Related: comment thread in What should a Jew learn regularly?
In the end of the Shulchan Aruch Harav Yoreh Deah, chelek ה, the Alter Rebbe has a wonderful exposition on the laws of Talmud Torah. In פרק ב, he talks about the obligation we have not to forget our Torah learning. I don't know that I'...
@Heshy I hear, and you're making a good point. But every yeshiva I've ever known (I've been in Chabad yeshivos too, a little) does not do this on any part of their learning. Learn, chazer!, learn, chazer!, chazer! - Okay, now it's time to start the new masechta, Sure you can chazer the previous masechta, you should!, but don't take too much of your time for it - we need to focus on the new masechta now.
@robev, a link please?
@robev Thanks much!
@Fred Thank you, Fred. But see my comments there!
@Dov , Fred I know these are programs that emphasize chazarah, and they are at least similar to what we have been discussing. Beautiful. I still don't see that they accept what the Shulchan Aruch Harav is pushing: a clear commitment that you are going to make sure you remember everything from the past, even if your seder going forward is drastically interrupted. - so that your pace is limited by your abilities to remember.
@shmosel that is a good point. We tread a narrow path. I think, though, that mostly we choose one side of the path.
@Dov, on mishnayos I definitely hear that what the Rebbe is suggesting is actually 100% do-able. I recently started a program where they do one mishnah a day. I have found that having learned a mishnah, I can chazer it in fifteen seconds, and a whole perek in a couple of minutes. We have done seven masechtos so far, in Taharos (!), 40-odd perakim, and I found I can - as long as I don't let myself forget what they're about - chazer all seven of them in a couple of weeks, without a true seder, basically during waiting times at davening. Mishnayos are designed for chazarah.
It's a very exciting idea to me: I could actually come to know mishnayos, at least some of them. Whereas the same program without the chazarah is, A mishnah a day, see them again in 11 years. A big difference.
@shmosel I hasten to note that I didn't claim I was memorizing. Beautiful, but all I have been trying to do is, know what the mishnah is saying when I read it. Simple translation, אוקימתא, any straight explanation needed to make sense of it. Some mishnayos are just readable, some need a "post-it note" attached to make them readable.
By me, the key idea is that you are not allowed to continue to learn further until you have safeguarded everything you learned till now. It's a balance; the Alter Rebbe is saying (to me) that everything I have ever seen chooses that balance wrong.
@MichoelR Good question. In your 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence you cite chapter 5 from Hilchot Talmud Torah. There is no such chapter. It should read, “Chapter 2, Sief 8”.
Also, the answer to your concern expressed in this question is actually answered in Sief 6 of the same chapter. We are supposed to know our true state and standing (to be a בעל חשבון) and not to assume we are more than we actually are. This is in keeping with the general principle that many tried to follow the path of the Rashbi and failed (that their learning was their occupation). They learn beyond their capacity and are impoverished. G-d doesn’t place a burden upon you that you cannot handle.
@YaacovDeane I don't think that addresses my exact concern. The Rebbe is giving a very specific psak here, which choice to make in a particular situation. Stop now and review, don't continue to the next topic. That's a choice, and he's poskining on what is the right choice. It isn't a question of spiritual level, it's a question of what's the right thing to do. I think I see [every yeshiva in the world AFAIK] making a different choice, and I'd like to know how to explain that.
@MichoelR In my opinion, as I have learned this subject, your understanding is incorrect. See Bartinura to Avot 3:16:12 quoting Avodah Zarah 3a. A good rule of thumb is, if your understanding finds the vast majority of the Jewish world (and even more so, the observant, G-d fearing Jewish world) culpable (חייב), that is a strong clue that you have misunderstood something. And that is, in general the path of all Gedolei Yisroel. Only blessings my friend.
@MichoelR Even in your quotation in Hebrew, “ח וגם מי שיודע בעצמו שהוא שכחן גדול כו׳”, that opening letter is the letter Chet, which is gematria 8. It isn’t an abbreviation for חמש.
I see now, with your last clarification, what your intention is. It might be clearer, because you actually cite Yoreh Deah, to say, "Shulchan Aruch HaRav, Volume 5, Yoreh Deah, Chapter 2, Sief 8. For any reader, they will be able to pinpoint exactly where you are referencing regardless of which edition they are looking at.
I hope that you understood what I was pointing out in Chapter 2, Sief 6. The vast majority of people fall outside the obligation for a whole variety of reasons mentioned previously by the Alter Rebbe in the context of compulsion. So to begin with, those who would need to be concerned are a very, very small number of highly exceptional individuals. Your observation, that from your view most Yeshivot are not putting this level into practice, speaks more to their particular audience and the standing of their students. For the majority of the population, G-d wants us to work for a living, in th…
Discussion between MichoelR and Yaaco…
Discussion between MichoelR and Yaaco…