@bobflux what do you mean by "They also observe that all their jabbed liberal acquaintances got it at least three times after being injected, which is kinda hilarious." Are you suggesting it's common to get covid as a result of the vaccine? I've not heard that from anyone who got vaccinated. In my experience most just got a little sore spot around the injection location and after a few days it would be gone.

@JJJ I think they mean the vaccines don't prevent COVID. Regrettable, and no thanks to the humans who chose to become mutation reservoirs, but not really a basis for opposition back in 2020

Ah fair, that kinda makes sense.

the usual mentality that I see is along the lines of "you got vaccinated and you got COVID so HAHA YOU WERE TRICKED, LIBERAL! I was right to disobey the government all along! Bow before my superior intellect! "

@user253751 hmm, I've not really heard that one personally. Among the people I talk the sentiment is more like 'oh, good you are still vaccinated, you're less likely to get really sick even if you get some symptoms'.

@JJJ don't forget "now you're vaccinated the pandemic is over and you don't need to wear masks or avoid crowds"

@JJJ in my part of Europe the number of hospitalizations per day is about the same as it was in all the previous big waves. perhaps fewer people are dying of COVID per day... because it's put down as pneumonia, stroke or unexplained illness!

@user253751 I guess the thing to look at would be excess deaths. I don't know if that's a common metric, but this one shows how it's measured and reported for the Netherlands. For this year it mostly seems close to the baseline.

@JJJ looks above normal to me now. you can clearly see 3 large spikes and 2 medium ones including the current one.

there are bad outcomes besides death, such as permanent brain damage

But yeah, at some point I think it's just not worth staying in permanent lockdown. That's basically what they did in China and from what I can tell as a relative outsider it's taking a high toll on the economy but also on mental health and so.

right. we should just eliminate the virus and move on

@user253751 how would you eliminate a virus?

1) don't spread it 2) repeat

Honestly, I don't think that's realistic after it has already spready this much. Is that a strategy we've used successfully for any other endemic viral diseases that transfer through the air?

You've deliberately narrowed down the categories until only SARS-2 fits in the narrow category. You could also ask: Is it a strategy we've used successfully for any other viral diseases? (yes: smallpox; polio)

@user253751 With polio, isn't it because those vaccines are also effective at preventing disease transmission? I'm not sure about small pox. The reason I narrowed it down is because it would require the vast majority of people to stop spreading, that's just not realisitic.

If people don't spread a virus, it goes away. Doesn't matter how they don't spread it.

And it's generally a pretty good idea to not spread it. You can suffer permanent brain damage if you spread it.

And permanent immune system damage, like AIDS.

@user253751 sure, but how are you going to get all people to agree to stop spreading it? Getting vaccinated is super accessible now and a significant number of people aren't even willing to that. Getting vaccinated is not enough to achieve the goal you're proposing. That's why I think it's unrealistic.

1) Find out why people aren't even willing to wear masks 2) Fix it

@user253751 Because masks are annoying to wear, if you want good ones they are somewhat expensive, you need to renew them, it doesn't provide full protection, it doesn't necessarily protect yourself as much, etc. In my mind, masks are a much greater burden than getting vaccinated, maybe depending on how often you go out where there are other people.

@JJJ I say the same thing about underpants

and regular pants

I disagree, there's a huge selection of very comfortable underwear

same for pants

if you want good ones they are somewhat expensive, you need to renew them, they don't provide full protection, they don't necessarily protect yourself as much

N95 masks work well, unlike vaccinations

And how many places actually required N95 masks at any point during the pandemic? I travelled quite a bit even during the pandemic and the only place where I've seen it required that I've been to was in Germany (or rather one state where they hadn't abolished it yet when most of the others had). Everyone was wearing a mask but some just wore cloth or inferior cheap masks.

I still think pants are different, they're an investment, they're not something you throw away after wearing them a few times.

But yeah, if you want to go for mask mandates, I wish you good luck. I don't think you'll be able to get it implemented on a scale that would have meaningful effect.

@JJJ All the sane places required N95 masks. Which is to say, not many.

Well I remember wearing it on some trains in Germany. Also remember that the platforms and stations were super crowded and almost nobody was wearing a mask there. It was summer, overcrowded station (they had the 9 euro ticket thing going on) and so it ended up being kinda warm.

sounds like trains in Germany are one of the few sane places left

I think they (Baden Württemberg) abolished the mask mandate (for public transport) shortly after I left, and other states within Germany had already done so at that time. At this point I don't even bring masks anymore when I travel, nobody seems to require or expect it. Personally I don't think masking is the way to go either.

They're very effective. More than vaccines.

Is the point to avoid getting COVID, or is it to fulfil legal requirements and bureaucracy?

For me personally the point is not to get too sick. The vaccines do that sufficiently for me. For me masks are an inconvenience but I'll put up with it for a small amount of time if there's something good on the other end. For example, I'm okay to keep the mask on for 24 hours of travelling if that means I get to go to a nice place for a week without many restrictions.

I'd say I'm pretty flexible, during covid I quarantined for 16 days or so (in a government facility) to have a few weeks in a covid free place. I would expect most people to be more reluctant to take on such restrictions, especially for a prolonged period of time.

@user253751 Also, the vaccines are a minor inconvenience once or a few times a year if you get boosters. Masks are an inconvenience all the time while you wear them.