Even if they haven’t done Upanayanam, the blood of their forefathers still runs in them. They still have the ability to take up arms. You have to prevent Varnasankara that’s all.

rules never become obsolete. only societies that stop following them do. there is never a time when 100% people followed scriptural rules. Should we throw out rules because 1/100 people don't follow them ? should we throw them out if 50/100 people don't follow them? How about 99/100 ? where do you draw the line. The answer is - you don't. Even if 100 people don't follow the rule, the rule should exist. what happens is - slowly as the no. of people following it diminishes, as does no. of people enforcing it, so does quality of life - you can see people complaining about corruption, anarchy etc.

"How do we resolve this dilemma in modern times?" - where is the dilemma at all ? the so-called dilemma only occurs because you're trying to change the law to fit society than other way around. People are flawed, law is not. As Swami Vivekananda aptly put "don't try to reduce the ideal because you can't live up to it". There is no point in creating a new law to fit those who don't follow laws. Bhagavan just lets people do whatever they want and lets consequences of karma deal with transgressors. cos the consequences are seemingly less painful than following rules for most people nowadays.

@mar "where is the dilemma at all? the so-called dilemma only occurs because you're trying to change the law to fit society than other way around." - The dilemma is that kshatriyas and vaishyas are extinct, not merely that they don't follow the rules. What I'm saying is that kshatriyas and vaishyas do not exist anymore. So if we follow this ancient scriptural rule, then this means that modern India should not have any army or agriculture. Is this what you are advocating?

@mar And secondly you are wrong that these "rules are eternal". Rules aren't eternal, especially these societal rules. They change over time, and there is considerable internal evidence from the dharma shastras themselves that they were edited by pandits over thousands of years to account for changes in society like the existence of hundreds of mixed castes, what jobs brahmins can take up in adverse financial situations, etc. This is why the dharma shastras have internal contradictions, such allowing dvija marriage with shudra women, but then later on saying it's prohibited.

@Adiyarkku "They still have the ability to take up arms." - They don't. "Vratya kshatriyas" have their own specific duties that do not include taking up arms. The dharma shastras claim that only kshatriyas who have done upanayanam can take up arms. "You have to prevent Varnasankara that’s all." - It's already happened. Anyone claiming to be a kshatriya is probably a fraud. Also modern India has all these made up castes like "Reddy". We don't know anyone's caste anymore.

@mar Apastamba dharma sutra says shudras can cook for dvijas. But Vedanta Desikan in the rahasya traya sara has said that this only applies to previous yugas when shudras were much more sattvic. Also niyoga has been banned in kali yuga. So we can see that rules have changed to account for inevitable, irreversible, and impossible changes in society. How can someone follow a rule that is impossible to follow because Bhagavan himself has made it impossible through changing the world? For example, if the sun gets destroyed, then we cannot do sandhyavandanam, even though the shastra says to do it.

@mar Tell me which caste is "software developer" caste, "IT specialist", or "engineer"? There are none, because the scriptures were written in the bronze age, not in modern times. So does this mean Indians should not work in modern technology? India and Indians should not use modern technology or have modern infrastructure? Computers are "adharmic"? And our acharyas today do not recommend following professions of varnashrama. Velukkudi krishnan swami and other acharyas have just said to follow our modern careers while doing our nitya karmas and bhagavat seva.

@mar And our acharyas say this because the material duties change with time, but the spiritual duties, like veda adhyayana and nitya karmas, do not change.

"So we can see that rules have changed to account for inevitable, irreversible, and impossible changes in society" - already dealt with this here. "This is why the dharma shastras have internal contradictions, such allowing dvija marriage with shudra women, but then later on saying it's prohibited" - there are different rules for each yuga. it doesn't mean the rules changed WITH time. the rules were set up AHEAD of time.

"For example, if the sun gets destroyed, then we cannot do sandhyavandanam, even though the shastra says to do it." - correct, it means we are in the consequence stage of karma. the only thing to do is face it, until bhagavan resets yugas. it's like a car going full speed whose steering wheel we have purposely decided to throw away, or hide in the trunk. the best we can do is watch it coast until it crashes.. of course you can always raise your hand to let bhagavan lift you off before it does. of course, there are jagadgurus who can reinstall the steering wheel for a bit.

