection. I can't say if this is the approach to you, but I find it gives me meaning even in times when I find myself ambivalent, disconsolate and exhausted by everything else. If you hold a value that you cannot justify, even by a goal such as 'fairness' or 'harm-minimisation'; it is definitely worth interrogating. It may be a value that you need to change.

Back to the beginning when all was (not) well? 🤔

ofc i can justify my moral intuition to myself @Futilitarian in any number of ways. but people keep acting contrary to it, with no obvious intent to change, so obviously they disagree (or are morally insane)

All you can do is try your best to persuade people, but this is often impossible. Most of us find ourselves in conflict at some point with others about moral questions. You just have to accept this and do your best to live a life a close to your values as possible. One thing I have learned recently though, is that it is possible to have meaningful friendships with people who possess moral views at odds with your own. This may even be healthy.

i am not willing to accept it is a reasonable conflict @Futilitarian and for that reason i do not accept that anyone is moral. either that or i decide that some people are superficially moral. like she beats him but not that badly

It's quite possible that according to your standards no-one is moral, including yourself. IMHO the challenge is to learn to live with this fact; to use this challenge to move you in positive, rather than negative directions.

@Futilitarian i believe i met, and would like to continue to meet, the minimum requirements necessary to claim "i am moral". but it is just a preference now. see what i mean?

god, do i sound like a nazi.

i guess i am not on trial for war crimes, at least

Okay. That's a great start. It sounds as though you see yourself as a morally good person. No. You don't sound like a Nazi.

morality is not generally seen as a preference. it is not that "i would prefer to do the right thing" it is that "i believe i am only justified in acting this way"

It sounds like you can justify your beliefs then.

i felt i could.