"Tell me which caste is "software developer" caste, "IT specialist", or "engineer"? - well, which caste was the stable boys in mahabharat ? how about the princess' companion girls ? the surnames 'reddy' or 'rayar' or 'nadar' or etc. are just clan names whose varna can be traced back to vaishya or kshatriya several hundred years ago, just as 'tripathi' or 'dwivedi' are brahmin clans denoting no. of vedas learned by ancestors. they have mixed now, so they do mixed professions. just as Suta drove chariots (mix of brahmin advice and kshatrya valor) for real kshatriyas.

Computers are "adharmic"? - Shastras do not talk about iPhone or Teslas either. does not mean they are adharmik (or dharmik). It just means shastras do not care what people do, because people do not care what they do. As the answer in my first link aptly puts it - "All laws arose in the Krita age ; all have vanished in the Kali age.". It just means - do whatever your ancestors did, OR whatever you want, because that's what most people in kali yug are going to do anyway. and beware that it will inevitably lead to a breakneck speed crash. the only way out is nama sankirtan and/or surrender.

@mar "the rules were set up AHEAD of time." - Some of the rules may have been set up ahead of time, but not every rule, because shastra doesn't explain how to solve every societal problem.

"because shastra doesn't explain how to solve every societal problem" - manu already solved all of them. you just don't know it. As the saying goes - whatever Manu advises, eat that like medicine

@mar Shastras don't explain what people should do when there is complete varna sankara in society, when castes are completely gone from society, what mlecchas should do, what we should do in modern times with modern technology, etc. The shastras are written for an ancient time, it assumes people will ride horses and use bows and arrows, not cars and machine guns. Our acharyas have created new rules to adopt to modern times.

"Shastras don't explain what people should do when there is complete varna sankara in society" - correct, because at that point rules have already been broken. it's like asking why shastras don't write rules for how to navigate traffic when nobody stops at red light. the answer is - either follow the rules mentioned earlier, or crash and find out. btw, the duties for many mixed castes are already given in shastras. computer engineer would fit in one of those buckets even if not explicitly mentioned.

@mar Also, in very ancient times (bronze age) when society was simpler there were only 4 castes: priest/academic, soldier/police, farmer/businessman/cattle-tender, and servant. That's why the Vedas mention 4 castes. Later on due to inter-caste mixing in society and new jobs they created new castes like Suta (horse breeder/chariot maker), Taksha (carpenter), etc. Modern society has so many more jobs than "priest, warrior, farmer, laborer" that the shastra says.

@Ikshvaku - this is deja vu - hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/45520/…. lack of mention of a particular name/place/animal/thing does not invalidate or reduce the might of shastras.

@mar I'm not saying it invalidates everything, I'm just saying it invalidates those portions that aren't applicable today. For example, vaishyas don't exist anymore, so anyone can take up farming today.

@Ikshvaku - it doesn't mean shastras accept that anyone can take farming today. it just means that IF anyone takes up farming, and they don't happen to be vaishya, they will face the consequences of it. basically everyone in kali is doomed to suffer just by being born. shastras are not going to change just because we are unable to live up to its standards. but they do give an easy way out - nama sankirtan.

@mar So then no one should take up farming, business, military, etc. We both know what the consequence of that is. Also this theory has a flaw: if no one can take up a job if that caste doesn't exist, then this means we should do inter-caste marriages to breed new castes that can take up these jobs. So if there are no chandalas, then we should have brahmin women breed with shudra men to make chandalas? Also shastra says only 4 castes existed at the beginning of time (brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya, shudra), not hundreds of mixed castes. So who was doing the masonry and construction?

So we can see that this theory doesn't even work from a sociological and demographics standpoint.

@Adiyarkku @mar @Ikshvaku Continue discussion here.

@mar And then if some new job arises, we need a specific caste to do that job because each caste has a specific job. And if that caste doesn't exist, then that job can't be done unless you have breeding programs. This social system is untenable in civilization because it doesn't work due to restrictions in demographics.

If this system is followed, it is doomed to failure because it will lead to "failed states", much more failed than communism, marxism, socialism, etc. And this system was actually never used in history either because shastra says only the four castes existed in the beginning, and "mixed castes" like "carpenter" (Taksha) came much letter due to inter-breeding between castes.

So where were the carpenters, masonry workers, etc. when only those 4 castes existed? We know buildings existed during that time so someone was building them.